Another instance of €ircon stealing calls!

govinda

Bit of a long story, but this information may be helpful to other people considering upgrading their phone line.

I'm an Esat BT (Carrier Pre-Select) residential customer and have been from the time it became available - 32 counties charged at the same rate has reduced my phone bill to a third of what I'd pay €ircon.

As a result of having my line upgraded to "hi"-speed (ISDN) by eircom last Friday, my Carrier Pre-Select agreement with ESAT was cancelled without my knowledge or approval and my calls are once more going through the incumbent. I discovered this was the case by reading an FAQ on the UTV Internet website.

I called €ircon, and after being left on hold for some time, the first-line customer service rep. confirmed that we were now with them again. I asked why I hadn't been told about this and she couldn't answer. I spoke to her supervisor who tried to tell me it was my fault for ordering on the €ircon website instead of calling them - I told her sorry, but Internet service is not an excuse for second-rate service or misleading a customer. €ircon sent me two auto-response emails in response to this single order, one of them could have included this information. Ideally this information should be included on their website along with all the marketing blah about how ISDN is the latest thing, and not just the last resort higher speed option that is available to rural Irish customers. The supervisors response to the fact that this information is not available on their website, and that I had to read about this on the UTV Internet website was "No comment, I will feedback to management". I asked her how she would feel if she found out her calls had been hijacked by a rival carrier and again "No comment". What I cannot understand, and what she could not explain is that at no point did the telephone number that I use for voice calls change and I cannot see any reason therefore to cancel my CPS agreement. Thankfully I found this out before a massive €ircon bill arrived, but that seems to be just luck rather than consumer protection! EsatBT estimate it will be up to three weeks before my calls go through them again, somehow I suspect this delay is not of their making!

Having spoken to both EsatBT customer care and to a friend who works part-time for EsatBT making customer-satisfaction calls, this is not an isolated incident and plenty of customers have complained about it. I hope they have taken their complaints further than €ircon.

I consider this a(nother) blatant abuse of €ircons monopoly in the market, and have emailed Comreg and Dermot Ahern, Minister for Communications to see what they can do about this. Hope this information helps someone else as well!

seamus

Eircom sales are scum. I've said it many times before. They will take every opportunity they can to defraud the customer and sign them up for things they didn't ask for. It's eircom's fault for paying ridiculously high commission and having no disciplinary procedures in place when something like this does happen. Quite simply, eircom doesn't care. For every one customer that has been illegally brought back to eircom, and complains, there are five more who aren't complaining.

Let us know how you get on with Comreg. They should support you, as eircom aren't allowed take you back without your signature,

Sleipnir

"No comment"

You really have got to love their customer service.

seamus

Just double-checked their online T's & C's. There's nothing that says that if you get an ISDN line you are obliged to switch to eircom or to continue making calls with them. Probably an oversight on their part. Tough really.

eth0_

I remember about a year or two ago I rang them to enquire about getting ISDN. At no point did I actually say "I now wish to order this product", but they still went ahead, I only knew when I got a call to schedule the installation! And of course our CPS was changed from UTV to eircom at the same time.

Urban Weigl

It's called "slamming". Happened to me once as well. It seems like ComReg just don't care.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
It's called "slamming". Happened to me once as well.

Me too. It seems to be SOP for Eircom, as opposed to some sort of administrative mixup.

It seems like ComReg just don't care.

There's a shocker.

eth0_

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
It's called "slamming". Happened to me once as well. It seems like ComReg just don't care.

Comreg are absolutely sh1t. No one is scared of them. I had huge amounts of trouble with an o2 contract in the uk and when I refused to pay my bill until they corrected it they tried to charge me a disconnection fee and when I refused to pay that they tried to take me to court (all the while I was never able to speak to anyone in o2 with a brain, just idiots in their call centre who never logged my calls and never got managers to call me back).

I was at the end of my tether so I contacted OTELO who are a regulator, and within a week I had a letter telling me to forget all the charges, my contract had been cancelled (but no explanation or apology). OTELO, it would seem, have much more power and clout than comreg!

VeeEmmy

When it happened to me, I learned that it is standard practice. They "accidentally" steal people all the time. They know full well that it is happening. Maybe after the AIB "slip-ups" and the O2 and Vodafone overcharges are addressed, someone (ComReg? HA!) will go after eircom for their systematic billing errors, slamming, etc.

My experience...(click link)

If you haven't re-established your CPS to Esat, do it immediately, in writing.

If €ircon have charged you for internet calls which would have been "free" if you had still been with Esat, €ircon owe you money. You can get it back.

Call eircom billing and dispute the charges. Use the word "dispute." Request that it is noted that the amount owed (or paid) is in "IN DISPUTE. " Teminate direct debit immediately if it was a bundle of money. I made the mistake of not cancelling direct debit and they subsequently took my money!

Call back in a couple of days to be sure that it was noted. (They usually don't note it, I have found!) It takes at least two tries to get anything recorded correctly.

If you already paid the amount, inform them that you are due a refund.

Use the word "slammed" in registered correspondence with ComReg (cc eircom billing, and JG Ryan - see link above).

If you have the letter eircom sent you when you first changed to them, make a few copies. It is evidence that they know you requested the change. Enclose copies with correspondence to them or ComReg, just to let them know you have the paper trail.

Do not be defeated by any letters from them saying they have reviewed your bill and concluded that the calls are recorded accurately! (That's what they said in the first response I received from them - after 4 months of letters.)

I dogged €ircon until I got my money back (over €200). I sent registered letters to the billing dept, JG Ryan and ComReg every time I got an incorrect bill.

Communicate only in writing and only by registered post. Stay on it, don't let it drop. It's the only way to win.

I didn't have the energy to do the small claims bit, but next time they steal my money, I will. (They screwed up my recent move too, but that's another story - I won that one too.)

Do not drift along expecting them to correct the problem. Ring them weekly until it is solved. If it is not solved within a month, call up 1901 again and have them "ESCALATE" the complaint level and intimate that you regret that legal action appears to be necessary. (That escalated my dispute level and it was solved within 24 hours after that!).

It took me EIGHT months to get my bill straightened out. I was too polite. But I did get it straightened out, and did get the full credit due me.

They systematically do this stuff, and most people would rather not hassle with getting their money back, so it pays €ircon to continue to play these tricks. Don't let them get away with it!!

Good luck.

Ban

govinda

Thanks very much for your replies everyone, and especially Ban - I completely agree, it seems that too many people just pay up and eircom get away with it again and again.

I called Comreg this morning, as my email hasn't been replied to yet. Apparently, their consumer division is extremely busy at the moment, I wonder why?! I spoke to a representative who told me that my complaint hadn't been assigned yet, but he would take it over. He was quite helpful but hadn't read my complaint in full. I explained the problem to him and his opinion seemed to be that eircom were entitled to do this without notifying a customer. I queried this as Ofcom in the UK regard 'slamming' as a serious fraud offence and apparently my request will be passed on to the CPS compliance committee. I'll need to wait and see what happens there, but I am prepared to take legal action if needs be.

I also emailed the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs. The ODCA have not yet returned my email but I received the following email from the Dept. of ET&E yesterday:

Thank for your email concerning the issue you have with Eircom. Comreg is
the right authority for your complaint in this case. Although I cannot
comment on the technicality of your complaint, I can however comment on its
contractual aspect. If you get no satisfaction from Comreg, and you feel
that Eircom are in breach of contract, you may seek redress from the Small
Claims Court (a form can be downloaded from the Internet). You have not
specified in your email if you were an ordinary consumer or a business
person. Please note the Small Claims Court is not available to business
people.

I hope this is of assistance.

********* **********
Competition and Consumer Policy Section


My emails to Dermot Ahern have as yet gone unanswered.

Separately, by haranguing eircom on 1901 it appears my calls are going through EsatBT once more and Esat confirmed that with a traffic report for my line this morning. So there will be 2-3 days of eircom calls on the bill, but thats 2-3 days too many for me.
I arrived home yesterday to find my first piece of 'winback' material from Eircom - "why pay two bills?" - I rang them immediately to be removed from their list. I find it hilarious that their winback department would try getting me to sign back up when I have been calling their customer service line on a daily basis to complain. Roll on single billing!

Will keep you all updated on what Comreg come back to me with, anyway.

govinda

Well, Comreg just mailed me back.


Dear *******,


I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email below and our telecon earlier today.
ComReg has approached EsatBT in relation to the matter and requested their response. _There is currently a manual process in place where eircom notify, in this case EsatBT, of a line upgrade. If eircom do not receive any response from the other service provider they transfer the customer’s call traffic back to their network.
The CPS code of practice which I referred to in our telecon this morning is an industry document and I have confirmed with our compliance team that it is not publicly available and therefore I cannot issue you with a copy of this document. However, if you have any comments please respond to me directly and we will address any of your concerns.

Best Regards,
*************
Consumer Management


My reply, which was CC'd to Dermot Aherns two email addresses and the Dept. of Enterprise, Trade and Employment:


Dear Sir

Thank you for your response. I am disgusted by the fact that there is no legislation/obligation in place to have the customer informed by the incumbent, from whom they are _forced_ to order lines. It is not intuitive for a customer to check with their CPS carrier before having an eircom line installed if their telephone number is not going to change.

Eircom have apparently now rerouted my calls to EsatBT, but there are calls between the 18th and the 21st of June on the eircom network which I did _not_ give my permission for them to carry. I cannot understand a regulated system that allows the incumbent to steal back customers without their informing the customer of the fact. I cannot comprehend this happening in the UK, where Ofcom ensure that the CPS guidelines are freely available. I have been denied access to the CPS code of practice, which supposedly is here to encourage competition and protect the consumer. It seems to me that the Irish version is here to protect Eircoms position in the market.

It is beyond my belief that the blame for this situation could lie with EsatBT. The important fact here is that at _ no point_ did I give my consent for Eircom to cancel my CPS agreement - by writing, by phone or in their online terms and conditions, this was _never_ mentioned to me. Is there any protection afforded me from having my calls stolen back by eircom again in the future? It appears not.

At this stage, my disgust with the state of fixed line telecommunications and Internet access in this country is such that I am seriously considering cancelling my fixed line service entirely and moving to mobile only. Irish consumers pay the highest line rental in Europe and have absolutely no choice in that matter - or so Eircom would like us to believe. The apparent lack of consumer protection and rights in this area is forcing me to consider the alternatives.

govinda

"Response" from Comreg to my last mail:


Dear *********
_

Thank you for your email.
ComReg has recorded your comments and will respond to you in due course.

Best Regards,_

*************
Consumer Management

I've received a 'read receipt' from Dermot Aherns office, same as for my first email, but no response as yet.

Eircom will not let me dispute the 3 days of calls until my bill is issued next month. For once I will actually be waiting on my phone bill with bated breath!

Our man in Havana

Don't let them away with it!

VeeEmmy

Originally posted by govinda
"
.....
ComReg has recorded your comments and will respond to you in due course.

.....

Sounds like Consumer Management has been watching too much Big Brother!

Your letter is excellent.

There is precedent for them to credit you for costs for calls that you would not have incurred had you remained with Esat (ie, internet calls, diff in cost for regular calls, etc). If they didn't know they were wrong to slam people, they would not refund that money. Of that I am verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry sure!!

Stay on it! and good luck.

Ban

govinda

Thanks very much Bond and Ban!
I'm definitely keeping on it, I will contact Comreg on a daily basis until the bill is issued to see if it can be sorted before the bill arrives.
In the meantime, I've mailed Dermot Ahern again and received this response from his private secretary


Dear *******,
_
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email below, the contents of which will be brought to the Minister’s attention.

_

Yours sincerely

***********
Private Secretary.


I've also emailed the "e-minister' Mary Hanafin, as her Information Society Policy includes the following to "co-ordinate policy to ensure the continued development of the Information Society in Ireland" - after all, its hardly conducive to development if €ircon customers are left so cold by dealing with them and the telecoms regulator that they contemplate cancelling their accounts.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=175

This time last week (hi-speed was installed last Friday), I would have considered myself wise to the eircom agenda/tricks - goes to show that there's no limits to what they'll try.

govinda

Was very happy to receive a call from Mary Hanafins office today, her representative read my email in full and was very helpful and supportive of my complaint.

Although ComReg and Minister Ahern are the right people to deal with it, he told me, it does appear from my communication with them that they are not interested in solving the problem. A letter from Ministers Hanafins office will be sent to both Minister Ahern and Comreg today, to encourage them to resolve this complaint for me. Would be nice as neither Minister Ahern nor his office have replied and surprise, surprise, Comreg haven't contacted me either. The representative promised to maintain contact with me until the issue is resolved, so I'm v. happy that I contacted Minister Hanafin. Time to mail ComReg (again!) now.

LFCFan

it's unbelievable that in the 21st century we have to deal with politicians to get satisfaction with our phone company. Can u imagine someone in America sending a mail to their Governer because AT&T pissed them off.

govinda

It is unreal. As I see it, this situation is of the governments making - they sold off the infrastructure, funded by the taxpayer and put a weak regulator in to manage the "industry" - and so they should definitely be the ones to resolve it.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by govinda
Time to mail ComReg (again!) now.

Fair play to you.
ComReg's attitude towards us consumers, who are paying dearly for this outfit, is dismal. Big words on their website about "The Consumer" and no interest to act for the protection of the consumer.
Bobby Hannon is the director for consumer affairs in comreg and it's no harm to email him: bobby.hannon@comreg.ie

When more people take a stance against Comreg's "performance", it will make a difference. Your publishing your story here is important. Comreg, the DCMNR and various journalists are visiting the forum. Our gov and specifically Hanafin said they would listen to people from now on...

P.

From [url]www.comwreck.com:[/url]

govinda

Dear *******,

_

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your emails of 25 June and 2 July.

_

ComReg has approached EsatBT on your behalf and we understand that they have been in contact with you directly. EsatBT will be issuing ComReg with a response on Tuesday 6 July at which point I will contact you further. _We have also approached eircom and await their response on the matter.


Best Regards,

*******************
Consumer Management


Needless to say that the 6th of July came and went without a word and so this afternoon I sent the email below to the ComReg rep handling my complaint and cc'd Bobby Hannon (thanks for that info eircomtribunal!). The rep, as per usual, has not replied directly.

My email:


Dear Sir

Do you have an update on my complaint at this stage?

My calls are once more going through EsatBT, but I organised that myself and that was not what my complaint concerned. My complaint was that the incumbent (Eircom) was allowed to cancel my CPS agreement without my knowledge or consent - written or oral. They are not required to inform the customer of this fact. All correspondence in this case is included below in any case.

I am quite concerned by the fact that I made this complaint to ComReg on the 21st June and am not receiving updates unless I chase them up myself. I have read on the Internet that ComReg are not interested in investigating incidents of slamming by the incumbent but I am not content to have my complaint ignored or brushed off which is the impression I am being given. There is clearly no consumer protection for CPS customers in this country.

As yet, the only company to contact me has been EsatBT - if the regulator does not have the power to handle a complaint against Eircom, the company which hijacked my calls, I would appreciate it if you would inform me of this fact so that I can take further action.

xxxxxxxxxxx


I received my first contact from €ircon not 10 minutes later.


Dear ********

I am e-mailing you to confirm that we are in receipt of the complaint that you have logged with Comreg and I will be in contact with you over the next 1 - 2 working days with a resolution to the case.

I apologise for the delay in replying to you and I can assure you that I will resolve this for you asap

With Thanks
**********
Escalation Manager
Eircom Customer Care

I'm getting pretty tired of this at this stage but equally more and more determined not to let it go.

spongebob

Demand full reimbusement of all calls billed by Eircom, you simply had no contract with Eircom to carry them and cannot be asked to pay for them in the circumstances.

You merely asked for a change of access channel from POTS to ISDN which is not the same thing at all.

Comreg have been inept in their enforcement of the CPS regulations , they would rather issue snotty directions on advertising standards than to do anything.

M

BigEejit

Fair play Govinda ... hang in there and its great you are letting us know how you are getting on ... we just know it will end in tears for €ircom when you see someone gutsy enough to bring them to task and not be put off by the ineptitude and disinterest of the regulator

govinda

Thanks guys. Still no word from ComReg themselves and no further updates from Eircom so I mailed Bobby Hannon directly this morning.


Dear Sir

My complaint (full details below) is as yet unresolved. I received my first contact from Eircom yesterday, having made this complaint to ComReg on the 21st June. They will require another 1-2 working days to answer me. This delay astounds me. I intend making a request under the Freedom of Information Act to determine exactly what action ComReg has been taking in my case, why it has dragged on for so long and why my emails are no longer being responded to by the ComReg representative 'handling' my complaint. If needs be, I will make a complaint to the Ombudsman who I understand can investigate ComReg under the terms of the 1980 Ombudsman Act.

The ComReg website is full of Consumer Protection 'propaganda' and yet, Eircom have been slamming customers who have requested a simple change of access channel from POTS to ISDN for the past 3 years (at least) and ComReg have not done a single thing to help the consumer. Were it not for my accidental discovery of this policy on the UTV Internet website, I would still be unaware that I had been slammed until a large Eircom bill arrived at the end of this month. Where is the consumer protection in that? Where is the consumer protection in the fact that the same ComReg representative told me by telephone that there is nothing to stop Eircom slamming me again in the future? Reading the ComReg press releases, it seems that the extent of consumer protection in the CPS sector of the market amounts to advertising regulation - surely a function of the ASAI?

Elsewhere in the world, slamming is regarded as illegal. What I want is a requirement for Eircom to advise customers on their website and by telephone at time of order placement that they will be cancelling your CPS agreement if you upgrade your line and to require the customers written consent to do that. The ComReg CPS 'Consumer Guide' is lacking a warning about this practice too. Is the regulator truly powerless to impose such a requirement on the incumbent?

Regards,

********

govinda

Reply from Bobby Hannan


Dear xxxxxxxx,

When ComReg replied to your previous e-mails, we had expected to have a response from both EsatBT and Eircom earlier this week.__ We have only this afternoon received a response from EsatBTand have yet to have a reply from Eircom despite a number of reminders.__
The inter-operator arrangements relating to CPS have been collectively agreed by the industry and our investigation on foot of your complaint will be to establish whether those arrangements were followed._ Until the operator responses arrive, ComReg cannot complete its investigation.__ __In the meantime, eircomhave told us that would contact you to resolve the issue.__ If this does not happen by Monday evening, can you let me know?
Irrespective of the outcome of that investigation, ComReg is currently examining those arrangements to establish whether they adequately serve the interests of consumers and promote competition in the market for telephony services.____ In advance of any change which ComReg may require to those arrangements or to any changes which the industry collectively agrees on a voluntary basis, ComReg is considering imposing a requirement which would result in full process transparency to ensure that customers do not have their CPS arrangements cancelled without prior notice.___ A requirement along the lines suggested in the final paragraph of your e-mail is one possibility which is being considered.__ However, you will be aware that ComReg is required to follow a statutory notice and consultation procedure before imposing any requirement of such a nature.

_
Regards,

Bobby Hannan
Manager - Consumer Management and International Affairs_



In doubtful anticipation of €ircon contacting me with any kind of resolution......


Dear Sir

As yet, I have had no further response from ComReg, EsatBT or Eircom with the exception of your email.

I would appreciate it if you could please address the points and questions raised in the second paragraph of my email in your capacity as the manager of consumer management. As you are no doubt aware, slamming is illegal in most other countries.

Regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by govinda
Reply from Bobby Hannan


Dear xxxxxxxx,
In advance of any change which ComReg may require to those arrangements or to any changes which the industry collectively agrees on a voluntary basis, ComReg is considering imposing a requirement which would result in full process transparency to ensure that customers do not have their CPS arrangements cancelled without prior notice.___ A requirement along the lines suggested in the final paragraph of your e-mail is one possibility which is being considered.__ However, you will be aware that ComReg is required to follow a statutory notice and consultation procedure before imposing any requirement of such a nature.
Regards,
Bobby Hannan
Manager - Consumer Management and International Affairs_



Dear Sir
I would appreciate it if you could please address the points and questions raised in the second paragraph of my email in your capacity as the manager of consumer management.

Regards,
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Govinda,

In fairness to Bobby Hannan – and we aren't friends – I think he has already gone out of his way to take up the points you were making. You've achieved whatever you could have achieved with ComReg at this point and time with this issue. Congratulation to you and fair play to Hannan.

P.

govinda

I think, with all due respect to you, that if everyone were to adopt that way of thinking then ComReg would never have to toughen up on slamming or any of the other problems in the Irish telecommunications market. My complaint hasn't been closed, and there's nothing stopping another customer from ending up in the same boat (without the benefit of accidentally finding out, as I did) tomorrow morning. I don't consider Mr Hannans response particularly helpful as regards the consumer protection aspect TBH.

I don't think it too much, for example, for their CPS guide to be updated to warn consumers - this wouldn't require a consultation etc. What happened to me, and what Eircom are doing is fact and people should know in advance. I still believe I have the choice over who carries my phone calls...

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by govinda
there's nothing stopping another customer from ending up in the same boat (without the benefit of accidentally finding out, as I did) tomorrow morning.

Fair point. Perhaps I have gone all soft in the brain...

I don't consider Mr Hannans response particularly helpful as regards the consumer protection aspect TBH.

You put me in the strange position of defending ComReg: You may have expected more and immediate reaction, but from my experience I consider the reaction you got to be very fast and positive.

What keeps amazing me is the fact that the other Telecom operators have not taken up this issue and pressed for a resolution. Why should it need the effort and (unpaid) time of a concerned citizen to get this sorted?

I don't think it too much, for example, for their CPS guide to be updated to warn consumers - this wouldn't require a consultation etc. What happened to me, and what Eircom are doing is fact and people should know in advance. I still believe I have the choice over who carries my phone calls...

I'd rather have ComReg sort out the issue than "informing" the public (who is really reading those ComReg guides?) about the mess.
I understand Hannan indicated "In advance of any change...ComReg is considering imposing a requirement.." in his answer to you that they are minded to do something immediately and not wait for consultation and due processes.

P.

sceptre

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
(who is really reading those ComReg guides?)

Just you Peter:)

I only ever read them when you find something funny in one and tell us about it.

govinda

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
You put me in the strange position of defending ComReg: You may have expected more and immediate reaction, but from my experience I consider the reaction you got to be very fast and positive.

Fair enough, sorry if my post seemed confrontational (it wasn't intended so!). I'm annoyed at how long this is dragging on though, considering I'm far from the first person its happened to and it seems to be a 'routine' matter for ComReg that a regulator should be able to fix.

Cabaal

Has there been any further communications between comreg, eircom and yourself?

govinda

ComReg aren't answering my emails, so I'm cc'ing them on everything I send €ircon so that they can't turn around and claim they didn't follow it up because I lost interest - which I'm beginning to think they're all waiting for!

Monday came and went, so I sent this mail to the €ircon escalation department yesterday, cc'ing ComReg


Sir

Can you please provide me with an indication of when you expect this investigation to be complete?

Having made this complaint to Eircom on the 19th June and to ComReg on the 21st, I am finding it difficult to believe that 17 working days have elapsed since I escalated this to the regulator and neither Eircom nor ComReg can resolve this yet.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx



I got the following reply about half an hour ago.


Dear xxxxxxx
_
I apologise about the delay in resolving this case for you and hope to have_a final resolutio to this case for you by the end of this week.
_
Thanks
xxxxxxxxx


Of course, I'm not going to wait for them to contact me on Friday, I'll make contact with them then....will let you know what happens. Thanks.

govinda

Just after my last post, I received the following email from the Eircom escalation department


Dear *********
_
I have now been in contact with the area who deals with customers leaving eircom and returning to eircom for call traffic. They have informed me that your calls returned to eircom on 18/06 following completion of an order to upgrade your line to Isdn.
_
The normal process in a situation like this, is that the Cps code (which signifies the customer's calls are with another carrier) is automatically re-applied to the customer's account once the order is completed. Due to an oversight on eircom's part, this was not done in your case. I apologise about this. I have now highlighted this case to the department who issued this order and I am doing everything in my power to ensure that this does not happen again.
_
Cps was re-applied to your account on 21/06 and when your next bill arrives, I have now problem in crediting the calls that are on that bill to your account. If you contact me when you get your bill, I will issue this credit.
_
I hope this brings this case to a close but if you have any further queries, please don't hesitate in contacting me back.
_
Thanks for your time
***********


OK, so hopefully that is *my* problem solved. However, I'm still p*****d that this could happen in the first place, and is probably happening to all CPS subscribers who upgrade and who maybe aren't as persistent as I am.......


Dear Sir

Thank you for your reply. That solution is acceptable to me and I will contact you again when my bill is issued.

However, I still take issue with the fact that Eircom do not provide any information at all about the CPS agreement being cancelled when the line is upgraded.

Ms. **** *****, supervisor in Eircoms Galway call centre, told me that if I had ordered ISDN by phone that I would be informed of this which leads me to believe that the CPS agreement is not always reinstated automatically. Why is it that this information is not on the Eircom website and not included in the automatic order confirmation emails sent to customers who order via the website? If I were to ask a friend to place an ISDN upgrade order via 1901, would they be informed of this by the representative?

Do you have any comment on the fact that I first became aware of this problem via an FAQ on the UTV Internet website and that if I had not done so, I would only be aware when my Eircom bill arrived at the end of this month? Ms **** (supervisor)was unable to comment on this.

ComReg provide neither access to nor a synopsis of the CPS Industry Guidelines which are supposed to protect the consumer, so I would like to raise these points with you.

Thank you for your assistance.

********

malls

Facinating read.

Thanks for that Govinda.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by govinda
The normal process in a situation like this, is that the Cps code (which signifies the customer's calls are with another carrier) is automatically re-applied to the customer's account once the order is completed.

Rampant horse-hockey - there's enough anecdotal evidence to indicate that your experience (and mine) is SOP, and I've yet to hear of an ISDN upgrade that didn't involve a loss of CPS.

Ms. **** *****, supervisor in Eircoms Galway call centre, told me that if I had ordered ISDN by phone that I would be informed of this

I ordered ISDN by phone. I wasn't informed.

spongebob

Originally posted by govinda
Just after my last post, I received the following email from the Eircom escalation department

Dear *********
_
The normal process in a situation like this, is that the Cps code (which signifies the customer's calls are with another carrier) is automatically re-applied to the customer's account once the order is completed. Due to an oversight on eircom's part, this was not done in your case. I apologise about this. I have now highlighted this case to the department who issued this order and I am doing everything in my power to ensure that this does not happen again.

Well done Govinda.

This thread is a textbook example of how to pin Comreg and Eircom down in the one operation and get your rights asserted as a consumer. Had you not proceeded in parallel with both and had you not posted the sanitised versions of the correspondance then I fear that you would be another victim of the inept 'nothing we can do we have no power' culture in Comreg and the fraudsters in Eircom.

As the quote above came from a senior Eircom person I would name that person in here and to Comreg , quoting the above.

Essentially, if a senior Eircom manager has put it on the record that their 'standard procedure' is ( or should be) to reapply all existing CPS instructions immediately upon completion of an access path change then I suspect that quite a few readers of this Board would like the name so that they can claim the refunds that were denied to them by Biddy ......... in direct contravention of that standard practice.

Alternatively you could name the manager to Comreg, ask Comreg to confirm the authenticity of the 'standard procedure' to you by email ....and name the person in Comreg who has taken ownership of the issue instead of the Eircom person.

Many people have been sent from pillar to post by Eircom/Comreg when seeking restitution for this form of breach of contract . Its time we had a single point of contact in either organisation to deal with these in future otherwise the farrago will continue.

One name is all we need

M

govinda

Muck, I have cc'd both the ComReg representative Paul Brennan and Bobby Hannan on all my correspondence with this Eircom representative but they are no longer responding to my emails. As with Dermot Ahern and the Department of Communications, it seems that SOP for ComReg is to ignore problems and hope they go away.

I visited their website yesterday and saw this:

ComReg04/76 - Information Notice - ComReg finds eircom in breach of the Carrier Pre-Selection Code of Practice

I thought great! Finally they're cracking down on them, but no - it was more winback regulation. I suppose that makes a change from them proofreading advertistments......but as regards slamming, they just don't seem to care. Words from Bobby Hannan (such as those in his email above) are fine words, but I've also found fine words from Etain Doyle made during her time in the then ODTR promising that slamming would be brought to an end:

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/09/25/story432262924.asp

It is time for action on the part of ComReg. If neither Eircom nor ComReg are going to warn the consumer, then I think I'll write to Joe Duffy and see if this message can be spread by other means. Its fine and all for me to post on boards.ie and ripoffireland.org but there are still consumers out there who could potentially find themselves in the same situation as I did and who wouldn't browse these forums. Like I said above, prior to this I would have considered myself wise to the Eircom agenda.....you live and learn, eh?!!!!!!!

Thanks again to everyone who offered help and advice, its much appreciated.

For those who wish to make a complaint, I've been dealing with Thomas Ryan, Escalation Manager - tmryan@eircom.ie

spongebob

The thread itself is explanation enough of your position and of how Eircom slammed you.

Another pernicious form of slamming is when the Eircom Winback mob go around to peoples houses, get told to bugger off , and Forge signatures on Winback forms which are then submitted to Eircom for processing unchecked .

A victim may have a 2c a minute rate to the UK or similar with another carrier so they carry on oblivious that Eircom have stolen back the traffic through forgery. Shock horror later , Eircom bill arrives and they are stung for 20c a minute instead while Eircom say that the victim signed themselves over to them and refuse to refund the money they stole.

Both slamming practises together would be a jolly good 45 mins of Radio .

Make sure you tell Joe to carry on regardless with the program if Eircom dont show up on the day despite promising to do so (they hate dealing with the public live on air ) . Joe would get a whole week outta porn diallers but thats another story entirely

M

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Rampant horse-hockey - there's enough anecdotal evidence to indicate that your experience (and mine) is SOP, and I've yet to hear of an ISDN upgrade that didn't involve a loss of CPS. I ordered ISDN by phone. I wasn't informed.

Mine didn't actually. Did my upgrade online. I didn't loose my cps to UTV at all.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Bond-007
Mine didn't actually. Did my upgrade online. I didn't loose my cps to UTV at all.

Interesting - when was your upgrade?

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Interesting - when was your upgrade?

31st March I got ISDN installed- Ordered it on the 29th

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Bond-007
31st March I got ISDN installed- Ordered it on the 29th

Right - after the fuss that was raised on this board about the practice.

Not that I'd dream of suggesting for a moment that that's anything other than a coinkydink...

spongebob

If Bobby Hannon is still ignoring you then escalate to HIS boss, Mike Byrne. Mike would also have some questions to answer on his attitude to 'pricing' and Porn Diallers. Mike is also personally responsible for the infamous 0k " Functional Internet Access " fiasco. The 1st anniversary of that latter farce is on the 25th of July, I shall organise a celebration .....anon.

Market Operations - Director: Mike Byrne
Market Operations handles day-to-day issues concerning
the regulation of the market including such issues as
interconnection, dispute resolution and unbundling the
local loop. Supervision of pricing and ensuring a universal
service for all consumers in respect of eircom is a
principal activity of Market Operations. This Division also
administers the Consumer Affairs section.

mike.byrne@comreg.ie should get to him

M

_Kaiser_

Hi all,

OK..... I'm a UTV Clicksilver customer and as such all my calls are supposed to be routed through and charged by them....

But..back in March I contacted UTV because I was being billed by eircom for several months and upon investigation they discovered that eircom had at some point reappropriated my calls (back somewhere before Christmas).
However, they promised to look into it and have this corrected ASAP and all was well again

(I should add at this point that I pay my UTV bills directly from my credit card and the eircom bill comes outta my bank account through billpay.ie).

Today (while reading this thread actually ) I remembered that I wanted to check with UTV that all was still ok and I discovered that this month's bill is for approx €175 and includes calls back to October!!

So I ring UTV who, while she was very nice, tells me that there's nothing she can do as the payment requests have already been issued and that as far as she can tell it's not something they've done - apparently these calls got "lost" and it's an Esat issue. They also - in fairness to them - offered a payment plan but that doesn't really solve the underlying cause of the problem.

Rang Esat so, and he tells me that nope, it's a UTV issue and that I as a customer shouldn't really be dealing with it at all - it's UTV that need to follow up on it.

I then rang eircom and spoke to customer service and he has a record alright of the "slamming" in March but doesn't think it's something he can resolve - he suggested I contact UTV again.

At the end of all this then I'm stuck with a rather sizeable bill that will be charged to my credit card in the next day or so as a result - as I see it - of some sort of f*ck up between UTV, Esat and eircom and they're all blaming each other!

So before I ring UTV back, has anyone any suggestions on what to say and what I can demand (if anything) to ensure that this doesn't happen again and anything else that might be useful here.

Any advice appreciated folks!

spongebob

.....not till you tell us how ESAT came into the equation

M

_Kaiser_

UTV (and ESAT) say that they get their bandwidth from ESAT (who buy it from eircom) and so ESAT charge them for the calls.

spongebob

UTV are entitled to bill you for calls you made. If you already paid Eircom for them you should not have to pay for them again though.

How did you find out you were slammed in March ?

M

_Kaiser_

cause my bills were coming in from eircom with call charges on them and the online statement from UTV was showing nothing at all except for the monthly sub charge. When I rang UTV they said that for some reason the CPS to route the calls to them had been changed back to eircom. (reason I didnt really twig this before then was that the line is mainly used for internet access so rarely use it for voice calls).



Anyway..off home now so will check back when I get in.. cheers!

parsi

I got a call yesterday from a friend who I had setup on UTVip and they suddenly got a bill from eircom for 2months of calls and the same 2 months were blank from UTV.

I have advised her to ring UTV and eircom and see what happened and then proceed to complain to Comreg.