UKIP...has the UK officially lost the plot?

DublinWriter

I've always had this theory that the UK would come 'fully' into Europe if we agreed to have pictures of Spitfires and Winston Churchill on the Euro notes.

Have the Brits really lost the plot with UKIP?

I think it's easy to take for granted what you already have - If the Brits got out of Europe I think they'd get a rude awakeing. The French would slap huge tariffs on the exports from what remains of their manufacturing industry and the Spanish would start looking for Visas for entry.

Should there be an associate-membership, or 'slow-lane' EU-Membership status in which countries like the UK and Denmark should just participate in? Or should we push forward for the full fendral EU deal?

mike65

The success of UKIP is a direct result of succesive governments being timid in the face of media, well press
hostility towards the EU. They have never faced them down and persuaded the public of the value of membership.

Many parts of Britain receive large amounts of grant aid from EU programmes but you'd would never know it. The average Brit has never taken its nations
membership seriously either thinking that leaving would be easy and pain free ("after all Uncle Sams on our side" etc) the USAs' relationship with the UK is based in large part on being in the EU.

UKIP offer nothing good as far as I can see.

Mike.

secret_squirrel

You could just as easily say the above, Im sure there are people in the UK and the North - thinking exactly that. Infact there are a number of parallels between the 2. Whenever, relatively off center parties win big its generally an indication that the main political parties have failed the electorate in some way.

In the case of the UK its some voters with a genuine fear of a more intrusive europe, some who think Britain still has an empire and a huge load of ignorance around the EU. Unlike ireland where you cant go more than 2-3 miles without seeing a 'partially funded by the EU' billboard, the EU involvement in the UK is nearly aways seen in a negative light. Examples include the destruction of the UK fishing industry and the latest petty rule from Brussels.

The UKIP win was also due to the conservatives trying to play down their own divisions on europe and therefore not cultivating the euro sceptic vote.

If the EU had any sense they would take this as a warning. The EU needs to become more inclusive and actually give voters a sense of involvement in their decisions. Hopefully (somewhat ironically too given that TB may lose a referendum on it) the new EU constitution may help by actually increasing the power of the European parliament. Some of the recent decisions by the Commission and the council of ministers (overuling the parliament) have been diabolical. Software Patents and sending Airline PAX data to the states spring to mind.

It also would help the EU if they did something to combat both the corruption and the beaurocracy.

The fact is that the EU needs huge amounts of positive PR to combat the negative press it gets in the UK, getting their own house in order would help. Chirac and Schroders comments didnt help much.....

UKIP may help force the EU to get its house in order, although Im not holding my breath.

Sand

Bashing the EU is an easy vote getter all across Europe - Richer countries see it as a drain on their resources, poorer as bossing them about and all of them view it as undermining their national sovereignty - replacing it with undemocratic bodies in Brussels.

If the UKIP reflects what the British want then the UK will eventually withdraw and probably go into a rather large depression shortly afterwards as trade and investment falls off, which will possibly lead to a rapid re-entry into the EU with a lot less influence. The bad news is that Britian is our major trade partner, even after their share of our trade decreasing so foolishness on their part will impact us massively as well.

The problem with Europe is that its organised and devised by states who dont want to give up their powers to a democratic european parliment. France in particular views the EU, not as a union of Europe, but as some sort of French bloc. The whole thing is not helped by the rules being bent /flouted by the larger countries - such as the Euro budget rules.

Hobbes

I forget the exact figure but it is something like 138 Billion (Sterling) that the UK has gotten from the EU.

It would be suicide for them to leave. They seem to think that everything would be peachy if they did.

Ironically the constitution has a provision that allows for the UK to leave, but my guess is UKIP will vote against it is as they are so anti-EU.

chewy

is it just the english notion of soverignty, nothing to do with money something to do with having ruled half the world nad now not wanting to be feel like breing ruled themselves


kilroy used to be in the labour party right? how ca one go from the labour party before new labor to the ukip?

mike65

Kilroy is a bit of a dilettante, if his BBC morning show had'nt been canned he proberly would'nt be part of UKIP and would still be condecending towards sink estate trash!

Mike.

Hobbes

Originally posted by mike65
Kilroy is a bit of a dilettante, if his BBC morning show had'nt been canned he proberly would'nt be part of UKIP and would still be condecending towards sink estate trash!

Mike.

The show was canned because he was fired for posting racist crap about Arabs.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Hobbes
The show was canned because he was fired for posting racist crap about Arabs.

'Posting'? Surely you mean 'saying'? You spend way too much time on-line, Hobbes.

therecklessone

Originally posted by The Corinthian
'Posting'? Surely you mean 'saying'? You spend way too much time on-line, Hobbes.

A little from column A, a little from column B...

Didn't the offending comments appear in his newspaper column?

seamus

Originally posted by therecklessone
A little from column A, a little from column B...

Didn't the offending comments appear in his newspaper column?

Yep. He also stuck by the comments even after losing his TV job, and overnight turned into a raving politican.

flogen

I thought he said they were wrong, and then when he came out in UKIP turned around and said he meant every word of them... and UKIP try and say people are being petty by calling them racist...:rolleyes:

Flogen

dark_knight_ire

Im just surprised we have not had a party rise up like the UKIP, i feel we are losing a bit more of our right to self government. I would be for a common defence policy as in you attack one country you attack us all but we must draw the line i would not like to be part of a united states of europe 50 years down the road

Hobbes

Originally posted by The Corinthian
'Posting'? Surely you mean 'saying'? You spend way too much time on-line, Hobbes.

Whoops. Although I meant his column in the newspaper.

Can read it here.

http://www.emjournal.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aj0021.html

TommyK

Originally posted by mike65
Many parts of Britain receive large amounts of grant aid from EU programmes but you'd would never know it. The average Brit has never taken its nations
membership seriously either thinking that leaving would be easy and pain free ("after all Uncle Sams on our side" etc) the USAs' relationship with the UK is based in large part on being in the EU.

Afaik, the U.K. contributes something like £3 billion **more** to the E.U. than it gets back. It's also one of the largest economies in the World - I think they'd do just fine outside the E.U.

And their relationship with the U.S. has more to do with cultural and historical commonalities than the E.U.

I think 'tis we who should worry more about the withdrawal of the UK from the EU than the Brits themselves (what with them being a primary trading partner an' all!)

And the EU should worry too - its *they* who would be crippled without the UK. They'd have to find another cash-cow to bleed.

Tommy.

P.S. - On a slightly related note, I can't wait to see all forthcoming stuff along the lines of "Vote YES to the EU "Constitution" or we'll get kicked out! And think of all the money Brussels have given you, you ungrateful bastards! It's time to pay the consequences of that now! Give up our independence - we're too stupid and drunk to have any anyway!"

Hobbes

Originally posted by TommyK
Afaik, the U.K. contributes something like £3 billion **more** to the E.U. than it gets back. It's also one of the largest economies in the World - I think they'd do just fine outside the E.U.

Do you have a linkage on that? My comment was in relation to news story in the UK shown on TV.

And their relationship with the U.S. has more to do with cultural and historical commonalities than the E.U.

The UK is seen as independant state of the US. It doesn't do anything without the US say so.

I think 'tis we who should worry more about the withdrawal of the UK from the EU than the Brits themselves (what with them being a primary trading partner an' all!)

And the EU should worry too - its *they* who would be crippled without the UK. They'd have to find another cash-cow to bleed.

That is very doubtful. First up if the UK were to leave they wouldn't want to do it at any negative effects. Sure we and other import to UK but then they also export goods as well. The open barriers helps their businesses a lot (although they are getting screwed on the exchange of Sterling vs Euro).

Second, if the UK was to exit it would mean that they could no longer dictate any rules in the EU which at a later time would no longer be favorable to them.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by TommyK
Afaik, the U.K. contributes something like £3 billion **more** to the E.U. than it gets back. It's also one of the largest economies in the World - I think they'd do just fine outside the E.U.

Of course, all that tariff-free trade that they do with the rest of the EU is worth nothing to the British economy - makes you wonder why they joined in the first place...

Duffman

The success of the UKIP is a direct result of ignorance.

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Hobbes
Do you have a linkage on that? My comment was in relation to news story in the UK shown on TV.

In 2002 the uk's NET contribution to the EU was approx £2.2bn or €3.3bn see here

Duffman is striking to the heart of the matter - its mostly ignorance and bad pr, that causes a significant minority of british people to be anti-eu.

It was also interesting to see sky interviewing a number of people over the weekend who when asked they claimed that they would be voting NO in any constitution referendum. When asked if they knew what the constitution was and meant for them the answers were all variations of 'haven't a clue'.

Which to be fair would be similar to the answer they would get here I reckon.

woody

Originally posted by Hobbes
Whoops. Although I meant his column in the newspaper.

Can read it here.

http://www.emjournal.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aj0021.html

Hobbes, What exactly wrong did Kilroy say in his article, he spoke the truth...Why Critise a man who has used facts and they are all facts.

Kilroy and his party have the right idea, the EU itself is a sponsor of terrorism and helps bank role the PA, which the money goes then to the Militants then to Yassers nice swiss bank account so his wife can shop in Paris.

England can and will survive on it's own and have plenty more trading partners to that of the EU the entire US market is bigger than the EU and China again and Australiasia and Parts of Africa.

I would admire them as a nation if they did pull out and give two fingers to the likes of that moron chirac or the even more moronic spainish PM.

Hobbes

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
In 2002 the uk's NET contribution to the EU was approx £2.2bn or €3.3bn see here

Except that the UK has gotten around 138 Billion from the EU.

Hobbes, What exactly wrong did Kilroy say in his article, he spoke the truth...Why Critise a man who has used facts and they are all facts.

Because it is racist and lacks what we call "All the facts". It is like saying all Irish people are terrorists who drink all day and wife beat.

bizmark

Originally posted by woody

England can and will survive on it's own and have plenty more trading partners to that of the EU the entire US market is bigger than the EU and China again and Australiasia and Parts of Africa.

.

Eu's population = 480 million China = 1,2 billion Usa = 280 million how is there market bigger than those 2?

Englands exports go to......US 15.5%, Germany 11.2%, France 9.4%, Ireland 8%, Netherlands 7.1%, Belgium 5.2%, Italy 4.4%, Spain 4.3% (2002) btw so the eu is very important to Engalnd nearly 50% of their exports and 40% of their imports come from or go to the Eu

woody

There is not a shred of racism there it is pure fact and true and your interpretation of rascism is very naeve if you think he is wrong.

He is also talking about the regimes and not the induviudals but we as Westerners love the Arabs who kill and try to decimate our way of life and don't start with us invading them etc.... Nobody asked 19 Saudi's to crash planes into the twin towers, blow up Bali, bomb Madrid or send Anthrax to inncoent people.

They are in most not all regimes of barbarism and uncivilisation.

As for the EU and the money aspect again the UK can and will stand alone the EU is a Joke and I personally wish we withdraw aswell.

woody

Originally posted by bizmark
Eu's population = 480 million China = 1,2 billion Usa = 280 million how is there market bigger than those 2?

Englands exports go to......US 15.5%, Germany 11.2%, France 9.4%, Ireland 8%, Netherlands 7.1%, Belgium 5.2%, Italy 4.4%, Spain 4.3% (2002) btw so the eu is very important to Engalnd nearly 50% of their exports and 40% of their imports come from or go to the Eu

Sorry I meant the other markets are bigger than the EU opps!

davej

He is also talking about the regimes and not the induviudals but we as Westerners love the Arabs who kill and try to decimate our way of life and don't start with us invading them etc.... Nobody asked 19 Saudi's to crash planes into the twin towers, blow up Bali, bomb Madrid or send Anthrax to inncoent people.

Do you think there is a reason these events occured or is it just that the people who did it were "evil" ?

RE: The EU being a joke

What do you think the geo-politics of the world will be like in say 50 years time?
Will China have surpassed the US as the biggest economy in the world?

Can individual countries "go it alone" in such a situation?

davej

woody

They did before and will again.

We had 2 superpowers up to 1990 it will happen again and there will be a transatlantic devide.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by woody
Hobbes, What exactly wrong did Kilroy say in his article, he spoke the truth...Why Critise a man who has used facts and they are all facts.

He aggregates all Arabs and paints them with the same brush. When he talks about “the way they murdered more than 3,000 civilians on September 11”, he’s not talking about a small number of fanatics, or even a larger section of the population - he is unambiguously talking about all Arabs.

And we know what making generalisations based upon race is called, don’t we?

And generalisation is not a fact. It’s a simplistic aggregation based upon opinion, which is ultimately what the article is based upon. It demonises all Arabs based upon the premise that they are all the same; for which there are no facts given to support this claim.

Kilroy and his party have the right idea, the EU itself is a sponsor of terrorism and helps bank role the PA, which the money goes then to the Militants then to Yassers nice swiss bank account so his wife can shop in Paris.

Nice sweeping statement, come back when you’ve got some of those famous facts of yours to back it up.

England can and will survive on it's own and have plenty more trading partners to that of the EU the entire US market is bigger than the EU and China again and Australiasia and Parts of Africa.

Actually no. The US and the EU cannot be compared as markets, to begin with. The EU is a free trade area while trade with the US is subject to tariffs and quotas (albeit slightly better ones than the rest of the World might get).

With regard to the Commonwealth, it’s economy has changed greatly in the last thirty or more years - that’s one of the reasons the UK joined the then EEC in the first place. Originally based upon the basis of the other Commonwealth nations producing the raw materials that Britain would then turn into finished products, it became evident that those nations were developing their own industrial infrastructure. After all, if the Commonwealth was such an excellent market, why did the UK look to setting up EFTA as an alternative to it prior to joining the EEC?

I would admire them as a nation if they did pull out and give two fingers to the likes of that moron chirac or the even more moronic spainish PM.

That makes as much sense as someone saying the same of giving the two fingers to Bush.

woody

http://www.accountancyage.com/News/1132455

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/ehrenfeld200312100915.asp


http://www.benadorassociates.com/pf.php?id=758


http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/Jun-02/130602.html


http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=147&a=13

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/02/1677371.php


Now tell me that the EU is not a sponsor of Terrorism.


They have even harboured terrorists from the Church of the Natvity Incident in Bethlehem.

Again I stand by my post's.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by woody
Now tell me that the EU is not a sponsor of Terrorism.

And you tell me the US isn't for that matter:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB55/index1.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,583254,00.html

http://www.crescentlife.com/heal%20the%20world/antiterrorism_as_a_cover_for_terrorism.htm

And most notably the judgement by the International Court of Justice against the US in 1984:

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inus_ijudgment/inus_ijudgment_19841126.pdf

Or do you define them all as freedom fighters? :rolleyes:

Scratch the surface hard enough and you'll find every nation sponsors terrorism.

Again I stand by my post's.

I'm sure you do, now why don't you answer all the other point I made?

thejollyrodger

DublinWriter:- Should there be an associate-membership, or 'slow-lane' EU-Membership status in which countries like the UK and Denmark should just participate in? Or should we push forward for the full fendral EU deal?

There is, Norway is very rich and doesnt need to be in the E.U but has EFTA membership. So does Iceland, but thats probably because its an island so far north. The Swiss also have EFTA membership. Maybe the Brits should start thinking about that.

Sand:- France in particular views the EU, not as a union of Europe, but as some sort of French bloc.

Exactly I couldn’t agree more. I was delighted to see the enlargement as I knew that the Franco-German axis would be smashed once and for all. Maybe now the E.U can stop focussing on French bureaucracy and an E.U for those two countries and focus on economic issues etc.

chewy:- is it just the english notion of soverignty, nothing to do with money something to do with having ruled half the world nad now not wanting to be feel like breing ruled themselves

I still think the Brits have notions of grandeur and haven’t realised that the empire is gone for good and are not fully up to speed with globalisation. Ireland has to take into account the U.K’s questionable relation with the rest of E.U and keep diversifying its trade so that the U.K isn’t our biggest trading partner. It looks like China is on the rise and Irish politicians and business people would do well to maximise our relations and trade with them.

mike65

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
It looks like China is on the rise and Irish politicians and business people would do well to maximise our relations and trade with them.

Heard on Morning Ireland (RTE radio) that Irish pubs in Shanghai are charging 6 euro a pint, they pay NO excise duty and the local wages are very small so the greening of the Chinese economiy is already underway with Irish rip-off merchants! One pub owner admitted they we're
coining it big-time.

Mike.

arcadegame2004

There is, Norway is very rich and doesnt need to be in the E.U but has EFTA membership. So does Iceland, but thats probably because its an island so far north. The Swiss also have EFTA membership. Maybe the Brits should start thinking about that.

Norway is the 3 largest exporter of oil in the world though, behind Saudi Arabia and Russia. No wonder it is rich.

As I understand it Norway is a member of the EEA (European Economic Area) (i.e. the EU Single Market) but not the EU. However, this is not all its cracked up to be. Norway has been forced as part of the terms of its membership to implement thousands of EU laws drawn up by EU states in spite of Norway having no say over them. Also, the quality-control standards on imports into the EU affect Norway, in that its exports to the EU must meet those regulations, and yet Norway again has no say over what those controls are.

So this route would be like being in the EU but having no say whatsoever on EU laws. Surely in the end that would just annoy UK public-opinion more than the exisitng system.

DublinWriter

Well, as I started this thread, I may as well finish it.

As both an Irish and European citizen, I do wish the UK would leave the EU as soon as possible.

I say this not because I am anti-British, far from it, I say this because British subjects need to experience exactly what life outside the EU would mean to them appreciate the benefits that they currently receive.

“But what benefits? We pay zillions every day, etc, etc”

Listen, do your own homework on that one.

I also don’t think their closed-cultural mindset is suitable for the new Europe. Ok, I’m generalising about an entire nation here, but largely it’s true.

secret_squirrel

So what about the 10 new member country's who only joined a month ago and who could be barely bothered to turn out for their euro elections? Surely if the electorates of 10 countries who were eager to join the EU cant be bothered, why should you be surprised that the electorate of a country that has been in the EU for years and have seen absolutely no benefit from it want to leave it.

Surely the EU is doing something wrong somewhere?

The sad fact of the matter is that the only time the british public hear anything about the EU is when some mad eurocrat come up with a rule for the bendyness of banana's or wants to call Cadbury's chocolate - vegelate. The EU and the UK Govt's are lousy at PR and lousy at tackling many of the real problems within the EU.

Its very easy to sit here and pontificate when every day we get not so subtle reminders of how much the EU has contributed towards Ireland. You have to remember Britain has nothing like that.

sceptre

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
when some mad eurocrat come up with a rule for the bendyness of banana's or wants to call Cadbury's chocolate - vegelate.

Came up with a classification for the bendiness of bananas. They didn't want them banned, just put in the same boxes as equally bendy bananas. And it was the Continentals who whinged about Cadbury's having too much milk and too little cocoa in it (and calling it "milk chocolate" was a reasonable compromise).

One of the UK MEPs (can't remember which one) has a big section of his website dedicated to dispelling the usual Sun-peddled myths. It should be mandatory reading for the Daily Mail and Telegraph journos as well.

Meh

Originally posted by sceptre
One of the UK MEPs (can't remember which one) has a big section of his website dedicated to dispelling the usual Sun-peddled myths. It should be mandatory reading for the Daily Mail and Telegraph journos as well.

The site is called Euromyths, it's run by the European Commission's press office in the UK.
Blair should send a printed copy of it to every household in the UK before the referendum.

monument

Originally posted by Meh
Euromyths,

'Yogurt' to be banned - The Daily Telegraph

New Euro laws will allow Brit workers to tell their bosses what colour carpets and brand of tea bags they want - Daily Star

Red-faced women will have to hand in their clapped-out sex toys under a new EU law - The Sun

:rolleyes:

earwicker

Thanks for the link. I don't read the tabloids, so I had no idea of the sort of ****e they print. Pure National Enquirer stuff. And to think I entertained the belief that they might try to be journalists. Hilarious stuff!

MadsL

their closed-cultural mindset is suitable for the new Europe

Hmm...shades of telephone calls for Mr Kettle here...

Take your point, but the irish are hardly wonderfully open to multi-culturalism either..