[Article] Muslim citizenship applicants told: 'You can only have one wife'

Victor

This smacks a little of "all citizens are equal, but some are more equal than others." I wonder is there anything in the constitution that says you can only have one wife and if the state has any right to interfere with the internal affairs of the family.

Separate to this case, some refugees are not being allowed bring second families (including children)with them. I wonder if this extends to all immigrants.

I wonder how they know who is a muslim. I wonder if these questions are asked of mormons.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/3409550?view=Eircomnet

Muslim citizenship applicants told: 'You can only have one wife'
From:The Irish Independent
Thursday, 17th June, 2004

MUSLIM men are being asked to swear that they will not take more than one wife if they are granted citizenship of this country.

The Irish Independent has learned that Muslim applicants for post-nuptial citizenship are being required to sign a sworn affidavit that they will not take a second wife in the future.

The Irish Council of Civil Liberties (ICCL) last night denounced the practice as "despicable".

A spokeswoman for the Department of Justice said it has been the practice to make inquiries "regarding the future marital intentions of some persons".

She said such inquiries were made in circumstances where "there was reason to believe that person's cultural or religious beliefs comprehended the possibility of more than one spouse at the same time".

ICCL director Aisling Reidy said imposing such a condition on certain people "on the basis of their religious background is blatant discrimination".

Ms Reidy said she believed the practice was also in breach of the equality principles in the constitution as the department was failing to treat all applicants equally before the law. She acknowledged that the Muslim faith allows men to take more than one wife and that this is not permitted by the laws of this country.

But she pointed out that the department was not asking applicants to swear affidavits that they would not steal, rape or kill anyone - acts which are also prohibited by the laws of the land.

The power to grant citizenship or refuse it is entirely at the discretion of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Non-nationals who are making an application for post-nuptial citizenship must have been married to their Irish spouse for at least three years and be able to show they are living as husband and wife.

The department spokeswoman pointed out that the courts have already decided the minister is entitled to look behind the required declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State. It was in that context that inquiries regarding future marital plans were made, she said.

The spokeswoman said that "the practice is currently under review in consultation with the Attorney General".

Grainne Cunningham

Xterminator

Hmm

Mormons are not allowed to take more thsn 1 wife. That just a misconception.
(Instead there are mormon 'fundamentalists' who do practice pologomy, which is why the misconception exists)

For the record it is agaist the law of our land, and applies to all citizens!

Perhaps you would like this law repealed, to suit the potential immigrants, who would like to have mulitple wives? Is that your position?

X

Boston

But she pointed out that the department was not asking applicants to swear affidavits that they would not steal, rape or kill anyone - acts which are also prohibited by the laws of the land.

Why exactly arn't they asked this?

Morpheus

Probably because they are subject to the laws of the land and asking someone not to marry a second time is slightly less offensive than asking someone to swear not to rape murder or steal.

Since when is it ok for Muslims to rape kill or steal? I thought it was a peace loving religion!?

Anyhow, i think that if you want to live here permanently, respect our laws and constitution as are, swear an oath of allegiance to the flag and your welcome with open arms, I think most Irish will agree, especially if you plan to live your days out in ireland, paying taxes, etc.

Frank Grimes

Muslim marriages aren't recognised as civil marriages here, so what I'm wondering is how they can ask people to swear an oath not to marry more than once, even when the first marriage won't be recognised anyway. (Obviously if they had a ceremony in a registry office as well as the religious ceremony that would be different).
Regardless, Muslim men are generally encouraged not to marry more than one wife and they're also asked to respect the laws of the land they live in, so I doubt there'll be too many cases of people demanding their "religious rights" to marry 4 women here.

pauldeehan

Well, if I went over to Saudi Arabia I wouldn't be allowed to drink any alcohol although my religion permits it. The same concept should apply here. It'd be a bit unfair if certain citizens were being permitted to do things which others could not.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by pauldeehan
Well, if I went over to Saudi Arabia I wouldn't be allowed to drink any alcohol although my religion permits it. The same concept should apply here. It'd be a bit unfair if certain citizens were being permitted to do things which others could not.

No one is saying that Muslims should be allowed marry more than once.
And other thing, Saudi isn't exactly representative of Islam so it's not exactly a fair comparison.

seamus

Sounds reasonable to me. Although an affidavit may be a bit over the top. Maybe just a questionnaire with "Do you intend to take a second wife" or something.

Law of the land > all other laws.

Why should they be allowed take a second wife?

I find it strange though that they're not recognised, as Frank Grimes says. Is this some kind of Catholic backwardism throwback?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by seamus
Although an affidavit may be a bit over the top.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, I'm sure a declaration that "I understand and will obey the laws of the land" or something similar would suffice. I don't see why they have swear to obey that particular law.

Morpheus

TAX.

Marriage laws and the tax system therein would be fcuked.

muffen

Originally posted by Xterminator
Perhaps you would like this law repealed, to suit the potential immigrants, who would like to have mulitple wives? Is that your position?

Did you not read the article?

You aren't even close to the point... I'm not going to respond to you, instead, I will just tell you this: go back and read the article, then read his original post, then figure out what it is he is complaining about.

Boston

Originally posted by muffen
Did you not read the article?

You aren't even close to the point... I'm not going to respond to you, instead, I will just tell you this: go back and read the article, then read his original post, then figure out what it is he is complaining about.

I read it as well, and I've still no idea what victor is on about, even if he's complaining or not, mainly because victor didn't give an opinion

Sand

I dont see the problem. Irish laws only allow for a man, or woman for that matter, to marry one other person at a time. Muslim culture allows a man to take on as many wives as he can support, or put up with.

Theres a certain potential clash there - so they get it cleared up in advance of granting the citizenship. Seems fair and practical. Many cultures tolerate and practise customs which are illegal under Irish law. Irish law may in the future change, but for now it remains the law and in a clash between the law and an immigrants culture there is no contest. Forget moral relativism.

On another note - why do civil rights bodies leap feet first into these open and shut cases going completely OTT about their significance? Are they honestly trying to devalue the weight of their opinions in the publics mind?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Sand
Muslim culture allows a man to take on as many wives as he can support, or put up with.

It's 4 at most actually, and it only really encourages one.
Regardless, it's odd to say the least that they're expected to swear not to marry more.
Like in the article, are people also made swear that they won't steal, rape, murder etc etc if they're made a citizen? I doubt it.
Would a generic "obey all laws" thing like I said earlier not be better?

Sand

Why arent they made to swear they will not rape, steal or kill? Should have been obvious enough I would have thought - Islamic culture takes as much a dim view of these activities as the Irish do so theres no potential clash between the culture and Irish laws.

Id imagine thats why this marraige business is being singled out for particular attention as well. When taking on citizenship I think the obey all laws is there anyway, theyre just making sure that their asses are covered if they find themselves charging a Irish muslim for bigamy, and then find themselves attacked for not respecting the muslim culture. They can then whip this out and say, yeah but he knew beforehand our position and swore he wouldnt do this.

Silent Bob

I think Victor's complaint is not that they ask this question but that they selectively target people to ask based on whatever criteria pop into their head.

article6

Originally posted by Silent Bob
I think Victor's complaint is not that they ask this question but that they selectively target people to ask based on whatever criteria pop into their head.

You could hardly describe a law of the land as a criteria which can "pop into their head", especially as there's a cultural-legal conflict.

If entrants to the country know the laws and agree to keep them, is that not enough? We don't really need targeted education for immigrants. Changing the law (which I think is what Victor is proposing) is another matter, one for the Oireachtas in legislation or for the people in a referendum.

I wonder how they know who is a muslim.

I presume they just go by "You're from this country, therefore you're this religion"... :dunno:

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by article6
I presume they just go by "You're from this country, therefore you're this religion"... :dunno:

There's Muslims in pretty much every country, they'd have to ask on entry specifically what religion you are.

Borzoi

It seems like a situation whereby the Irish authorities are using the affadavit to inform the person that multiple wives are against the law of this state (bigamy), unlike their possible home nation laws. Obviously rape murder etc are illegal in all countries so there is no real need for this to be pointed out.

Somewhat akin to a software license that you have to complete that says you wont copy th esoftware - it's not accusing you of being a pirate (har har me mateys) just that piracy is not allowed.

Cultural difference explained. No big deal. Lets all go about our business. Nothing to see, move alont etc.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Borzoi
Cultural difference explained.

It's not exactly explaining it though is it? Making someone swear an oath is a little over the top IMO.
WRT the software licence analogy, when was the last time you needed to have a judge in your living room while you reinstalled Windows?

seamus

Originally posted by Borzoi
It seems like a situation whereby the Irish authorities are using the affadavit to inform the person that multiple wives are against the law of this state (bigamy), unlike their possible home nation laws. Obviously rape murder etc are illegal in all countries so there is no real need for this to be pointed out.

Somewhat akin to a software license that you have to complete that says you wont copy th esoftware - it's not accusing you of being a pirate (har har me mateys) just that piracy is not allowed.

Cultural difference explained. No big deal. Lets all go about our business. Nothing to see, move alont etc.

Possibly, but there are plenty of other laws that will differ - age of consent, wife beating, covering of faces. Loads of things in fact, but we don't ask them to swear an affidavit that they won't take a 14 year old wife, we'll just lock them up if they do. Exactly the same as if an Irish woman went to a strict Muslim country uncovered.
An affidavit is over the top just to let someone know what isn't permitted. A "Did you know?" factsheet with some key differences would be just as effective.

Xterminator

Originally posted by muffen
Did you not read the article?

You aren't even close to the point... I'm not going to respond to you, instead, I will just tell you this: go back and read the article, then read his original post, then figure out what it is he is complaining about.

I read the article and post several times.
I still was in the dark as no opinion was given.
'S no big deal, but he might have been objecting to anything.

As for the enforcement of this particualr law, i wonder does the muslim faith recognise the law of the land as having precendce over muslim law, especially in regards to things like marriage, divorce, familiy law etc.

If the muslim faith claimed muslim law has precendence over the law of the land, then this would be a perfectly acceptable move, though perhaps it needs to be expanded where 'they' (or any potential immamgrant) agree to recognise all of the laws of the land.

X

Victor

Originally posted by Xterminator
As for the enforcement of this particualr law, i wonder does the muslim faith recognise the law of the land as having precendce over muslim law, especially in regards to things like marriage, divorce, familiy law etc.

While no expert on Islam, it does recognise that local laws need to be obeyed.

DublinWriter

I have quite a few Muslim friends, both here and in London, and they all shudder at the thought of having a second wife.

Christians, who believe the absolute word of the bible, don't really think sex with minors is a good thing, although the Song of Solomon in the Old Testament does go into great detail about how great taking a 13-year old bride is.

If I go to Saudi, I wouldn't walk down a street swigging from a bottle of Paddy and reading Playboy.

I think we all need to live and let live. Most people are basically pragmatists. The law of the land should always take precendence.