Religion in Schools

Cathy

I was reading Meat Product's thread on the similarities between Jesus, Horus, Mithra and so on, and a couple of people made interesting points on the teaching of religion in schools. I didn't want to post there as it's off topic, so I'm making a new thread.
In my opinion, the best thing to do would be to not teach religion in schools, but to leave religious education up to parents/guardians and their church or equivalent. There are people of so many different faiths in our school system today that it seems unfair to concentrate on Christianity over, say, Islam.
To be honest, I don't feel that a subject like religion is suitable for teaching in primary schools, as it isn't on a par with subjects like maths or English - it is not a subject based on facts, but on faith, and so is individual to each person, and should be left up to the family of the child, at least until the child is old enough to think and decide for him/herself about it, one way or another.
Does anyone agree/disagree?


Cathy

Boston

Isn't religion now a junior cert subject? If not it will be wihtin a year or so (I saw a sample paper) thats pretty messed up right there.

Cathy

Originally posted by Boston
Isn't religion now a junior cert subject? If not it will be wihtin a year or so (I saw a sample paper) thats pretty messed up right there.

It is, as far as I know. But that's slightly different than in primary schools because it's an optional subject (at least in most schools - I go (well, not any more, as of a couple of weeks ago) to a convent, so it's compulsory there, I think).
If I was given the option back in first year, I think I would have considered studying it, actually, because, although I'm in no way religious, I find theology very interesting, and the course is officially impartial. I haven't seen the papers though, so I can't really comment on that.

Boston

theology? I can't remember doing much impartial theology in school, and whole load of catholic dogma on the otherhand...

I'll be honest with you, i would love to have faith in something like a religion, but that really is one thing religious education took away from me.

Cathy

Originally posted by Boston
theology? I can't remember doing much impartial theology in school, and whole load of catholic dogma on the otherhand...

I'll be honest with you, i would love to have faith in something like a religion, but that really is one thing religious education took away from me.

Well, same here, but just before my confirmation, I began to question Catholicism, and spent a lot of time looking into it. I'm not religious, but I find the subject of religion very interesting - it's had such an impact on the world.
I remember a particularly interesting discussion with my 6th class teacher on whether or not Adam and Eve were apes...

neuro-praxis

I think a religious awareness subject mightn't be a bad plan for state schools. Taught by experts on the subject, and giving a wide range of info on all legit religions.

We shouldn't reach a point though, like it has in the states, where you aren't allowed to wish people a Merry Christmas or refer to the Christmas tree...it's Happy Holidays and the Holiday Tree. :rolleyes:

Having denominational schools is also a good idea, just for kids of that denomination.
I don't believe that Catholic schools, for example, should stop teaching religion. Why shouldn't they? And if you really don't want your kids to learn about any religion, send them to an independent or non-denominational school.

Cathy

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
I think a religious awareness subject mightn't be a bad plan for state schools. Taught by experts on the subject, and giving a wide range of info on all legit religions.

We shouldn't reach a point though, like it has in the states, where you aren't allowed to wish people a Merry Christmas or refer to the Christmas tree...it's Happy Holidays and the Holiday Tree. :rolleyes:

Having denominational schools is also a good idea, just for kids of that denomination.
I don't believe that Catholic schools, for example, should stop teaching religion. Why shouldn't they? And if you really don't want your kids to learn about any religion, send them to an independent or non-denominational school.

I agree - if one religion is taught, all of them should be (or at least the main ones, for practicality's sake). They should receive equal treatment, and an emphasis shouldn't be placed on one over the other.
I can kind of understand the over-politically correctness in a way, but I agree that it's over the top. I mean, would you be insulted if someone wished you a happy Hanukkah?
I'm not so sure about denominational schools. I went to one, and I know I'd prefer to have gone to an ordinary one. I know you'll say that I should have if I'm not religious, but my parents are religious and it's the main school in the town - I didn't have much choice in the matter. Saying that, I survived it, so it wasn't that bad, I suppose.

neuro-praxis

I wouldn't mind at all if I was wished a happy Channukah at all.

I think that freedom of religious expression is fundamental.

And I believe that while you were under your parents' care, they had every right to send you to a denominational school. After all, what they were trying to do was pass onto you something that it culturally important to them. You should be glad you had the experience of it, even if it wasn't something you embraced.

neuro-praxis

PS - Something that I forgot to mention here is how important it is that faith is expressed in life and at home. I don't believe that it should ever be the job of a school to nurture somebody in their faith.

When I have kids I am going to raise them as Christians as best I can by living my faith with them. If they choose to ignore it later on, so be it. If I didn't raise them in the way that I believe is right, I would be failing God, failing myself and failing them.

Cathy

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
And I believe that while you were under your parents' care, they had every right to send you to a denominational school.

I do understand what you mean, but I didn't enjoy the experience. I've been an atheist since the age of eleven, and I resented being made to go to Mass and confession and saying prayers in school - I felt that it was stepping over the line. Obviously it would be different for someone religious like you - but I would have preferred the choice of going somewhere else.
Of course parents are going to bring their child up with their religion, but I really think that after the age of around sixteen it should be up to the 'child' for want of a better word. But that's not going to change, so I suppose there's no point arguing about it.

dudara

Religion has absolutely no place in schools. As it is a matter of faith, then it should be taught by parents and the surrounding religious community.

There is enought bigotry in the world, and even in schools, without adding religion to the mix

[Preacher]

Originally posted by dudara
Religion has absolutely no place in schools. As it is a matter of faith, then it should be taught by parents and the surrounding religious community.

There is enought bigotry in the world, and even in schools, without adding religion to the mix

Explain how it's bigorty to teach RE in a school?
The syllabus for RE in secondry schools covers most of the Legit religions.
christianity, judahism, ismal, hinidi, Shikism, budhism and so on.


And if a CATHOLIC school wish to put a slightly more catholic awear view point on thier teaching then that's thier choice, besides it's an optional subject, it's not forced on anyone.

Cathy

Originally posted by [Preacher]
Explain how it's bigorty to teach RE in a school?
The syllabus for RE in secondry schools covers most of the Legit religions.
christianity, judahism, ismal, hinidi, Shikism, budhism and so on.


And if a CATHOLIC school wish to put a slightly more catholic awear view point on thier teaching then that's thier choice, besides it's an optional subject, it's not forced on anyone.

It isn't optional in my school. Everybody has to take it; no exceptions.

rainbow kirby

Back in the day, when I was in 6th year, we had a 78 year old nun teaching religion. I got kicked out of the class for asking questions... That's not a good way to teach religion. I'm an atheist myself, have been since I was about 10. I don't believe that religion is something that should be forced on children, but is something that the person should be able to discover for themselves, either from being brought up in the faith (I'm not being specific here) or through their own study at a later stage. I believe there is no place for it as an exam subject.

Cathy

Well I could understand it being an exam subject if it was completely objective, but it's not. A class like Philosophy would be much more suitable, I think, and encourage more open debate.

Bucephalus

Originally posted by Cathy
In my opinion, the best thing to do would be to not teach religion in schools, but to leave religious education up to parents/guardians and their church or equivalent. There are people of so many different faiths in our school system today that it seems unfair to concentrate on Christianity over, say, Islam.

I used to hold the same views, but have since become confused. After all, the practice of not teaching religion in a (presumably state-funded) school could in turn be argued as discriminatory.

Bucephalus

Originally posted by Cathy
It isn't optional in my school. Everybody has to take it; no exceptions.

Are you sure about that? Religious education is optional as far as I know.

Cathy

Yes, I'm sure. Although it is a convent school.

dudara

with regard to my previous post, religion as a faith has no place in schools.

religion as an impartial, objective subject, which looks at many different religions without trying to justify one over the other, is a valid educational subject.

jill_valentine

By and large, Religion is a theoretically optional subject.

In practice however, that's not the case. We did it right up until Leaving Cert, regardless of how much of a waste of time it was.

Teaching religion in schools in its current form is indoctrination, and nothing better. Like most other posters here, I lost my faith around 12... and while it was bad enough to have to deal with hormones and the Athiest's Void at the same time, the last thing I needed was 2/3 classes a week telling me how lovely Catholicism was, and no you can't ask that question. It left me incredibly bitter at Christian religion, because I felt very aware that I was being forced through the motions, which is a little counterproductive, no? "It can't be "faith" if your school feels the need to brainwash you" was my prevailing notion.

But I've gotten over most of the bitterness. I would be much, much happier if philosophy or a wider religious study course was taught instead, because I really do find religion as a whole fascinating. And ultra PCness helps nobody either. There's no harm in Christmas or Easter or Paddy's Day decorations.

Georgiana

Schools of any ethos have the right to teach children within that ethos if parents choose to send them there.

The problem in Ireland is that there is a lack of choice becuse most schools are controlled by religious institutions. If parents do not want their child to receive religious instruction they may face great difficulty finding a suitable school as there are only a few multidenominational schools. The schools of a particular religious orinetation (the vast majority) will respect a parents wishes to have their child removed from the religion class, but this raises the problem of what the child does during that class. I think we need much more choice in our educational system on this issue.

Manach

Personally I do not find anything wrong at all in teaching children religion in schools.
It promotes a sense of personal morality and awareness of an alternative view of history. That is not to say that one religion should be dominant, but it is ridiculous & PC gone amok to suggest that all are the same or : Aztec sacrifices anyone .

The irony of the situation here, is that in the UK parents prefer to send their children to the Religious run schools rather than the State ones, because of the higher quality of the former.

rs

I don't think any single religion should be taught in schools.

I moved to Canada when I was 11, and they have a very sensible approch over there. Your average state run school cannot teach religion (or even read from the bible) as it's considered unfair to those kids who are not christians.

I'm no big believer in being overly PC, but forcing your religion on someone else with different beliefs in a public school is going a bit far.

There are christian and catholic schools in Canada that do teach religion and you are free to send your kids to one of these.

I do agree that learning about all religions in an unbiased way in school is probably a good thing.

If only people would stop believing in this religious non-sense and started believing in themselves we wouldn't have to deal with stuff like this.

Georgiana

Well I think that in the case of each child, the parents of that child should have an absolute right to access the type of education which they wish for their child and that might or might not include religious education. If it does, I think the parents have the right to decide what type of religious or moral education they want for the child.

I personally opt for a child being educated in the history of various religions without adopting the moral code or practices of any particular religion, this being dealt with as a separate aspect of the child's education, unconnected with specific religious belief. This approach is difficult to access in Ireland as the multidenominational schools are so few.

Excelsior

Originally posted by rs


If only people would stop believing in this religious non-sense and started believing in themselves we wouldn't have to deal with stuff like this.

Well, I'm a believing Christian. But I blame you for my nonsense because you don't believe in me (deeming me nonsensical and all) so why should I believe in myself?

My kids will be going to an Educate Together school but I have no difficulty in Catholic ethos driving Catholic schools seeing as they were bought by Catholics, built on Catholic land, setup by Catholics and still have many Catholics teaching and sending their kids there.

If the Government decides to set up a secular alternative I wouldn't care either way. I just realise that we'd be talking about billions in capital expenditure because the state can't just rob the schools from the RC Church.

As far as religion being pushed down my throat, most of my religion class consisted of me being shown Simpsons episodes and when we did get around to ethics or morality (but never ever Christianity) the teachings were stale enough to never trouble my atheism.

I had to go to college and meet dirty left footed black souled Protestants before God got a foot in the door. It had nothing to do with religion classes in school though.

rs

Originally posted by Excelsior
Well, I'm a believing Christian. But I blame you for my nonsense because you don't believe in me (deeming me nonsensical and all) so why should I believe in myself?

But I fully believe that you can someday overcome this religious affliction, and go on to live a happy guilt-free life

My kids will be going to an Educate Together school but I have no difficulty in Catholic ethos driving Catholic schools seeing as they were bought by Catholics, built on Catholic land, setup by Catholics and still have many Catholics teaching and sending their kids there.

I don't think that any public schools should be teaching religion. If religious people want to come in and use the school buildings to teach their religion to students that want to learn, then that's fine.

If the Government decides to set up a secular alternative I wouldn't care either way. I just realise that we'd be talking about billions in capital expenditure because the state can't just rob the schools from the RC Church.

The government can't rob them, but it can tax the living piss out of them, the same way it taxes the living piss out of me

I think it's time we handed the church a 42% tax bill.

As far as religion being pushed down my throat, most of my religion class consisted of me being shown Simpsons episodes and when we did get around to ethics or morality (but never ever Christianity) the teachings were stale enough to never trouble my atheism.

Ok, I would totally agree that the simpsons should be a required subject at school. Simpsons knowledge will take you a lot futher than silly things like maths and science

Georgiana

Those who want secular education have a right to its availability. This is not the case at present and I think this is because there is such a lax and ambiguous attitude by non practicing parents in relation to whether their kids recieve a catholic education. It makes no sense for non practicing parents to have their children prepared for holy communion and confirmation at school, but it happens in thousands and thousands of cases. It indicates a double standard.

Manach

So we have somehow to spend millions of Euro because some minority of parents dislike one subject taught at school. Well, then what about other subjects which one might have an objection to. Perhaps economics is slanted too much to a Free Market system, and there should be alternative classes for the socialist model or perhaps there should be an alternative versions of history classes, depending on which world view the Parents have. The list could one, and so could the expense, all to avoid any appearence of double standards.

sophie starr

LORDS MIRACLE PRAYER


Sacred heart of jesus in the past i have asked for many favours, this time i ask for a special one. (mention favour) . take it into your heart dear jesus where your father sees it , then it will become your favour not mine .
amen


say 3 times a day for3 days. publish
never known to fail.

Excelsior

I said that prayer hoping to understand why you would post it.

Now it is known to fail.

Georgiana

Sophie

Its not really a good idea to offer people prayers to say when they are in the middle of talking about something else. No offence intended.

Georgiana

Manach

I think you will find very few who object to religion being "taught as a subject"- that is when information about religion is offered .

The point which you missed is that the majority of schools use school time to promote an ethos and a set of religious PRACTICES. This is how the system is set up throught the Dept of Education, Schools are required to have a patron. The patron is entitled and encouraged to promote whatever ethos the patron wishes. In practice this means that schools are for the most part under the PATRONAGE of the Catholic Church. In other words the whole existence of the school is under a specific ethos and the patron is entitled to promote the PRACTICE of any ethos or religion.

This places religion in a totally different category to any taught subject.
Do you understand now???

Yoda

neuro-praxis wrote:

We shouldn't reach a point though, like it has in the states, where you aren't allowed to wish people a Merry Christmas or refer to the Christmas tree...it's Happy Holidays and the Holiday Tree. :rolleyes:

The Christmas Tree represents what we now call the Year God, consort of the Mother Goddess. He probably dates to the Ice Age. Specifically, the relation between fire and the tree is to wake him at the end of the year so that he will wake the Mother who will bring back life to the world. The Saxons used to cut down a big tree, drag it through town, and set it on fire (the Yule log); the Germans used to cut down a tree, bring it inside, and put candles on its branches (our Christmas tree); the Lithuanians used to go out into the forest and set a tree on fire.

But that notwithstanding, separtion of Church and State is a very good thing.