Commercial Law

kleefarr

Do any commercial lawyers visit this site?
I have a couple of questions if you wouldn't mind giving your opinion.


Kevin

Victor

There are a few law student and a few people who have done law as part of other courses. What questions do you want to ask - give as much (relevant) information as you can, but don't identify parties.

kleefarr

Ok. Putting it in the most straight forward way, without mentioning names.

I received a cheque for an order on the 27th May 04. Bank the cheque in our bank. It was a euro cheque, but from Germany. Was told it would take at least 5 days to clear. Customer was told that dispatch would be made when cheque had cleared.
Phone the bank on 2nd June on enquire if said cheque had cleared. Was told it had and I was told that it could be drawn against.
Processed the customers order. Shipped it to German. He received his order which had been confirmed by the shipping company.
Today I got a phone from our bank, saying that the cheque has now been return unpaid.

I pointed out to the bank that I had had phone confirmation of clearance and was very annoyed as the order had been sent. They asked if I could stop the delivery I said no it's already been received by the customer.

Bank said oh dear, it wasn't 5 days since it was lodged. Not much they can do.
Said they would phone me back this afternoon after speaking to a superior.
No phone call.

Where do I stand? This is a new business I've started, so we we're being very careful as far as payment is concerned.

Another couple of points that may be relevant...
I had to wait for the cheque to clear..

1. Its safer for us and in theory we don't get stitched up.
2. It need to clear before I could buy the stock for the order, as it was a larger order than normal. I made payment for the stock via online business banking and this was paid and confirmed by the bank on the 4th June. Definately 5 days since lodgement.

I'm still in a state of shock. How can this happen? Epescially after being so careful on our part.

Any advice gratefully received.


Kevin

Victor

Write all you memories of this down - NOW! Talk to the economic unit in the German Embassy to see if they can help tracking the recipient.

Germany
Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany
31 Trimleston Avenue
Booterstown
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Tel: 01 269 3011
Fax: 01 269 3946
E.Mail: germany@indigo.ie

Were you selling to a private individual or a business? What sort of money was involved?

Originally posted by kleefarr
It was a euro cheque, but from Germany.

When receiving money from outisde Ireland, you should always do so by bank electronic transfer - permanent record. A cheque drawn on a German Bank will tend to take more than 5 days to clear.

Originally posted by kleefarr
Was told it would take at least 5 days to clear.

By the bank? Do you have any record of this?

Originally posted by kleefarr
Customer was told that dispatch would be made when cheque had cleared.
Phone the bank on 2nd June on enquire if said cheque had cleared. Was told it had and I was told that it could be drawn against.

Do you know who you actually spoke to in the bank? Did the comment on a specific cheque (yes, the cheque for €XXXX has cleared) or 'in general'?

Originally posted by kleefarr
Shipped it to German. He received his order which had been confirmed by the shipping company.

What information do you have on the German customer? Name, address, phone number, website ....

Originally posted by kleefarr
Today I got a phone from our bank, saying that the cheque has now been return unpaid. Bank said oh dear, it wasn't 5 days since it was lodged. Not much they can do.

27th May 04 - 15th June 04 = 13 working days.

Originally posted by kleefarr
Said they would phone me back this afternoon after speaking to a superior.
No phone call.

Go speak to bank manager in the morning. 10.01am.

Originally posted by kleefarr
Where do I stand?

Talk to solicitor in the morning. While the bank have some duty of care to you, their terms and conditions, whcih you agreed to, may restrict this.

Originally posted by kleefarr
I'm still in a state of shock. How can this happen? Epescially after being so careful on our part.

Such is the nature of international trade with people you don't know - you mention the order was "larger than normal", which should have been a warning trigger.

kleefarr

Many thanks!!! Have replied to your individual questions below.



Were you selling to a private individual or a business? What sort of money was involved?
1. Private individual who was setting up an office allegedly.
2. €7600.

When receiving money from outisde Ireland, you should always do so by bank electronic transfer - permanent record. A cheque drawn on a German Bank will tend to take more than 5 days to clear.
Which was why I didn't send anything until the bank had confirmed clearance of the cheque.

By the bank? Do you have any record of this?
1. When the cheque was deposited the cashier was asked how long it would take and she said five working days.
2. Only a verbal confirmation from cashier.

Do you know who you actually spoke to in the bank? Did the comment on a specific cheque (yes, the cheque for €XXXX has cleared) or 'in general'?
1. No, unfortunately. Would there be any record of who checked my account on their computer system I wonder.
2.It was specific as I had told them the value and date of deposit.

What information do you have on the German customer? Name, address, phone number, website ....
Name, address and telephone number, if they are real. Infact I have two addresses as the delivery address was different, just down the street actually.

27th May 04 - 15th June 04 = 13 working days.
Sorry, that wasn't very clearly written. "Not five working days from deposit to confirmation by phone". As I said though, the payment for the stock was made two days after which was 6 days.

Go speak to bank manager in the morning. 10.01am.
Will do. After I contact the German Embassy at 9.00am

Talk to solicitor in the morning. While the bank have some duty of care to you, their terms and conditions, whcih you agreed to, may restrict this.
Ok.

Such is the nature of international trade with people you don't know - you mention the order was "larger than normal", which should have been a warning trigger.
Agreed, but as we have a policy of not parting with anything till full payment is received I thought we were safe having had confirmation.

Victor

Private individual who was setting up an office allegedly.

Name, address and telephone number, if they are real. Infact I have two addresses as the delivery address was different, just down the street actually.

Both are hints at something dubious.

No, unfortunately. Would there be any record of who checked my account on their computer system I wonder.

Did you phone them? Do you have a telephone record of date and time? There may or may not be an inquiry record on the bank's computer, but they are unlikley to volunteer information.

What city in Germany? And what telephone area code?

kleefarr

Both are hints at something dubious.

Yes. I am so peed off. We waited for confirmation because you can't be too careful. It was confirmed cleared. I can't ignore orders because they seem dubious. In fact, we thought it was, but like other cheques that we have received that seemed dodgy and we have had a couple that were knocked back by the bank, we were patient and waited for confirmation.
We now can't trust anything the bank tell us.

Did you phone them? Do you have a telephone record of date and time?

Yes I phoned. It should be on the phone bill. I am going to ring them tomorrow to get confirmation.

What city in Germany? And what telephone area code?

Aachen which is (241) Contact was Mobile number 49-1623-752-696

mayhem#

Mate,

Aachen is only down the road from where I am now.
You want me t look into it?

E.

kleefarr

Originally posted by mayhem#
Mate,

Aachen is only down the road from where I am now.
You want me t look into it?

E.

Sent you an e-mail.

Thanks

Kevin

Victor

Have you heard from the customer?

Have you thought about talking to the cops (Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation)? After all bouncing a cheque is now an offence here (not sure about Germany).

b20uvkft6m5xwg

I echo Victors post. When I first read your post the other day my first thought was that you should contact the fraud squad (or equiv) in Germany to file a report.

I know mayhem is perhaps looking into for you but perhaps let the police deal with the whole thing as you really dont know who you are dealing with.

mayhem#

Originally posted by kleefarr
Sent you an e-mail.

Thanks

Kevin

Didn't get anything, could you try again?

E.

kleefarr

The matter was passed on the the Regional Manager a couple of weeks ago. He phoned me after receiving the paperwork I sent him and said that he knew nothing of the matter. (surprise surprise). He assured me that they would be in contact shortly.
A week later I phoned to ask why I hadn't heard anything, they said they were waiting for a report from the branch.
Got a phone call from the branch manager Monday and we made an arrangement to meet today, with a view to settling the matter.

So, earlier this morning I met with the bank manager. To cut along story short he asked me what figure we could agree to settle on. I told him the full amount €7600 plus the additional cost that had been incurred since they took the money back, leaving our account in debt, i.e. returned cheque charges and overdraft charges. After a few seconds he agreed and said that he would have that sorted out next Wednesday. (I nearly fell off my chair!)
In a roundabout way he admitted that they were at fault. I got the feeling that they knew I wasn't going to let them get off lightly. He even said that they weren't going to wait for their legal department to get back to them, it would get sorted.
He was a nice bloke really. I told him that I was sorry he had been put in this position by a member of staff making the initial error.

Well we'll wait and see what happens next Wednesday.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Gluck, hope it all works out

Victor

Congrats. Stick to your guns. Make sure your solicitors fees etc. are also paid. Make sure you don't sign anything until you've been able to think it over and/or run it by your solicitor.

You might consider being nice to the bank staff in some manner (only after everything is settled).

kleefarr

Originally posted by 80project
Gluck, hope it all works out

Thanks. Roll on Wednesday!

Originally posted by VictorCongrats. Stick to your guns. Make sure your solicitors fees etc. are also paid. Make sure you don't sign anything until you've been able to think it over and/or run it by your solicitor.

Damn didn't think of mentioning solicitors fees, if there are any. Not a lot has been done by the solicitor, apart from a couple of emails.

Big tin of roses may be in order, just to show there's no hard feeling.

kleefarr

Well, needless to say, nothing happened Wednesday.
Since then, despite numerous phone calls to the branch manager, most of which were disconnected after ringing, nothing happened. So I took the next step and posted a strong letter of complaint and diary of events etc to the Cheif Executive at H.O. Dublin Friday.
I gave a copy to the Regional Manager and Branch manager as well.

I have just received a phone call from the branch manager, telling me that he has just been given the okay to credit our business account for the value of the cheque plus extras. Should be in the account tomorrow by close of business.

The Chief Executive must have given him a ring.

Will let you know if it does actually happen, I suspect it might.


Kevin

kleefarr

Money is in the account. They paid up!!

Big tin of roses will be dropped off Friday.