one life one body

chewy

the two philosophy courses ive done both seemed to say your body is simply a vehicle for your mind/spirit... when i rather see it as an amazing tool


i think when frist heard this i reacte4d strongly against this statement cos i thought those saying it were suggesting it wasn't worth developing and using your body...

i think most eastern philosophies say that your present (physical) form is just one point along an nearly infiniite path of your spirit... and also hold the idea of
reincarnation...

i find these concepts interesting and enjoyable and do help to give reason for life and reason to improve yourself... but i don't think i could say that i believe in reincaranation (if believe is the right word at all)


i was wondering if there were any concept theories or philsophies that would conclude the 90's or so years of your life is it, from begin to end and is it for your spirit too...


i ask here as how you even start to find out that on the net

Thomas from Presence

I'm of the opinion that this is more of a religious question rather than a philosophical one (in the western use of the word supported in this board). There are many examinations in wester philosophy of soul and body relationships.

Aristotle's De Anima and, by extension, the scholasticism of Thomas Aquinas give a the best introduction to popular western reasonable thinking on the subject. Aquinas is still the only philosopher the Church would ever ascribe truth to.

In both the dichotomy if body and soul is dealt with in a similar way. Put simply the human is a composite substance, the body and the soul are inseparable if there is to be a human. On death the rational intellect survives but is not subject to the same benefits it had when it was united with a sensible body (your soul as a disembodied rational intellect is not equivable to 'You' as in that which is identified with you (your personal identity). As per Catholic teaching, Aquinas taught that a reunification will ultimately occur given Gods will to do so.

BEAT

to further the topic of St. Thomas Aquinas look at these links:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/aquinas-eternity.html

http://www.home.duq.edu/~bonin/thomasbibliography.html#aeternitate

I tink you will find it interesting in relating to your topic

simu

I'm of the opinion that this is more of a religious question rather than a philosophical one (in the western use of the word supported in this board). There are many examinations in wester philosophy of soul and body relationships.

(posted by Thomas from Presence)

I think that it's more of a philosophical question and relevant to this board. If anything, chewy was looking for non-religious take on the whole soul/body question. Or at least that's how I would interpret his words below:

i was wondering if there were any concept theories or philsophies that would conclude the 90's or so years of your life is it, from begin to end and is it for your spirit too...

(posted by chewy)

While Aquinas' views were influential, you have to remember that he was a Catholic of the 13th century and that he would accept ideas of the Catholic Church as true solely because these ideas came from the Church.

Aristotle's De Anima and, by extension, the scholasticism of Thomas Aquinas give a the best introduction to popular western reasonable thinking on the subject.

(posted by Thomas from Presence)

I disagree. Whilst it's useful to know about Aquinas and Aristotle to understand how ideas on this subject developed in the West, you can't just ignore all the other philosophers and philosophical movements that came after them. That would be like learning about astronomy but stopping at Galileo!

Aquinas is still the only philosopher the Church would ever ascribe truth to.

OK, that's the church's view but are we going to accept something as true just because the Catholic Church maintains it is so? The Church does have opinions on this question, but the way you're presenting things, it makes it look as though that's the only valid source of answers. I'm wondering why you decide to post about Aquinas et al when it isn't relevant to the question being asked and why you insist that this is a religious question when it seems quite clear to me that it's not.

simu

Originally posted by chewy

i was wondering if there were any concept theories or philsophies that would conclude the 90's or so years of your life is it, from begin to end and is it for your spirit too...


i ask here as how you even start to find out that on the net

the two philosophy courses ive done both seemed to say your body is simply a vehicle for your mind/spirit... when i rather see it as an amazing tool

Well, first of all, what exactly do you mean by spirit? Are you using spirit and mind as interchangeable things? Explaining this would make it a it easier for people to try and answer your question.

If you're talking about the problem of the physical body versus the subjective "I" that each person experiences (the mind/body problem), you might be interested to read through these threads where the question came up before:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162778&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158864

Or maybe you're wondering whether all philosophers think that there is something like a soul that exists before conception and/or survives after death - well, few modern, Western philosophers hold such views - I could go looking for some links but I don't even know if that's the question you wanted to have answered!

What kind of philosophy courses did you do btw? I find it surprising that the various materialistic views on both these questions would not be mentioned by your lecturers.

chewy

well...

its more about whether this period of ninety or so years is it or not...

not so much about the mind/body thing....

you could go on the assumption that we have a spirit (not mind) or not

im just saying it the philsophies im learning about now seem to explain everything in terms of an eternal spirit... which one must develop over eons.... as i said its a good theory that does explain and encourage self development

in the discussion of mind/body does it go into philsophies based on only have ninety or so years to get it right rather then whether the mind/body/spirit are seperate or eternal

im doing ancient knowledge at the mo im sure we'll get around to modern phil at some point ill talk about courses later in the week

Thomas from Presence

While Aquinas' views were influential, you have to remember that he was a Catholic of the 13th century and that he would accept ideas of the Catholic Church as true solely because these ideas came from the Church.

Personally I'm not exactly up at the front of the altar every week but to advocate on behalf of my namesake he did try to reasonably demonstrate the logical necessity of the teachings of catholicism. Obviously his success with this project is a separate debate but I don't think it fair to say that just took on a theological dogma without attempting to show a reasonable necessity for it.

In my own readings of Aquinas in the context of the church of his time there is a fair bit of potential for what a theologian would call heresy. Central to medieval and modern church practice is the appeal to intervention of saints. Since on the death the rational intellect would appear to be unable to experience anything it would seem difficult to reconcile this aspect of Aquinas with church teaching. How can one appeal to the intervention of a disembodied intellect? It'd be like screaming at your computer! I've never found out how he got out of that hole. My point his that he was even prone to a bit of heterodox deviation.


To address your second and third point:

quote:

---

Aristotle's De Anima and, by extension, the scholasticism of Thomas Aquinas give a the best introduction to popular western reasonable thinking on the subject.

---

(posted by Thomas from Presence)

I disagree. Whilst it's useful to know about Aquinas and Aristotle to understand how ideas on this subject developed in the West, you can't just ignore all the other philosophers and philosophical movements that came after them. That would be like learning about astronomy but stopping at Galileo!


quote:

---

Aquinas is still the only philosopher the Church would ever ascribe truth to.

---

OK, that's the church's view but are we going to accept something as true just because the Catholic Church maintains it is so? The Church does have opinions on this question, but the way you're presenting things, it makes it look as though that's the only valid source of answers. I'm wondering why you decide to post about Aquinas et al when it isn't relevant to the question being asked and why you insist that this is a religious question when it seems quite clear to me that it's not.

You are quite right. I left my own intentions to introducing those philosophers too unclear and I apologise for the confusion. I wasn't intending on pushing a Christian agenda. My own reading of Chewy's question was that on one hand he was looking for a western take on such matters as soul etc. I would argue that in the roots of European cosmology and 'death theory' begin chronologically from this era. It certainly isn't the only take but in my own study I found that the unfolding of philosophical discourse on the matter to be reaction and defence to this. If I were trying to get an insight into western metaphysical teaching on the matter of body/soul dichotomy I would start there and work forward chronologically to get a proper grounding into this unfolding dialectic (©Hegel).

I whole heartedly agree that these guys not the full story. My point is that it is another take that will lead to another point of view when followed true historically.

With regards to this being a religous question and I'm going to concede that maybe it isn't so much religous as I originally thought. The talk of eastern philosophy at the start alerted the religion detector but I certainly should have paid more attention to his last sentence:

i was wondering if there were any concept theories or philsophies that would conclude the 90's or so years of your life is it, from begin to end and is it for your spirit too...

Its certainly a question of life meaning which is deffo philosophical!

chewy

Or maybe you're wondering whether all philosophers think that there is something like a soul that exists before conception and/or survives after death - well, few modern, Western philosophers hold such views - I could go looking for some links but I don't even know if that's the question you wanted to have answered!

that is what i was asking...

simu

Originally posted by chewy
that is what i was asking...

Well, with most modern philosophers (all the ones I can think of anyway), the idea of an eternal soul doesn't even come up, it's not relevant to what they're trying to do. Mostly, they take the view that once you remove all the physical, material parts of a human, there is nothing left. My advice to you, for what it's worth, would be to get a book on the history of philosophy and this will let you see how philosophical problems have been stated, refined, debated etc throughout history and where the concerns of early 21st century philosophers lie.

There's a thread here where people have posted about books they found helpful as an introduction to philosophy:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157170
Have a look through it and see you should find a few titles you'd be interested in.

I hope this is of some help!

Also, you should ask your lecturers for more information on topics that interest you and challenge them if you don't agree with what they say. A lecturer who's any good will probably appreciate this and enjoy debating with students!

simu

With regards to this being a religous question and I'm going to concede that maybe it isn't so much religous as I originally thought. The talk of eastern philosophy at the start alerted the religion detector but I certainly should have paid more attention to his last sentence:

Thomas of Presence, ok, but read posts more carefully in future before you reply - initially, it looked to me like you were trying to convert people to Catholicism here:). If you want to continue discussing Aquinas or the Catholic Church and philosophy, start a new thread!

chewy

yeah i think i have to do a little homework