Citizenship tourists hit maternity services - Irish Examiner

arcadegame2004

Shown below is a report in today's Irish Examiner, which provides damning evidence of why we must vote "Yes". I urge all, especially "No' side people, to read this:




Citizenship tourists 'hit maternity services'

by Fionnan Sheahan
Political Correspondent

Non-Nationals women arriving in the late stages of pregnancy continues to place immense pressures on maternity hospitals, a leading maternity consultant said last night.

Consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist Paul Byrne wrote to Michael Martin in 2002 to alert him to the worsening situation caused by so-called citizenship tourists and their impact on services at the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin.

Stressing that his sole motivation was a concern for the health and well being of patients, Mr.Byrne said last night that the situation has not changed on the past two years.

"The idea of my letter was to alert them to what was going on. It was a relentless increase and it is still going up. The situation that causes us the problems are the people who are flying in during the latter stages of pregnancy. These are not Filipino nurses. They are not Brazilian meat factory workers or others working in this country," he said last night.

Mr. Byrne's letter from September 2002, obtained by the Irish Examiner under the Freedom of Information Act, was prompted by an incident at the time where a professional South African woman, who was pregnant with quads, arrived just 36 hours before going into premature labour.

In his letter he said it was common knowledge that Nigerian women arriving in the latter stages of pregnancy were paying £ 5,000 to an agency to come here.

The increase in African patients was causing Irish patients to go to other hospitals, as they did not want to be in a minority, but were afraid to speak about it for fear of being labelled racist.

Speaking to the Irish Examiner last night, Mr.Byrne said that while the number of non-national births was now evenly spread across the three maternity hospitals in Dublin, doctors were dealing with extremely difficult cases, sometimes involving HIV, TB, malaria, sickle cell disease and serious complications.

"When this all started, the text-books of obstetrics didn't deal with problems from African countries. We have had very complex cases," he said.

The number of non-national births at the hospital has more than doubled since 2000 and as it continues to rise, Mr.Byrne says a large numbher of cases can be ascribed to citizenship tourism.

"Anybody who says it is not happening just doesn't know what is happening," he said.

Supporting the Government's plans to close off the perceived automatic citizenship loophole in the forthcoming referendum, Dr.Byrne said Ireland appeared to be a backdoor into the EU....."

spongebob

What No POLL? this time.

Gwan back there boy !

M

ambasite

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Mr.Byrne said that while the number of non-national births was now evenly spread across the three maternity hospitals in Dublin,

The number of non-national births at the hospital has more than doubled since 2000 and as it continues to rise, Mr.Byrne says a large numbher of cases can be ascribed to citizenship tourism.

'the number'? are there any actual figures available for the number of non-national births in this country?

MadsL

Mr. Byrne's letter from September 2002, obtained by the Irish Examiner under the Freedom of Information Act, was prompted by an incident at the time where a professional South African woman, who was pregnant with quads, arrived just 36 hours before going into premature labour.

So she was premature!! How was she to know she was going to deliver early..?? "professional South African " - doesn't really sound like the "scrounger" that you are trying to make out she is...

Speaking to the Irish Examiner last night, Mr.Byrne said that while the number of non-national births was now evenly spread across the three maternity hospitals in Dublin, doctors were dealing with extremely difficult cases, sometimes involving HIV, TB, malaria, sickle cell disease and serious complications.

"When this all started, the text-books of obstetrics didn't deal with problems from African countries. We have had very complex cases," he said.

Since when were HIV, TB, malaria, sickle cell disease exclusively African diseases??? I would have thought Irish doctors of a certain age would have ample experience both of TB and AIDS.

Maleria isn't life-threatening and is well documented.

More than 45 million women—30 million of them in Africa—become pregnant in malaria-endemic areas each year. Women who have malaria infection during pregnancy are at risk of developing maternal anemia and consequent impaired fetal growth, two of the leading causes of low birth weight in newborns.

Malaria in pregnancy can be prevented and managed with appropriate, low-cost interventions.

]source

Is Sickle Cell only in African Americans?
Sickle cell is in many nationalities including African Americans, Africans, Arabs, Greeks, Italians, Latin Americans, and those from India. You can be Caucasian and have sickle cell disease or trait. All races should be screened for this hemoglobin at birth.

source


Oh, and Im back!

sceptre

I demand a superfluous poll.

bobbyjoe

Welcome back MaDsL!

damning evidence!
Right!!!!

Non-Nationals as has been repeated ad-nausiem includes British, EU members, Americans, people working here on work permits, foreign workers or students, spouses of Irish citizens etc.

Arcadegame could you find a story about someone having difficulties while pregnant travelling to Ireland to claim asylum?
Instead of this meaningless rubbish.

Regarding the anecdotal example he gives
Was she just off the plane? living here years on a valid work visa? a tourist? Does she want citizenship for her baby? She was “Pre mature” so arrived early ie unexpected, how early maybe she was planning on being at home for the birth. “Professional” doubt she’s want to give up her job to go live in Mosney with 20 quid a week and claim asylum.

In his letter he said it was common knowledge that Nigerian women arriving in the latter stages of pregnancy were paying £ 5,000 to an agency to come here.

So this doctor is also a special agent investigating international crime gangs in his spare time. Has he reported this to the Guards? Are they investigating this? Thats their job anyway if its true.

Mr Byrne should come up with some facts a figures then shouldn’t be hard. All this is anecdotal.

bobbyjoe

Got some facts and figures of my own here.

Unbooked maternity ward mums study shows babies more at risk
Check this out.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2002/03/30/story25722.asp

Dr Paul Byrne did a study in 2002.
This is the time he wrote to McDowell according to Arcadegames article. Its 2 years out of date but this letter is the one being used in the article and by McDowel to justify the referendum.

The study was into Unbooked maternity ward mums.
I presume unbooked means arriving at the hospital pregnant, not necessarily ready to go but maybe a few were.

There were 101 unbooked women during a two-year comparative study period at the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin.
Eleven of the unbooked women in the study were asylum-seekers who had newly arrived in Ireland (newly arrived that doesn’t suggest they came straight from the airport or boat plus how did he know they were asylum seekers?) and a further nine had booked in their country of origin, but arrived with no record of care

So say its 20 (though who knows about those 9 some could have been joining their husbands who work here or whatever) over the two years.
THIS put immense pressure on the maternity hospitals? If that’s all it takes we’re screwed I’m buying a birthing pool.

The Rotunda has 6000 births per year according to its website.
So that’s 12,000 over the two years.
There were 101 unbooked women in the study.
So .841% of births were unbooked over the two years.
20 (probably less) were asylum seekers which is .166% of all births were asylum seekers who were presenting late in pregnancy.
So this is what is straining the maternity wards.

What about these issues:
Maternity hospitals in St James and Loughlinstown have been closed.
The budget for the National Maternity Hospital in Holles St, fell from €5,726,000 in 2003 to €5,132,000 in 2004
The birth rate has increased after a dip in the late 80’s early 90’s.
There has been an increase in Irish people living abroad returning home to live.

Supporting the Government's plans to close off the perceived automatic citizenship loophole in the forthcoming referendum, Dr.Byrne said Ireland appeared to be a backdoor into the EU....."

Dr Byrne should talk about whats really causing the strain in the maternity wards instead on encouraging the racists.

*edited formating

seamus

Originally posted by MadsL
So she was premature!! How was she to know she was going to deliver early..?? "professional South African " - doesn't really sound like the "scrounger" that you are trying to make out she is...

To be fair, in this case, his motivation was probably the fact that she was carrying quadruplets. They are more likely to come prematurely, and premature can mean anything as close as three weeks before the due date. If she was expecting quads, she was also aware that she had a good chance of giving birth prematurely.

I would hazard a guess that he thought she was relying on a premature birth (although perhaps not 36 hours after arriving).

MadsL

I would hazard a guess that she was relying on a premature birth

For what???

Nowhere does this say that she even stayed in the country after this...

You are assuming that she was claiming asylum. Why? Because she was South African? Because all the 'good' doctor is relating here is a case where a woman arrived and immediately went into labour. Why is it remarkable? She had arrived from South Africa.

Is it possible that in the doctor's mind she was one of these 'non-nationals' with their 'problems'...

seamus

Originally posted by MadsL
blah

Sorry, post edited, I'm not drawing any conclusion on it at all.

MadsL

---

Unbooked maternity ward mums study shows babies more at risk


By Catherine Shanahan
PREGNANT women who show up unbooked at maternity hospitals to give birth are more likely to be young, unmarried, unemployed and second-time mothers.They are also more likely to have concealed their pregnancy and give birth to an underweight baby, with higher risk of still birth and neonatal death.

A two-year comparative study between booked and unbooked women at the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin found that of 101 unbooked women, in the 15-40 age group, 15 had concealed their pregnancy. Five of these were under 20 years.

Dr Paul Byrne, one of the study's authors, said the most worrying aspect of hidden pregnancy was that it normally involved more-at-risk women.

"They tend to be either terrified teenagers, living at home and afraid to tell anyone, or women from disadvantaged backgrounds. They could be drug addicts, or women not keen on being pregnant and in poor social circumstances.

"The reality is these are the women for whom pregnancy is potentially dangerous and who should have full medical care. Teens should be seen as a priority."

A spokeswoman for Treoir, the Federation of Services for Unmarried Parents, said the government's new Crisis Pregnancy Agency needed to look at removing the unmarried mother stigma among elements of the community where it still exists.

"The stigma is largely gone now, but there are pockets where secrecy is vital for some. Obviously when it comes to teens, this is very worrying. They need to know that they don't have to hide and give birth in their bedroom," Margo Doherty said.

Dr Byrne, consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist at the Rotunda, said the hospital was now seeing more unmarried than married mothers and that at least 20% of total pregnancies were non-nationals.

Eleven of the unbooked women in the study were asylum-seekers who had newly arrived in Ireland and a further nine had booked in their country of origin, but arrived with no record of care.

Three babies in the unbooked group were stillborn; another died after six hours and 22 were in neonatal intensive care. There were no deaths in the booked group, where the number of caesarean sections were almost triple that of the unbooked group and six babies were in neonatal intensive care.

Perinatal Outcome in Unbooked Women at the Rotunda Hospital is by Dr Paul Bryne, Dr Maura O'Donovan and Anne Treacy.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2002/03/30/story25722.asp

"They tend to be either terrified teenagers, living at home and afraid to tell anyone, or women from disadvantaged backgrounds. They could be drug addicts, or women not keen on being pregnant and in poor social circumstances.

Notice that less than 10% of those unbooked are asylum seekers...

during this time there were 11522 deliveries giving an incidence of unbooked pregnancies of 0.88%

So were are talking about an incidence rate of about 0.09% of all births...

BIG problem then :rolleyes:

Original report as it was published by the IMJ

Hobbes

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
*snip*

Very good points.

Here is one more. Voting yes or no will have effect on the maternity wards. All people* are given free medical treatment when it comes to pregnancy regardless of race, colour or creed.

They do however have to book in advance to get seen to at the time of pregnancy.

* Well women.

MadsL

They do however have to book in advance to get seen to at the time of pregnancy.

The what now? What are you on about...Are you proposing that if you don't book in then you will not be seen by a doctor...tad feckin harsh!

"They tend to be either terrified teenagers, living at home and afraid to tell anyone, or women from disadvantaged backgrounds. They could be drug addicts, or women not keen on being pregnant and in poor social circumstances. "

Hobbes

Originally posted by MadsL
The what now? What are you on about...Are you proposing that if you don't book in then you will not be seen by a doctor...tad feckin harsh!

You get seen but your supposed to book in advance.

Victor

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
I presume unbooked means arriving at the hospital pregnant, not necessarily ready to go but maybe a few were.

Unbooked means not not having a reservation*. Quite a few of the unbooked group are Irish and just don't realise.

* I presume the hospitals are happy to accept it to the nearest month and won't say " Sorry Madam, your appointment isn't until next week."

MadsL

Arcade are you EVER going to respond to the debunking of this 'report'.

You posted the thread, have the decency to defend the points you are trying make...








<challenge>Gauntlet</challenge>

Superman

MadsL, you killeds his agument. good work. Its funny how the only acceptable irish niggers are the ones on the irish team:D (joke!)

flogen

putting (joke) after it doesnt make it any less of a bigotted racist comment, you troll

Flogen

Superman

hey man i'm black and I think if you can't take the piss out of your self and your people then you got issues!

flogen

as far as I'm concerned, there is a loophole in Irish law. It may or may not be the subject to abuse, but thats not the point, the fact is it COULD be.
Its all well and good for the for side to post non-descriptive articles like above, and for the against side to say its not as big a deal as we are told (or like Ivana Bacik to say its up to the airlines to stop heavily pregenent women from getting flights). The fact is, we shouldnt rely on others to stop this, and we shouldnt wait for it to explode either. It might not, but thats hardly a reason to not safeguard against it.

I totally agree that FF have dodged debates, and been quiet with its info, and I wouldnt be surprised if it is a ploy to distract us from real current issues, but so what? We're all educated people here, we can all find things out for ourselves, we dont need Bertie to spoonfeed it to us.
We can go and read up on it ourselves, and we can also go and tell the FFers to shut up when they go on about it, and get them to talk about something related to local or european issues.

oh and superman, I dont think your colour is an issue, really. The word '******' can be used as a term of endearment, or as a joke, but it can also be used as an insult. I agree that we should all be able to take the piss out of each other, but I dont agree so much when it comes to words used to generalise and demonise entire races.

Flogen

Wolfie

Originally posted by bobbyjoe

Dr Byrne should talk about whats really causing the strain in the maternity wards instead on encouraging the racists.

Your facts make interesting reading. Your conclusions unfortunately are misguided. My own research into the issue consists of knowing maternity nurses and having reason to attend the Coombe maternity hospital on occasions before the influx of 'refugees' and after.

There is little doubt that over the last few years the majority of births dealt with in the coombe hospital have been from non-national people. I have witnessed this with my own eyes, and my friends who work there have often spoke of it themselves. This is what is putting pressure on the maternity service, rather than your 101 unbooked arrivals.

Also, I quote your last statement because of the seriousness of what you are implying. You think that anyone who opts to vote YES for a sensible amendment to the Irish constitution to redress an arror which has left our policy the most lax in all of Europe in terms of immigration.. is a racist?? I honestly think that people are far too quick to throw that slanderous accusation around these days. I'm certainly not a racist, yet I believe the amendment is correct. Indeed, I go so far as to say that anyone who doesnt think the amendment is correct either have ulterior motives (ie. Sinn Fein's changing of the good friday agreement.. it is this they are against rather than the content of the amendment) or do not understand what they are talking about. Thats all part of democracy however, so you are free to express your opinions (even if misguided or leaning in a hidden direction), but please refrain from calling your political opponents racist.

I would prefer the term: 'logical' or even 'sensible' myself.

MadsL

My own research into the issue consists of knowing maternity nurses and having reason to attend the Coombe maternity hospital on occasions before the influx of 'refugees' and after.

Therefore your 'research' is actually conjecture and hearsay.

There is little doubt that over the last few years the majority of births dealt with in the coombe hospital have been from non-national people. I have witnessed this with my own eyes, and my friends who work there have often spoke of it themselves. This is what is putting pressure on the maternity service

yes, there is doubt. And that is not just me, the Irish Human Rights Commission also puts doubt on these figures.

There is no analysis or breakdown of the figures to show the particular nationality or legal status of non-national mothers, nor does the Note provide any information on the length of time that such mothers have been in the State before giving birth or whether their husbands or partners might be Irish or EU citizens, or citizens of the new accession states, or whether the mothers may already have other children who are Irish citizens. When the Government was pressed to produce figures for the number of women arriving in Dublin hospitals in the last stages of pregnancy, the numbers were quite low and there has been a suggestion from some of the maternity hospitals that as many as half of such women are Irish. Nor was there any qualitative data on reasons for giving birth in the State, which might, for example, include factors unrelated to citizenship such as the lack of medical facilities in the mother's country of the origin. As a result these figures are inadequate in many respects as a basis for taking a major policy decision that may affect the rights of significant numbers of children born in Ireland in the future

source

I put it to you that it is cuts in Heath Service funding, coupled with the highest Irish Birth rate in 15 years that is proking talks of crisis. FF of course would prefer that we blame the non-nationals 'abusing' the system, it distracts from asking deeper questions about the state of the health service.

The budget for the National Maternity Hospital in Holles St, fell from €5,726,000 in 2003 to €5,132,000 in 2004

According to the CSO's yearly summary report, 60,500 births were registered in Ireland in 2002, which is the highest birth rate seen here in 15 years.

It may get worse...proposals by the Medical Manpower Forum to close all specialist hospitals and a number of general hospitals within the State, will result in the closure of up to 12 of the country's 22 maternity units.

Ireland spends just 6.5% of GDP on healthcare compared to an EU average of 8.3%

Ireland has a higher annual budget than Switzerland, yet Switzerland spends $3,857 per person on health compared to $1,569 in Ireland.

But, it's all the fault of those 'non-nationals'...

bonkey

Originally posted by Wolfie
Also, I quote your last statement because of the seriousness of what you are implying.

Don't you mean "what you think he's implying"?

You think that anyone who opts to vote YES for a sensible amendment to the Irish constitution to redress an arror which has left our policy the most lax in all of Europe in terms of immigration.. is a racist??

Funny, I read that comment as being one which said that it encouraged the racists, not that everyone who voted yes was automatically a racist.

But its interesting to note how balanced an opinion you show when interpreting relatively ambiguous comments from those with an opposing view to you on this.

Indeed, I go so far as to say that anyone who doesnt think the amendment is correct either have ulterior motives (ie. Sinn Fein's changing of the good friday agreement.. it is this they are against rather than the content of the amendment) or do not understand what they are talking about.

Now this is just plain insulting to everyone who votes (or would choose to vote) differently to you. You take offence at a comment which says that a doctor should have known his comment would encourager racists, deciding to interpret that to mean that the doctor should have known his comment would find favour amongst the yes voters, all of whom are racist.

You counter this, by arguing that all who support the bill are either clueless about it, or have an ulterior motive. How, ummm, rational and balanced of you.

Tell you what Wolfie...why don't you tell me what my ulterior motive is, or exactly what I don't understand?

so you are free to express your opinions (even if misguided or leaning in a hidden direction), but please refrain from calling your political opponents racist.

Call them stupid or two-faced instead, like you did. Yes?

I would prefer the term: 'logical' or even 'sensible' myself.

Anyone who can reduce either side's logic to such a short list as "ulterior motive or uninformed" is neither being logical nor sensible.

But prefer what you like. Its clear you already interpret what others say how you like.

jc

smalltalker

Originally posted by arcadegame2004

The increase in African patients was causing Irish patients to go to other hospitals, as they did not want to be in a minority, but were afraid to speak about it for fear of being labelled racist.

Oh my god, the irony. "Excuse me nurse, all these black women in the room are distracting me from my excruciating labour. Please, I don't want to be in a minority, like they are."

You can run to another, whites-only hospital, "ladies", but you can't hide: you ARE racists.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by MadsL
yes, there is doubt. And that is not just me, the Irish Human Rights Commission also puts doubt on these figures.

The Human Rights Commission which is headed by a former leader of FG in the Seanad, Mr.Maurice Manning? Would that be the one you are talking about? Hmmmm....

smalltalker

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The Human Rights Commission which is headed by a former leader of FG in the Seanad, Mr.Maurice Manning? Would that be the one you are talking about? Hmmmm....

I don't get it... aren't FG supporting the referendum proposal? And it's Dr Maurice Manning, for what it's worth.

MadsL

Headline: HRC 'biased' claims Arcadegame2004

Think Aracade Think. Don't you think this is a FF 'spin' to cover up serious problems in the health service...massive budget cuts, closing maternity wards. Isn't it just possible???

bobbyjoe

Wolfie: You think that anyone who opts to vote YES for a sensible amendment to the Irish constitution to redress an arror which has left our policy the most lax in all of Europe in terms of immigration.. is a racist??

Didn't say that, Bonkey read it right. I said comments such as those by the Dr which have been demolished already in this thread encourages racism.
For example I've heard people shouting on the bus about (INSERT RACIAL SLUR) getting free houses, phones and cars. Similarly other false allegations such as foreigners blocking up the maternity wards give amunition to the neanderthal dumb asses who like to shout abuse at people of a different colour.

Wolfie: Your facts make interesting reading.

Thanks, how about supplying some of your own instead of what your friends who work there tell you.

Wolfie:Thats all part of democracy however, so you are free to express your opinions (even if misguided or leaning in a hidden direction),

Thanks for letting me express mny opinions, how about backing up your opinions with some FACTS, helps a lot. If you want to see why the no vote is the correct thing to do check out the what are you voting.... thread there's plenty of facts there.

arcadegame2004

I feel that whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals, that that INEVITABLY will cause a major drain on Health-Service resources, irrespective of how much funding the Health-Service gets.

I do not deny that besides addressing a real problem, that one other factor in calling the referendum may be to court popularity by tackling a populist issue. But not all populist issues are malign. Some popular issues are actually correct. And dealing with this is one of them.

Hobbes

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
For example I've heard people shouting on the bus about (INSERT RACIAL SLUR) getting free houses, phones and cars.

Best one I heard (which is urban legend now), an Asylum seeker gets on the bus and can't get the babies pushchair onto the bus so she leaves it at the stop and exclaims "The government will buy me a new one".

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Bobbyjoe
I said comments such as those by the Dr which have been demolished already in this thread encourages racism.

Maybe then the reason why the Masters of the Rotunda played down their conversations on the non-national births issue with Minister McDowell because of a fear of being accused of stirring up racism? After all your reaction to Dr.Paul Byrne's observations seems to show that had they spoken out publicly to say what the minutes of meetings with the Ministers shows they said, they would indeed be accused of "encouraging racism".

I am against racism , but I am equally opposed to asylum-seekers getting special treatment in the allocation of local-authority housing. The free housing accusation is true by the way, and made all the more obscene by the fact that thousands of our own people are homeless.

MadsL

whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals

Source!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or did you read this in the Irish Sun...Post a feckin link for once.

Non-nationals again :rolleyes: when will you drop this nonsense..

whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals, that INEVITABLY will cause a major drain on Health-Service resources, irrespective of how much funding the Health-Service gets.

WTF??? Non-nationals have half-vulcan bodies now ???
"She appears to have an alien in her abdomen, Doctor. It's the damnest thing."
"I'm a doctor Jim, but I never saw the like..."

Non-nationals - the automatic money vacuum...

God what twaddle...


irrespective of how much funding the Health-Service gets...

It isn't. Funding is being cut. THAT is the problem. Can you NOT see that. Or does it HAVE to be these wierd non-national thingys..

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I feel that whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals, that that INEVITABLY will cause a major drain on Health-Service resources, irrespective of how much funding the Health-Service gets.

Yes, but the point is that these people are more likely to be "medical care shopping" than "citizenship shopping". Remove the ability for their kids to be Irish, and they still get free medical care etc. for their birth.

I do not deny that besides addressing a real problem,

Have you not been reading all the threads you've been participating in, where you ahve yet to show - in any reliable way other than saying "I feel" or "It is clear to me" - that this does address the problem?

But not all populist issues are malign. Some popular issues are actually correct. And dealing with this is one of them.

How is it populist to ignore the majority of those polled who say "we would have liked more time to debate this properly"?

Its populist only in that it appeals to a loud section of the community who have been vociferous in calling for change, not in that it appeals to the majority in the form offered.

jc

MadsL

http://www.rte.ie/tv/nomansland/entitlements.html

In general, asylum-seekers may apply to be put on local authority housing lists but their application will not be considered until residence is established.

Where do you get this 'free house, car, phone, etc' crap from Arcade...???

alleepally

I would love everyone to read Gene Kerrigans article in last weeks Sunday Independent. I have been undecided on this issue for some time but I have always fel that this referendum is purely designed to capitalise on the immigrant platform. Everyone talks about it. Everyone is concerened about it. It's a vote winner for Fianna Fail.

I cannot be persuaded otherwise. Good friends of mine comment about immigrants and say stuff like "oh, they get accomodation, phone calls.." etc. I always say the same thing. If they were all white like you and were all immigrants from the USA for example - would you be saying the same thing. EVERY SINGLE TIME I say that, they cannot answer it! It speaks volumes.

It's the same attitude we have to world disasters. A walkway in Paris collapses - big headlines, big news.... Mud slides in Haiti and Dominican Republic almost have an "and finally" billing. If 2,000 people were killed in California it would be THE leading news item for a couple of weeks.

Depending on the colour of a persons skin and their "economic importance" determines how we treat them in a news item and how we view them as immigrants.

Now, back to the Gene Kerrigan article. This verbalised for me a lot of my feelings and has determined the way I will vote.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1187025&issue_id=10911

You'll have to register for Unison to view this but if you want, pm me and I'll forward the full article to you.

bobbyjoe

Arcadegame. Why are you using figures of non-nationals, its been noted several times that this includes a whole range of people here legitimately?
Voting yes will make absolutely no or negligible difference to the numbers on non-nationals giving birth. We’ve established that Asylum seekers are a tiny proportion of births. If we want to reduce the numbers of non-nationals giving birth why not restrict all the work permits we so generously give out. (I’m against that of course but it’s an example)

“Arcadegame:“After all your reaction to Dr.Paul Byrne's observations seems to show that had they spoken out publicly to say what the minutes of meetings with the Ministers shows they said, they would indeed be accused of "encouraging racism".

Let me get this straight.
He conducts a study into unbooked mothers.
As you see in the article above and in the study Madsl linked to that asylum seekers are a tiny .something proportion of unbooked births.
That is a fact.
Coupled with the facts that funding issues, increased population and closing maternity wards.
The conclusion then found is that it’s the asylum seekers fault.
WTF!!!
Its staring you in the face!!!!!
It’s the same as the eejit on the bus and I saw Arcadegame repeat it in another thread. Free houses cars etc. Ignorant, ill informed opinion being stated as fact even though the evidence supplied suggests the opposite.

“Arcadegame: The free housing accusation is true by the way”

You said that they get free houses in another thread. Free housing, B&B’s or Mosney, would you prefer we sent a family to live on the street. How about letting them work and support themselves.

“Arcadegame:“Maybe then the reason why the Masters of the Rotunda played down their conversations on the non-national births issue with Minister McDowell because of a fear of being accused of stirring up racism

Or maybe its because they knew it was completly untrue and was going to be used as a political football.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Hobbes


They do however have to book in advance to get seen to at the time of pregnancy.

Surely they already got a seeing to nine months previously?? ARF ARF etc.

Back on topic. arcadegame2004, I had heard about your posts previously, although this is the first time I've checked any of your threads. They were actually worse than I expected.

Reactionary rubbish with figures clearly pulled straight from your arse would actually be too kind a description of them.

My father is head of the lab in the Coombe Hospital, he says around 6% of births in the Coombe in 2003 were to non-nationals. Obviously this is anecdotal as is your 'figure', but I would tend to believe this is far closer to the real figure than 25% or even 'the majority' :rolleyes: of births.

In his letter he said it was common knowledge that Nigerian women arriving in the latter stages of pregnancy were paying £ 5,000 to an agency to come here.

Oh yeah, common knowledge to who exactly?

The increase in African patients was causing Irish patients to go to other hospitals, as they did not want to be in a minority, but were afraid to speak about it for fear of being labelled racist.

God forbid anyone would have a child in the same hospital as an AFRICAN!!!! They could have infected the whole place with their blackness!!! Ignorant racists having children, news at 11 :rolleyes:

"Anybody who says it is not happening just doesn't know what is happening," he said.

'I am right and anyone who says I amn't is wrong and ignorant of the situation. How dare you disagree with me? Did I mention I was a doctor?' :rolleyes:

MrPudding

Originally posted by Hobbes
Best one I heard (which is urban legend now), an Asylum seeker gets on the bus and can't get the babies pushchair onto the bus so she leaves it at the stop and exclaims "The government will buy me a new one".

No Hobbes seriously, my mates,mates,mates,mates, sisters,boyfriends, cousins girlfriend was actually on that bus and heard it.

I actually feel guilty, I have tried to point this out before but our friend ignored it. My GF is French and I am from NI. We had a kid in the Coombe in 2002. We actually added to the non-national birth figure. NOT the asylum seeker births the non-national births. Did you hear that arcade? Do you understand the difference? Also my little boy had his cord wrapped round his neck and wasn't breathing when he was born and ended up in the intesvive care unit for a week. So now I am super guilty, not only did we add to the non-national births but we were also a drain on the countries already tight health budget.

MrP

Victor

Originally posted by Wolfie
There is little doubt that over the last few years the majority of births dealt with in the coombe hospital have been from non-national people.

By "majority" do you mean more than 20% or more than 50%?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I feel that whenever non-nationals are accounting for 25% of all births in our hospitals

25% in some hospitals.

arcadegame2004

It actually states in the Jim Cusacks quoting of the minutes of the meeting between the Masters of the Rotunda Hospital and Michael Martin that the majority of the non-national births are to asylum-seekers. Dr.Paul Byrne emphasised in the Irish Examiner report that these people are not Filipino nurses of Brazilian factory workers. I have no reason to doubt his honesty.

Mr.Pudding, I know that 80% of the 25% of births that are to non-nationals in this country (including 21% outside Dublin) are to non-EU nationals, so you wouldn't be counted in those figures.

Also, I am very sorry to hear about the health problems your baby had. Hope everything's okay now.

MadsL

It actually states in the Jim Cusacks quoting of the minutes of the meeting between the Masters of the Rotunda Hospital and Michael Martin that the majority of the non-national births are to asylum-seekers.

Link? Or are you scared of linking to the stormfront site where you found this posted.
So I will...http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129217
Where does this article say "majority"? The only figure I can find is "This represented a rise of 19.9 per cent of all births in Dublin in 2002 to 23.9 per cent in 2003."

As I pointed out before, the three masters were complaining about social welfare payments being made at 32 weeks..

"We are writing to update you on what is currently happening in three Dublin maternity hospitals. Many women who have low-risk pregnancies are being allocated housing and given access to maternity care in areas other than Dublin.

Unfortunately, the Department of Social Welfare and the welfare officers pay women their entitlements at 32 weeks of pregnancy. This allows them to relocate to Dublin and they arrive into any of the three Dublin maternity hospitals in labour, having received no antenatal care and we have no access to important medical information such as their HIV status. This severely compromises our ability to deliver care.

"We cannot emphasise strongly enough the importance of a unified approach by the various Government departments in dealing with this problem.

"If both the Department of Justice and Department of Health recognise the difficulties of retaining many thousands of women in Dublin then the Department of Social Welfare needs to ensure that welfare payments are not being made available until after the delivery of the baby and that they can only be claimed in the region where accommodation and medical services are being provided. We hope that you will be able to do something in terms of co-ordinating the Government's approach to this problem," the letter stated.

Dr.Paul Byrne emphasised in the Irish Examiner report that these people are not Filipino nurses of Brazilian factory workers. I have no reason to doubt his honesty.

I just doubt his integrity. His report proved one thing. He stands up and says the opposite and gives not one fact or figure to back up his case.

Mr.Pudding, I know that 80% of the 25% of births that are to non-nationals in this country (including 21% outside Dublin) are to non-EU nationals, so you wouldn't be counted in those figures.

Did you pull these figures out of your hole as well. Where do these come from - 80% of the 25% (including the 21%) of the what now??? Who's included what now?

http:// that's the button you are looking for USE it!!!

Wolfie

ArcadeGame is right on the button here. I dont want to get drawn into a long drawn out debate, as I have responsibilities that take me away from boards on occasion, and am also fighting my own political battle of being banned for no good reason apart from pissing off a mod! So, I will keep this short:

What many have said here is that my friends who work in one of the hospitals in questions everyday, and see with their own eyes, and treat these patients, are talking rubbish and that they cannot be regarded as a credible source? Come on... when is the last time you NO camp do-gooders were in a maternity hospital? Sure, you probably thought it was great to see such ethnic diversity anyway... Regardless of the bottom line to the Irish economy.

You want facts? Here is the only fact you need to know and consider in this issue:

FACT : Ireland is the only country in the EU which allows automatic citizenship to a child born in this country and therefore the parents of said child get to stay - regardless of their criminal history or status. This makes Ireland a soft touch way for illegal (I am emphasising the word ILLEGAL here.. against the law chaps) immigrants to remain in Ireland, or gain entry to other EU countries. This is a loophole, a flaw, which needs fixing.

QED chaps.. QED... logic and sense should prevail! And it will prevail too.].. why? Because not one of the NO camp have a single, logical argument as to why the amendment should not go ahead.. and believe me.. I've listened to all their waffle on TV and radio about this...

Was it Winston Churchill who said that the scariest thing about democracy was that the ordinary people got to vote? Sometimes I agree with him.. but power to the people and return to us freedom!

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by MadsL
Link? Or are you scared of linking to the stormfront site where you found this posted.
So I will...http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-129217
Where does this article say "majority"? The only figure I can find is "This represented a rise of 19.9 per cent of all births in Dublin in 2002 to 23.9 per cent in 2003."

As I pointed out before, the three masters were complaining about social welfare payments being made at 32 weeks..






I just doubt his integrity. His report proved one thing. He stands up and says the opposite and gives not one fact or figure to back up his case.





Did you pull these figures out of your hole as well. Where do these come from - 80% of the 25% (including the 21%) of the what now??? Who's included what now?

http:// that's the button you are looking for USE it!!!

But http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1170554&issue_id=10785 is actually the origina website that this article was published on. Jim Cusack is NOT a Stormfront journalist!

MadsL

Thank for the link Arcade...now where does it say "majority" I'm having trouble seeing that word.

What many have said here is that my friends who work in one of the hospitals in questions everyday, and see with their own eyes, and treat these patients, are talking rubbish and that they cannot be regarded as a credible source?

I admit they have their point of view. However they do NOT have access to the legal residency status of their patients, and therfore cannot say that these people are illegal or legal immigrants.

In 2003, there were 22,895 births in Dublin, over a quarter were to non-national mothers. Nigerian nationals accounted for 6.6% (1,515) births, UK nationals 3% (677); Romanian 2% (469); Chinese 1% (239) and Filipino 1% (235).
Figures citied in Lobe and Osayande v Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Nigeria is a country we offer asylum status to. These are not illegal imigrants. Other Nigerians may be legal settled here outside of the asylum process.

regardless of their criminal history or status.

What absolute nonsense...

The factors which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform MUST consider before deciding to deport someone. These are listed at Section 3 (6) of the Immigration Act 1999:

(a) the age of the person;
(b) the duration of residence in the State of the person;
(c) the family and domestic circumstances of the person;
(d) the nature of the person?s connection with the State, if any;
(e) the employment (including self-employment) record of the person;
(f) the employment (including self-employment) prospects of the person;

(g) the character and conduct of the person both within and (where relevant and ascertainable) outside the State (including any criminal convictions);;

(h) humanitarian considerations.
(i) any representations duly made by or on behalf of the person;
(j) the common good; and
(k) considerations of national security and public policy

This makes Ireland a soft touch way for illegal (I am emphasising the word ILLEGAL here.. against the law chaps) immigrants

Hmm illegal UK nationals???, Romanians (Roma persecution - probably asylum cases)
Chinese (students and workers largely) Filipino (large numbers of nurses in this group)


The FACT is that the numbers just don't add up to the commonly perceived view of every non-national as somehow an illegal immigrant or abuser of the system.

The reason that "Ireland is the only country in the EU which allows automatic citizenship to a child born in this country" is the fact that the aspirations of the 1916 Proclamation were to ‘cherish all the children of the nation equally’

If this amendment is passed all the children of the nation will no longer
be equal at birth, some will be citizens and others non-nationals.

Other countries have built strong citizens of it's immigrants, allowing their children rights of citizenship based on the Jus soli principle, other EU states have used Jus sanguinis. Ireland is somewhat unique in having a joint system, which allows both those born here and those born to children of Irish emigrees to claim citizenship.

To amend one side of this in the constitution allows for the slightly bizarre rights of a US citizen to fill out an online form and claim an Irish passport like this without ever setting foot on Irish soil.
Notice that your US cousins regard holding a passport as 'a novelty' item. And also cite free medical care as one of the benefits. Welfare tourists, if you like.

Lets compare this to the foreign citizens who have fled torture in some cases, often risking their lives to reach here. I suggest you read Amnesty International's latest report on Nigeria

In case you think these people are not reaching Ireland, the Centre for the Care of Survivors of Torture (CCST) in Dublin has treated more than 650 individuals so far this year. Of these, 67 per cent originated in Africa.

These peoples' children, if this law is passed, will not have 'the novelty' of an Irish passport. They may not even have the protection of their parents.

Pass this amendment if you wish, if it makes you feel somehow 'safer'. I just hope you can read the Proclaimation with a clear conscience afterward?' and read it alongside another proclaimation so much part of this nation's history...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Now how will you vote...

arcadegame2004

If this amendment is passed all the children of the nation will no longer be equal at birth..

I disagree. I do not consider the children of asylum-seekers to be children of the nation. I consider the children of Irish people to be the children of the nation.

Regarding your point MadsL on Nigeria, I reply that even so, asylum-seekers from their should claim asylum in the FIRST EU country of entry. Which isn't Ireland. I will not be moved from this position.

MadsL

I consider the children of Irish people to be the children of the nation.

So, think carefully Arcade, what nationality is my daughter? She's seven. Born in Holles St.

MadsL

---

article

---

The proposed changes to the constitution in the citizenship referendum will fuel the fires of racism, a group of doctors warned today.

The doctors claimed it was morally disgraceful that the Government had failed to use the State’s booming economy over the last decade to improve public services.

They also accused the Government of attempting to deflect anger away from the real issues of the lack of funding in the health sector.

Dr Juliet Bressan said: “The Government has now clearly tried to scapegoat women and their children for the failures of the Celtic Tiger to address poverty, housing and health care in Ireland.”

Doctors presented a letter, due to be published in the medical news later this week, urging health care workers to support patients and calling for a 'no' vote in the referendum.

On June 11 voters will decide on whether to change the constitution to prevent people from claiming Irish citizenship solely on the basis of giving birth to a child in Ireland.

The letter was signed by 30 doctors, including GPs and consultants from around the country, Mayo TD Dr Jerry Cowley and Senator Mary Henry.

Senator Henry called for a thorough review of immigration and refugee policies.

She said: “There are so many problems in this area that to start with this one is quite incredible.

“I hope very much that this referendum will not be carried because this is just another small effort at decreasing the democracy of this country.”

She added that while Justice Minister Michael McDowell was not racist, the referendum was fanning the flames of racism around the country.

Dr Austin O’Carroll, a GP from north inner city Dublin who cares for several hundred non-national patients said the Government was scaremongering.

He said: “This unnecessary referendum has lead to the stigmatisation of our patients.

“The Government campaign has been inhumane in its affect and there has been a total lack of empathy with the people who will be affected by this measure,” he said.

Dr O’Carroll added: “The arguments so far will only lead to increased suffering by our patients, a most human and warm group of people.”

Hobbes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I disagree. I do not consider the children of asylum-seekers to be children of the nation. I consider the children of Irish people to be the children of the nation.

Only one Asylum seeker has to have been approved to stay here and the child becomes Irish (at the time of birth).

So shoots that down doesn't it.

arcadegame2004

Dr.Jerry Cowley, Independent TD. Senator Mary Henry, FG. Hmmm... I sense political point-scoring.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Hobbes
Best one I heard (which is urban legend now), an Asylum seeker gets on the bus and can't get the babies pushchair onto the bus so she leaves it at the stop and exclaims "The government will buy me a new one".

You got it all wrong, Hobbes. it was a taxi, not a bus. And while it hadn't actually happened to the taxi driver who told me about it, it had happened to his best mate taxi driver, so it just has to be true. :rolleyes:

MadsL

I sense political point-scoring.

So one doctor who's actual study reaches far different conclusions, whose colleagues in the study 'distance' themselves from his statements, hits the nail on the head as far as you are concerned. 30 doctors are just political points scoring. Really?

Arcade, listen. You are being conned. The Health Service is in crisis, but minorities will ALWAYS be blamed for the problems inherent in the political system.

Lets take a few recent examples. Teenage mothers getting pregnant to jump housing queues. The reality was less than one in five got housing.

Gay men were largely 'to blame' according to the media for the AIDS/Hep/Syph 'crisis', and vicitimised and discriminated against legally and socially. Now we have these 'complicated African diseases', guess what they are AIDS/Hep/Syph - do you want the same untruths and discrimination happening?

The media has pumped and pumped the 'refugee crisis' to the point where we actually believe all the tosh that they come out with. The facts simply do not add up.

So, Arcade. My question is simple - what nationality is my daughter, she was born in Holles St?