Is Emigration on the increase again?

pedro ferio-vti

Mods, feel free to move this if its in the wrong section.

Ok very briefly, i'm thinking of emigrating in the not too distant future for numerous reasons (with being ripped off almost everywhere I go somewhere at the top of that amazing list). And a lot of people I know who are in my age group (20-23 yr olds) are doing the same. I was just wondering is emigration on the increase as a whole again?

I can remember back in the early 90's when some of my relatives were simply getting their free education over here in Ireland and then taking it to the UK, Oz and the US. Since then, Emigration has decreased significantly according to numerous economic reports throughout the 90's thanks to our Celtic Tiger which died around the turn of the century.

I was just wondering about the general concensus from you guys, is Emigration on the increase again? Are we in a sense going backwards to the 80's and early 90's where emigration was 1 of our main exports? From what I can see it is, soaring house prices, cost of living (RipOff Ireland), quality of life, the governments inability to run a country properly etc etc. I'd just like to hear opinions from you guys as well as it's a very hard figure and subject to quantify.

Thanks
Pete

rymus

if it adds or answers your question; I'm testing the emigration waters at the moment with a view to moving to England in the coming 12 months. I've been thinking about it for ages, but now I'm finally going to go and at least try to find a better job. It'd be nice to be able to live without being ripped off at every corner aswell.

pedro ferio-vti

Cheers Ry,

It does answer it somewhat, as if I see this thread going a couple of pages long or whatever I know that i'm not the only 1 with this on my mind at the moment, so i'd like to see lots of replies on this subject if possible.

It is a big decision to be making and hopefully this will help a few ppl gain a little insight if they are thinking about emigrating because it is a very hard thing to do.

Pete

Sleepy

Yup, I think you're right. There's certainly a new brain drain starting. 2 of my best friends have emmigrates, two more have just returned and a whole heap more only spend long enough in Ireland to finance their next round the world trip...

Thought about it quite a lot myself and, honestly, why wouldn't we? We can get better paid jobs abroad and have a lower cost of living. More than likely in a better climate too. So, just one question: what are we all still doing here!?

soma

Well I did an IT degree in DCU 5 years ago - and 100% of my class left & got good jobs (if they wanted them).

However, since the crash, I think alot of the grads of this course have up & left to london etc.. as you haven't got many job prospects in dublin/ireland if you are an IT grad with feck-all experience.

Leaving Ireland is *always* in the back of my mind, but leaving family (particularly as e.g. my mother lives alone) is the part that makes it the hardest.

OfflerCrocGod

No, I'm happy in Ireland - I dont see this huge problem you guys have with the country - but on the other hand I never buy anything (food only) so I would not feel this terrible rip-off you all talk about. If that's the only reason you have of leaving Ireland....well it's pretty shallow, whatever you guys want I suppose:dunno:. As a matter of fact skilled workers are actually coming into Ireland from the rest of the world at a greater rate then leaving it I'd say.

Agent Smith

My family emigrated in 1981 to canada ( before i was born), my fatehr now claims he should have stayed there.... they returned in 1984

altho he has work, (bricklayer) the ratio of incoming to outgoing is stiil the same,

the free education bill was a great idea back in the early 90's. but we have to clamp down on the "breeding for emigration" mentality that has started to creep back into ireland,

people should look at the figures....


altho we have one of the largest average wages in the eu, we are also one of the most dearest countrys to live in....


oh how i remember woorking in romania last year, pint 30c, a meal in a nice resterant $4, even net access was cheep...

eth0_

I'd have to agree a lot of people my age are leaving the country, but most are only off on the 1 year visas that Canada/Australia/New Zealand are offering, I don't know anyone who has moved for good (yet).

I don't understand people emigrating to England though...move somewhere decent! England is just like Ireland except with less of a rip-off culture.

rymus

It's alot cheaper to come back to Ireland from England if you ultimately decide you've made a mistake and aren't happy.

rs

Family emigrated to Canada in 1989.

Parents happy in Canada.

I came back to Ireland in 1998, in search of work.

Brother moved to Tokyo two years ago, in search of work (with a debt of 50,000 dollars from Canadian Uni (about 30,000 euro)

Sister moved back to Dublin too last year.

Only one sister left in Canada, trying to find a job so she can save up enough to leave Canada. Has never been able to find a full time job in Canada (is 24 now). Only part time service industy stuff.

Sure Ireland is expensive, but I'll take expensive with a decent job over cheap with no job propects any day of the week. Although I admit my timing was lucky, as I arrived in the middle of the celtic tiger.

I'm not saying that Ireland is great, but times have been hard in a lot of places for the last few years. There's a lot to be said for free education. My brother will be 30 before he pays off his Uni debts. 30 years old just to have a masters degree and be debt free.

There's a lot to be said for free education.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

eth0_

That's true, my friend who is from Canada and moved home last year after living here for about 4-5 years was telling me the job market there is TERRIBLE unless you're really highly skilled.

Civilian_Target

I'll probably end up abroad for at least some of my life. There's only a few hundred non-teaching jobs for Physists in Ireland, so I'd going to end up spending some time away, probably on the continent, if I do decide to continue in Physics.

There's nothing that much wrong with Ireland, people bitch about the expense, the housing market, etc. but at the end of the day, would you rather live in the north (with all its troubles) or somewhere equally cheap and rotten. The fact is, almost everywhere that's nice to live in is also expensive to live in. And Ireland's a pretty nice place to live.

Imposter

I left Ireland just over 2 years ago and I don't regret it for a moment. When I left there were no jobs for IT graduates. Were I to return now i'd probably get a job but mainly because I have 2 year experience now.

The wages here would be roughly equal to those in Ireland. The funny thing is my tax (income tax and social security) is higher but so is my standard of living.

As for making the move and actually moving no matter what you probably will always have doubts. You will miss certain things about Ireland, mainly family and friends but no matter where you are, and even if you detest where you end up, Ireland is never that far away.

But on the other hand you will meet new and interesting people, see what life is like in a different culture and get to experience that in a way that is not possible if you are just there on holiday. You will grow to like and dislike things about that country just as you probably do with Ireland.

But at least you won't be saying to yourself in 20 years 'what if I went there when i had the chance'. I'd say to anyone thinking of leaving to just go for it. You can always return be it in 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years or just occasionally for a holiday.

lodgepole

Originally posted by eth0_
That's true, my friend who is from Canada and moved home last year after living here for about 4-5 years was telling me the job market there is TERRIBLE unless you're really highly skilled.

I'm moving there in October, I have a sound engineering cert and a diploma in Television Production so hopefully i'll be alright getting something.

I'm leaving because I want to get out of this kip for a while. Also because I know for a fact that I won't be able to move out of home and live in Dublin on any wage i'll be able to get in the industry I want to work in.

SuprSi

I'm also looking at getting out of here at some stage either late this year or early next, preferably to Sweden, Holland, or Denmark. Like others, I'm sick to death of being ripped off, and now lately hearing my Dad complaining about it too, which he's never done!

Somewhere with proper winters and proper summers would be nice!

PBC_1966

Originally posted by rymus
if it adds or answers your question; I'm testing the emigration waters at the moment with a view to moving to England in the coming 12 months. I've been thinking about it for ages, but now I'm finally going to go and at least try to find a better job. It'd be nice to be able to live without being ripped off at every corner aswell.

I wouldn't come to England then. I'm not saying that we don't have some nice countryside in this "green and pleasant land," that is outside the concrete jungles that are rapidly spreading around the major cities.

But as for not being ripped-off, I think you may be in for a big let-down. House prices are going through the roof. I feel sorry for young people trying to start out on the property ladder -- They're looking at 50-year mortgages that their kids are likely to be paying off after they've retired. Council tax (the current equivalent of rates, or property taxes) have gone up in my area more than 15% for the last 3 years running, and are roughly 70% higher than when I moved into my present house in 1997. Oh, and this is a relatively cheap area by the way (north Norfolk). Across the border in Suffolk some areas have suffered 20%+ rates increases the last several years running.

Fuel prices are soaring again (81.9p per liter unleaded at my local station), there is talk of the London congestion charge being extended to other cities, and trying to give up and use public transport..... Well in rural areas it's just a joke.

The ever-increasing load of bureaucratic red-tape is strangling business and driving prices upward in all areas.

Quite a few British pensioners are actually retiring to Ireland now. Despite the booming house prices in the RoI, once they get there at least there is no council tax, better health benefits, better fuel allowances etc, and a more relaxed lifestyle than they can now expect in England.

I guess the grass always looks greener from the other side, no matter which side you're starting from. I suppose the one big point which makes the U.K. attractive from an Irish point-of-view is the lack of any work permits and other immigration red-tape.

By the way, I took the plunge and left Britain back in 1995 to go work in the U.S.A. I came back only for family reasons (elderly mother), and unfortunately my green card has now expired, otherwise I would be packed up and out again in a moment.

Victor

Emigration has always been there, just not in quite so big number and it was offset by re-immigration and immigration.

BKtje

I plan to move back to holland as soon as i do what i wanna do here. House prices, lack of decent jobs, better roads etc are all factors.

I do love ireland but it really is expensive.

Tommy Vercetti

Although I love travelling and all that, I can't see myself ever living in another country. Despite our shortcomings, I'm happy living here, I love this country.

Quatre Mains

I spent most of last year living in the US(I was sent over with my job), and I have to say you don't notice how bad things are here till you've been away for a while. When you go on hols for a few weeks you might notice how cheap things are etc. but when you are away in another country for an extended period you become accustomed to the place and its standards, be they good or bad.
A 2-bed apartment cost about $120k in a nice suburb, and a new Mazda Rx-8 costs about $25k - add on the fact that the US lads we worked with were on about 70k a year and you come home a very dissillusuoned person.

I spent most of last year living in the US(I was sent over with my job), and I have to say you don't notice how bad things are here till you've been away for a while. When you go on hols for a few weeks you might notice how cheap things are etc. but when you are away in another country for an extended period you become accustomed to the place and its standards, be they good or bad.
A 2-bed apartment cost about $120k in a nice suburb, and a new Mazda Rx-8 costs about $25k - add on the fact that the US lads we worked with were on about 70k a year and you come home a very dissillusuoned person.

People can point to issues like taxation in isolation and say we're not too badly off,
but as most of us are only too aware, PAYE is only one of this country's many and multiplying ways of taking your money. VAT, VRT, stamp duty,BIK, (add your own).
I won;t go down this path as we're all familiar with the argument.

In my opinion, the real problem is that we have a very low quality of life for a developed country (in Dublin at least). We live en mass in massive suburbs(essentially worker dormitories) with no facilities or amenities, often away from where we grew up because we can't afford to live there. We spent 2-3 hours commuting from all over the place in gridlock, leaving and returning home in darkness much of the year. We pay crippling mortgages. We wait for years for medical operations, and many of us can't afford to see a GP. We have to put our kids on waiting list for schools(and god help us if they have special needs).We are punished by the taxman for having a single income family. As a result we have 2-income faimilies, the 2nd of which generates less than 100 euro after paying for childcare. And this is life for the 'celtic tiger' generation, never mind the disadvantaged in our society. Its no wonder half the country are on antidepressants...

PBC_1966

Originally posted by brocklanders
when you are away in another country for an extended period you become accustomed to the place and its standards, be they good or bad.

That is so true. When I was living in Nebraska I got used to paying only about $1.10 per gallon for fuel, going out for a meal and paying only $10, dessert, drinks, and tip for waitress included, and so the list goes on. Coming back to Britain, everything seemed horrendously expensive at first.

People can point to issues like taxation in isolation and say we're not too badly off, but as most of us are only too aware, PAYE is only one of this country's many and multiplying ways of taking your money. VAT, VRT, stamp duty,BIK, (add your own).I won;t go down this path as we're all familiar with the argument.

Yep, When you've been used to something like 5% state sales tax, plus no more than 1 or 2% county rates, making about 7% at most depending upon area, coming back to VAT at 17.5% it's very difficult not to think of our government as a pack of vultures. Must seem even more so coming back to the Irish VAT (is that still 21%?).

What's BIK ?

Quatre Mains

BIK stands for Benefit In Kind. I'm no tax expert so can;t give you a proper definition.
However, it means that you pay tax (at 42% if you're on the av. industrial wage) on any benefits suppied to you by your employer. Examples of which are;

- company car
- healthcare
- gifts

so even a 'free' car will cost you. I think a Primera costs about 100 Euro in BIK a week(they base it on the list price of the car, so the nicer your car, the more u pay).
My job pays for my VHI health insurance, so I have to give a percentage of that back to the taxman.

There was talk before xmas of introducing even more measures around this area, such as;

- if you drive a van for a living, and your company lets you keep it at weekends
- if you work from home and your employer covers the phone andd internet bills
- lunch vouchers
and plenty more I can't remember. They have been pushed under the carpet till after the election.

pedro ferio-vti

Some really good points been made both for and against Emigrating, I wonder if we'll end up with some sort of a balanced argument at the end. 1 or 2 points stuck out while reading though some relevant to topic and some to myself:

Originally posted by rs
Brother moved to Tokyo two years ago, in search of work (with a debt of 50,000 dollars from Canadian Uni (about 30,000 euro)

Hi RS, just out of curiosity, how is your brother getting on in Tokyo if you don't mind me asking? This is just for my own benefit as Japan is somewhere on the country list!

Originally posted by Imposter
I left Ireland just over 2 years ago and I don't regret it for a moment. .

Where did you emigrate to Imposter?

I think at this stage the Argument is kind of being swayed towards "Pro Emigration" or in other words that the Quality of Life here isn't what it should be for innumerable reasons. A lot of what Brocklanders is saying, I haven't heard for the first time but he kind of sums up how I feel at the moment very very well. I know the US has its shortcomings but the benefits far outweigh the cons IMO which is the total opposite over here where the shortcomings outweight the benefits. I love my family and friends and all that but I'm finding it hard to justify staying here for that reason alone.

Pete