Party Policies

falteringstar

Being one who seriously believes in the power of the vote, I have decided to email each political party re: their stance on gay marriage and equality, so far the responces have been positive (so to speak) so in order to help everyone decide who they're going to vote for im going to post their replies as they come in.

My Email:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I’m 20 years old and very new to voting, in fact this will be the first time I vote, and with a view to allocating it to the party or person that represents the changes I want made, I wish to ask of you one question. What is your party’s stance on gay marriage (not civil union), and what do they plan to do in order that same sex couples in this country will finally be equal, to end homophobia in society and in the government!

With this in mind I would like to make a few points with regard to gay marriage which are of relevance:

1. This is a democratic state built on the notion that everyone is equal, “All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.” Article 40.1 Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of Ireland)

2. Equality legislation, as recent as 2003, states it is illegal to discriminate or deny any service (etc.) to a person based on sexual preference.

3. Neither the constitution, nor any part of Irish marriage law (that I can find) defines marriage as between a man and a woman. Marriage law states that you must be a man or a woman above 18 years, but these are just the qualifications, and doesn’t say marriage has to be between a man and a woman.

4. The application to give two months notice of a marriage doesn’t anywhere ask a question of gender. Instead it refers to “The first” and “second party to the proposed marriage”

5. There are a number of options open to heterosexual couples wishing to marry, they can get married in the church of their faith, or they may have a civil ceremony. A civil marriage is in every way a marriage. Granted the Catholic church may not change their mind, but the government is obliged to allow same sex couples to marry in a civil ceremony.

6. Because Civil Marriage is available to heterosexuals, the creation of a separate and distinct system (which serves only to further to discriminate and segregate) of civil union is unacceptable, in the eyes of equality.

7. With regard to religion and the church: The state can not allow any church to dictate state policy. And the government as a secular institution should not use any religious definition of marriage.

8. Gay/Bisexual people make up approx. 10% of the population. This is 10% of the population that are on a daily basis discriminated against, for no good reason. Gay people are people, they deserve to be happy no less the heterosexuals.

9. The minister of equality and law reform has said, in a letter to a colleague, that this issue raises a number of constitutional issues. This is simply untrue (or at any rate I fail to see these “constitutional issues”) The constitution says, “All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.” Article 40.1, “The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.’ Art 40.3.1. Indeed it says it recognises the family as the central unit of the state, but in modern society there are a number of different styled families, and the constitution does not attempt to define the family, it says it will protect the institution of marriage but again, doesn’t say it is between a man and a woman.

10. A bill proposed by Senator Norris, for a sort of civil union, has received wide support from parties. But this simply isn’t enough (sorry Senator!)

11.In the interest of equality, the government should allow same sex couples to marry (in a civil marriage, an institution which already exists and doesn’t require the creation of a new institution). Politicians should leave their personal opinions and religious beliefs aside on this one, they should never enter politics in the first place, and think EQUALITY. A civil union, isn’t equal, neither is nothing as it is now.

12. The issue of gay marriage, raises many more, such as proper sex education in schools, adoption, awareness; as it’s ignorance which fuels hatred and unfortunately there’s alot of that.

13. Another interesting point. Brazil have for the last couple of years tried, in the U.N., to have a resolution passed which would make sexuality a fundemental human right. But each year the votes were against them. Interestingly the countries that voted against them were extreme Catholics or Muslims, another example of politicans allowing their personal and religious beliefs interfere with their duty to treat everyone equally and to legislate equally.

I would greatly appreciate a reply, you may reply via this email (or via post: ******************************************************)

Your’s truly,
Noel Linnane.

RESPONSE FROM LABOUR:

From_:_
Siobhan Fearon <siobhan_fearon@labour.ie>

Sent_:_
Monday,_May_24,_2004_4:25_PM

To_:_
<********************************>

Subject_:_
RE: Labour Website - General Enquiry


Dear Noel

Thank you for your email.

The short answer to your main question is that the Labour Party doesn't have a
position on gay marriages, the position is in relation to the recognition for
couples, straight or gay, in non-marital relationships and supporting those.
There is a debate within the gay, and indeed the straight community, about
marriage, not everyone is convinced its the best method of recognition, a lot of
people have difficulties with the institution of marriage and our divorce laws
and thus our policy reflects that,.

In relations to the other points you raise in relation to gender in marriage,
there is something re article 41 in the role of the family that the refers to
man and women and also legislation specifies it also, I cannot remember the
exact statues but if you need me to find out I will

On a more general note, equality and the equal treatment of all the citizens of
our state is one of the founding principals of the Labour Party. We have always
worked towards bringing equality to same sex couples and ending homophobia, we
supported the decimalization of homosexuality in 1993, in the Rainbow Government
we introduced the Equality and Law Reform Department, which was subsumed into
Justice by the subsequent FF/PD government. We legislated to introduce the
Equality Authority and the laws that empower it.

We were the first political party to establish, under the auspices of the
Equality Section, an LGBT group and this group is currently working on drafting
a comprehensive policy document for the party to cover equality in all aspects
of gay life in relation to not just civil unions but adoption rights, economics,
supporting the Brazilian resolution, and many other facets of life

I hope this adequately responds to the issues you raised. The Labour Party will
continue its fight to promote equality for all, and hope that you will join and
support us in this.

Regards

Siobhán Fearon
Equality Officer
The Labour Party
17 Ely Place
Dublin 2
Tel: 00353 1 6784719
Mobile: 00353 87 6795416
Email: siobhan.fearon@labour.ie
_________________________________________
Only 15% of elected Councillors are women.
This percentage has not risen since 1991.

falteringstar

RESPONSE FROM FINE GAEL:

<slynam@oireachtas.ie>

Sent_:_
Monday,_May_24,_2004_11:12_AM

To_:_
*************************************

Subject_:_
Response from Fine Gael


Dear Noel

Thanks for your email.

Fine Gael will shortly publish a policy paper on this issue, outlining our
stance and articulating what we will do should we be elected to Government. I
will be happy to forward you a copy.

I might go through a number of the points you have raised;

1. Civil Partnership/ Gay Marriage;

Your thoughts on marriage are well articulated. However, our legal advice is
that in order to allow for "gay marriage", a change in the Constitution would be
needed. This is due to the interpretation of the Constitution by the Courts
since its promulgation. This would, of course, require a referendum- one in
which the likelihood of a Yes vote is extremely unlikely. Such a referendum
would also give those opposed to granting any rights to gay couples unlimited
access to the newspapers and airways of the country, thus inciting homophobia.

Added to this is the fact that many gay people feel the term "marriage" brings
with it social and religious baggage with which they would not be comfortable.
In our consultation with the NGLF, the Equality Authority, GLEN and others, it
was made clear that while some feel full marriage should be on offer, the best
way to proceed is to institute Civil Partnerships.

Because of the above points, Fine Gael has adopted a policy (which we will soon
publish formally) of Civil Partnerships. A Civil Partnership register would be
created where two people (of either the same sex or of opposite sex) could
formally register their partnership with the State and avail of all the rights
and responsibilities currently associated with marriage- tax, next of kin,
social welfare etc.

I appreciate that this does not meet with your approval. However, we have taken
our lead from The Equality Authority's recent report on the issue, together with
advances in the law in other EU States. Politics is the art of the possible-
allowing for "gay marriage" may not be possible at the moment. Fine Gael is in
the business of making the everyday lives of people easier so that they can
unlock their potential and share the benefits of citizenship as equally as
possible. To engage in a lengthy and ultimately futile battle for "gay marriage"
is not, we feel, the best way to proceed at this time.

You might note that our proposals in no way "segregate or discriminate" because
they are available to both homosexual and heterosexual couples.

2. Church and State

Fine Gael believes the Government should not be beholden to anyone- Business,
Trade Union, Church or Individual. Fine Gael fully supports the separation of
Church and State, has legislated for divorce and campaigned against the last
Abortion referendum.

3. Tackling Homophobia

You are quite right to say that homophobia is present in our schools. Fine Gael
believes that this is best tackled through the_ inclusion in the Social,
Personal and Health Education (SPHE) curriculum a specific module on homophobia.
Added to this, we propose the expansion of the Youth Worker programme to help at
risk children, including those who are gay or lesbian as well as improved
resources for gay and lesbian community groups.

4. The United Nations

Fine Gael believes the Irish Government has a responsibility to promote the
advancement of human rights around the world and opposes the creation of any
barriers to achieving those rights. You might note also that here at home Fine
Gael voted against changes to the Social Welfare code that discriminated against
gay people.


Full civil marriage for gay people is something which society as a whole- and
even the gay community itself- is still debating. However our Civil Partnership
proposals are radical, workable and will find support throughout the country.
Other parties may make promises in the knowledge that they will never have to
implement them. We are not afforded that luxury (nor would we want to be).

Feel free to contact me on this, or any other issue.

Stephen Lynam
Policy Officer, Fine Gael Party Leader's Office, Leinster House, Dublin 2


Sorry I know its long! But there's still more to come, Ill post the rest of the replies as soon as they come in. I'd be very interested in hearing everyone's views.

Noel

ixoy

Hey good stuff there. Haven't a chance to read it yet but it's the sort of thing that will influence my vote.

MarcusGarvey

Good idea that. I love the way some of the politicians dodge the question though.

swiss

Very interesting. I wonder if Justin Barrett has a party and if so, what his response would be. On a more relevant note, I would like to see a list of the parties that you emailed about gay rights.

The responses themselves are generally positive, some with a few caviats of course. However, I am wary of anything a political party has to say before an election, and I would look towards specific policies they have in place rather than a 'canned' response to a potential voter.

I am also interested to hear what Fianna Fáil, who have done little if anything to advance the issue, have to say.

shotamoose

Interesting stuff alright. I've got a question about the Fine Gael response, specifically this bit:

our legal advice is that in order to allow for "gay marriage", a change in the Constitution would be needed. This is due to the interpretation of the Constitution by the Courts since its promulgation.

Maybe I'm just missing the point, but isn't this a problem with the Courts' interpretation of the Constitution rather than the Constitution itself? Wouldn't the best way forward to be to take a test-case all the way through the courts and to the Supreme Court if necessary, in order to get a ruling that actually complies with the text of the Constitution and does away with all these precedents?

falteringstar

I've email Labour, Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein, PDs, and one other I dont remember!! There the only replies so far, Ive also emailed a roughly the same letter to the attorney general, no reply yet; at the moment im in exams but my friends grand father is an ex supreme court justice, he's looking in to it for us.

Maybe I'm just missing the point, but isn't this a problem with the Courts' interpretation of the Constitution rather than the Constitution itself? Wouldn't the best way forward to be to take a test-case all the way through the courts and to the Supreme Court if necessary, in order to get a ruling that actually complies with the text of the Constitution and does away with all these precedents

She obviously didn't read my email fully otherwise she would have seen that I make a point specifically about the "constitutional issues" of which there really are none, it doesn't say in the constitution that marriage is between man and woman, that bit in article 41 she mentions with reference to women is to do with the home not marriage. Furthermore if it's a matter of interpretation, Id say its pretty clear and would stand up in any court, its not (in the constitution) defined as between man and woman. Although given the ambiguity of the constitution I'd say it is open to intrepretation.

Dun

Have you done any independents? Would be interested to hear Dana's take on the subject!

Big Ears

Im gonna vote for whichever party are against same sex rights for marriage and same sex familys .

Jpaulik

And how does that contribute to this thread. Surely there's another forum that you can attention-seek on. Run along little brained man.

Mike 1972

I've email Labour, Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein, PDs, and one other

What about the Greens and Socialist Party (Joe Higgins/Clare Daly)

ixoy

Originally posted by Big Ears
Im gonna vote for whichever party are against same sex rights for marriage and same sex familys .

Why? What's the point in that? You'd base your vote solely on a party being against an issue? Do you hate the concept of gay marriage that it's your overwhelming concern when voting or are you just swinging your club at the billy goats gruff crossing your bridge? Try and at least argue your position to avoid looking like you hang out with Kermit and Miss Piggy.

falteringstar

actually i did do the greens and the socialists, but no one else has bothered to reply so!?

MarcusGarvey

Gwen Burkard email: ( gwenburkard at hotmail ) is the Equality Officer for Sinn Fein. I was going to e-mail her but what I'd write would be inferior to the letter you sent out so I think maybe you should send the e-mail.

If you don't want to then I'll do it.

falteringstar

I have sent the above email to sein fein, along with the rest.

click here

Originally posted by shotamoose
Interesting stuff alright. I've got a question about the Fine Gael response, specifically this bit:

"our legal advice is that in order to allow for "gay marriage", a change in the Constitution would be needed. This is due to the interpretation of the Constitution by the Courts since its promulgation."

Maybe I'm just missing the point, but isn't this a problem with the Courts' interpretation of the Constitution rather than the Constitution itself? Wouldn't the best way forward to be to take a test-case all the way through the courts and to the Supreme Court if necessary, in order to get a ruling that actually complies with the text of the Constitution and does away with all these precedents?

That 'change the Constitution' chestnut is a bit of a fallacy as far as I can see. Indeed, the Law Reform Commission put it quite well and to my mind clarified the position in their Consultation Paper on Rights and Duties of Cohabitees (even though this was most certainly a minimalist piece of work by the LRC):

"1.16 It seems probable that this line of [case law] authority would not
prevent the legislature increasing the rights of cohabitees to bring
them on a par with those of a married couple, as [the Constitution] only appears to prevent married couples being treated less favourably than cohabiting
couples are." (At p. 7.)

See: http://www.lawreform.ie/Cohabitees%20CP%20%20April%202004.pdf

However, the courts can and to change and develop their interpretations of the law, so (if we were all willing to wait about 50 years) even new legislation would not necessarily be needed.

LegacyUser

Hi All,

For those of you who are interested the Irish Council of Civil Liberties have initiated a Partnership Rights Campaign to develop and press for full equality for all non-married couples both straight and gay. At present they are trying to contact anyone who has been active on the issue to find out if they have written or lobbied politicians and what kind of response they got. The idea is to map the positions of political parties and various Ministers and to provide clarification of existing legislation and constitutional references on "marriage". This will then be published and distributed so that activists can take next steps on lobbying.

The ICCL also intend to hold a consultation/conference on the issue in the coming months for all who are interested. We have no set position on gay marriage because it is important to find out first what people want which would be the purpose of the consultations and responses from individuals and group. Our primary interest is to ensure that all are equal under the law and receive equal treatment as a result.

This discussion is very important and we hope that those of you who feel strongly on the issue will contact us and let us know your views. We will also be putting out a regular e-bulletin soon on the issue to keep everyone updated on developments and related activities.

The Partnership Rights Initiatives is convened by Marie Mulholland, who drafted the Equality Authority report on LGB Rights in 2002.

We can be contacted at: info@iccl.iol.ie
0r : mariakatajisto@yahoo.co.uk

Maria in the email above is the intern who is working diirectly on this issue to compile information and contacts of those interested in being kept informed of the Initiative's work.

Thanks for reading this far!

MarcusGarvey

Oh this is absolutely great news.

MarcusGarvey

Found a press release of sort here:

http://www.activelink.ie/ce/active.php?id=1720

Irish Council for Civil Liberties working group on Partnership Rights

Dear colleagues and friends,
The legal recognition of partnership rights for same-sex couples and non-married heterosexual couples is a strategic objective for the ICCL (2004-2009).

Currently in Ireland Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual (LGTB) persons are denied any legal recognition of their right to form stable, long-lasting, personal and committed relationships. Non-married heterosexual couples are also denied any kind of legal recognition.

In 1990, the ICCL published a seminal piece of work, Equality Now, which set out the case for equality for lesbians and gay men. Over the following decade, the ICCL worked with LGTB organisations and groups to campaign for the decriminalisation of homosexuality, and to campaign for equality legislation such as the Equal Status Act 2000.

The ICCL Executive recently convened a Working Group on Partnership Rights in order to achieve basic equality for same-sex and non-married heterosexual couples in Ireland. Marie Mulholland, who is an experienced campaigner/activist and formerly responsible for the sexual orientation ground with the Equality Authority, has agreed to be Convenor.

As a first step, the ICCL wishes to undertake a mapping exercise and consult with LGTB organisations active in the sector together with other organisations involved in family diversity issues.

We would like to find out what organisations or individuals have been engaged in campaigning and lobbying for partnership rights? What kinds of initiatives have been launched in this regard? What policy documents or research have been produced? What recent successes have organisations campaigning on these issues had? What barriers have they faced? What recommendations do you have for the ICCL?

The ICCL intends to use this information to gauge where support and obstacles for the campaign to secure recognition of rights exist.

We would be very grateful if you could contact us if you have been involved in any activity on these issues or if you know of an organisation or individual who might be interested in the ICCL Working Group on Partnership Rights.

Once we have built up a picture of activities to date then we will ensure that all those interested get a short report of developments and are invited to a meeting to discuss next steps.

Kind Regards,
Maria Katajisto
ICCL Policy Intern on Partnership Rights

Irish Council for Civil Liberties
Dominick Court, 40-41 Lower Dominick Street, Dublin 1.
Tel: (01) 878 3136
Fax: (01) 878 3109
E-mail: maria.katajisto@iccl.iol.ie

LegacyUser

So Noel and everyone- who did you vote for in the local and European elections?

Stark

Greens, Fíne Gael, Labour, Independants/small parties, Sinn Féin, PDs, Fianna Fáil.

Annasopra

Labour - greens - fine gael - independents

thomas/paul

have you done sinn finn because that the party i would usaully vote for?

ixoy

I voted Labour, Greens, Fine Gael. FF were very wishy-washy on their policies here (quelle surprise) and SF will never ever get a vote from me.

MarcusGarvey

Sinn Fein, Greens, Independents, Labour