Out On The Liffey to be done for "rights abuse"

ixoy

This is from the Sunday Times :

Women allege 'rights abuse' at gay pub
Christina McDonald and Dearbhail McDonald



THREE women evicted from a men-only night in a gay pub in Dublin claim their equality rights have been violated.
The women were “stunned” when management at Out on the Liffey — a popular haunt for the city’s gay and lesbian community — asked them to leave the bar because they were female.



An early house favoured by the capital’s clubbing fraternity — both gay and straight — the pub has run the men-only event on Saturday nights for four years, and insists its weekly event is not discriminatory.

“A little bit of space once a week isn’t discrimination,” said Frank Moore, owner of Out On The Liffey, which caters by day for barristers and solicitors meeting clients for lunch at the nearby Four Courts. “It is commonplace in the gay scene to have a men’s night or a women’s night. It is just a theme night one day a week, like a fancy dress or a drag show. Saturday just happens to be an all men’s themed night.

“People like to socialise in their own environment and we are creating an environment where people can be relaxed and do that.”

But the women ejected from the bar are of a different view. “I expect to be treated the same whether I’m gay or straight, male or female,” said one, who is considering filing a complaint with the Equality Authority over the incident.

The three had spent the evening drinking with a group of male friends when they were asked to leave the bar, being informed that women were barred from 9pm. Despite repeated protests, they were ordered to leave.

“Being kicked out when my male friends were allowed to stay, just because I am female, was a harassment against my gender and my sexuality,” one said. “If we had been in a straight bar and the bartenders said that all of the gay people had to leave, there would have been absolute uproar.”

Some members of the gay community say discrimination of any kind is wrong.

“Because our community is so small, anything you do to exclude people only gets people angry,” said Charlie Atkinson, a member of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Society at Trinity College, Dublin. “If we can’t go out together, we become isolated. There is no excuse for anything that excludes anyone. ”

Earlier this year the Equality tribunal ruled that ladies’ nights in discos and nightclubs that allow women in for free were discriminatory.

Last week Portmarnock golf club had its drinks licence suspended for a week because of a controversial rule excluding women as full members. A Waterford hotel was also fined and ordered to pay €1,000 to a gay man who claimed he was called a “queer” by an employee and asked to leave when he was drinking with members of his family.

“It will take further case law to determine if this policy is in fact discrimination,” said Niall Crowley, chief executive of the Equality Authority, who conceded that the men-only nights might be permissible under Ireland’s equality laws.

So what's people take on it? I can see why it might be considered unequal but it seems a bit heavy to take it up with the courts.

OfflerCrocGod

Isn't the place a total kip? - or maybe I'm getting confused with In On The Liffey. Anyway the women should shut up it's a private establishment, I hate seeing all those men only golf clubs being forced open by bitching women!. Go set up your own women only club damn it!. You abide by the rules of the pub/club, if you do not like them tough luck you go somewhere else.

Victor

Originally posted by ixoy
So what's people take on it? I can see why it might be considered unequal but it seems a bit heavy to take it up with the courts.

It's not going to court, its going to the Equality Authority.

While it might be possible to argue a case under the "separate but equal" rule (a) it's a bar (b) do the offer a regular women-only night?

tk123

yeah my friend dragged me in there one sat afternoon(he's gay i'm not) and come 9 o clock they wouldn't serve me cos i'm a girly!!! i was really glad to get out of the place though cos like OfflerCrocGod said it IS total kip!!! Having a mens/womens night is fine but I think its a bit bad to take someones money for hours and then turf them out cos they're not the right sex!!

Joe23

I don't know, it seemed a nice enough place last time I was there.

skipn_easy

What about all the clubs that offer free entrance to women before 12.30 and the like? That isn't very equal... What would happen if they charged all asians twice as much as irish people? Or gays more than straight people?

ixoy

Originally posted by skipn_easy
What about all the clubs that offer free entrance to women before 12.30 and the like? That isn't very equal...

And the Equality Authority agree with you according to the article:
Earlier this year the Equality tribunal ruled that ladies’ nights in discos and nightclubs that allow women in for free were discriminatory.
Now however that doesn't necessarily apply here does it? If I remember correctly there is provision in the acts to allow for gender-specific/race-specific nights providing there's a need for it (I don't quite know how this is to be demonstrated). Portmarnock Golf Club did - and this might be Victor's field of knoweldge - get done, not because it specifically prohibited women, but because women were allowed into the club only in a very diminished capacity and thus they were being seen as "less" than men.
If they have a strict single-gender policy, and there's no payment fee, does the act actually not cater for them?

skipn_easy

I guess if you had a race/gender specific night it would be more like a community/culture thing. Similar to having a health spa or a beauty salon which was only for women or something. I dunno, seems reasonable enough to me if there's a specific reason for it, and its not just we hate all <race>\<gender> kind of thing.

I dislike the reduced rates for women thing though and I'm pretty sure its still going on. Even though it saves me lots of money Actually I have a flyer for the red box which will get me in free before 12.30 so I know its still going on.

Yoda

Full marks to those women for going to the Equality Authority. A "Men's Night" or a "Women's Night" may exist to attract larger numbers of men or women for the conviviality such occasions engender but barring someone or turfing them out on the basis of sex is Inequality, pure and simple, and OUR COMMUNITY SHALL NOT TOLERATE OR PROMOTE INEQUALITY IN ANY WAY OR FORM.

Typedef

What about affirmative action?

Yoda

What, hiring "token homosexuals"?

Typedef

Yeah. Similar to if my understanding of Affirmative action in the States is correct, pro-discrimination in favour of blacks, women, gays or any other minority group which could be deemed to be oppressed or excluded.

The Northern Ireland agreement is a form of affirmative action, if you think about it.

ixoy

Yeah the "affirmative action" policy always irritated the hell out of me. Colleges in the states are mandated to take in x% of people based on their background. Law & Order picked this up in an episode showing how unprepeaed such people can be just to appease some concept that they're addressing minority rights issues.
In this case, I'm still not sure if it's a breach of the law (if I read the interpretations resulting from the Portmarnock Golf Club correctly). I guess though, in principle, I'm with Yoda. The LGBT community has already dealt with far too much exclusionism to suddenly turn around and deal it in turn. If anything you'd expect it to be more accepting but this doesn't seem the case. Be interesting to see if the case progresses and, given that the place itself is best summed up as a "kip", I wouldn't shed any tears for it.

Yoda

OotL is likely to be fined, and told that they can't throw women out on Men's Night (or vice-versa).

Victor

Originally posted by ixoy
In this case, I'm still not sure if it's a breach of the law (if I read the interpretations resulting from the Portmarnock Golf Club correctly).

Assuming Out On The Liffey is a public house, it is open to every member of the (sober, non-abusive, over-18) public. Portmarnock Golf Club is a club, different rules, but again they discriminated in an illegal way.

Originally posted by ixoy
Now however that doesn't necessarily apply here does it? If I remember correctly there is provision in the acts to allow for gender-specific/race-specific nights providing there's a need for it (I don't quite know how this is to be demonstrated).

I wasn't sure what you are commenting on here, but as best I know that provision is for private organisations to exist for certain groups where the group identity is intrinsic with membership - however the organisation needs to justify any discrimination in its rules. For example there is a South African Social Club in Dublin that requires you to know the South African national anthem. Now someone could say that discriminates against them on political grounds, but given the objective of the club is South African (and social), it would be considered a reasonable ground. Similarly a testicular cancer support group could insist on a male-only membership to protect the sensitivities of it's members (the same wouldn't apply to breast cancer as 5% of breast cancer cases are men).

The fundamental difference however would be that Out On The Liffey exists as a commercial bar and is not a private organisation. Now commercial organisation can provide separate but equal services. This case is near universal in toilets, but a more salient point would be where swimming pools provide women only sessions (on personal image and religious grounds). Someone could argue for a men only session and it is doubtful the pool could sustain an argument against it.

Originally posted by ixoy
and this might be Victor's field of knoweldge

More interest than knowledge.

Originally posted by ixoy
Portmarnock Golf Club did ...... get done, not because it specifically prohibited women, but because women were allowed into the club only in a very diminished capacity and thus they were being seen as "less" than men.

I don't know the exact details, but women had most, but not all, of the rights of men. However while a private club can discriminate, you can't have a bar licence (in this country an alcohol licence amount to state endowment) and discriminate.

Originally posted by ixoy
If they have a strict single-gender policy, and there's no payment fee, does the act actually not cater for them?

Irrelevant, public bar.

If by "payment fee" you mean admission fee - that might work the other way around. One distinguishing feature of privacy and a club is payment of an admission fee. If they had charged an admission fee they might have been able to argue the event was private, etc. However, I imagine this again fails on the public bar point.

Clubs are allowed rules like dress codes. Maybe if they insisted on dressing camp that might have worked, but its clutching at straws.