Advise Please

mousemat

Alright, first off I am a very regular user of these boards but for reason that I do not want to be ID'd then I have logged off and have come on as another user. (MODS you can PM me and I will give you my usual name if you wish)

I am in a very frustrating situation at work. I work for a smallish company in the West, our Dept has only 6 people and I am working on a project that I will be working on for the next 10 months or more with one lad, a foreigner.

Now due to skillsets I am the only one that can work on this project and this is also the reason I cannot move onto other projects.
Both of us have roughly the same experience, he has been in the company over 4 years, I am here 8 months. The issue is that this lad was the designer of the system and has been working on it for the last 18 months. He is a real company head, his whole life works around work, he brings it home and works on it there.
Now the way that I have worked is that there can be more than one way to do things, in most cases we have our own way of doing things. They both have worked successfully. The issue with this lad is that "
I have designed this system even though yours may work I want it done this way", so in other words when I go home I will take your code apart and spend the morning telling you how "Wrong" this is and that "i do not like this", all the way from variable names, to control names, to directory name etc.

I am not a bad coder, worked as one for the last 8 years, developed and have successfully marketed and sold a system. No one has ever complained (to my face!) about my work, except this guy.
He is driving me to demention. I have approached my boss and he is a bit of a "oh I do not care, you deal with it" attitude.

The constant nitt picking has taking all my interest out of working in the area, so much that it is affecting my health, everyone is saying to me, "what the hell is up with you".

Now the biggest issue is that :
1. the part of the country i work in has none and I mean no other companies where my skills/exp can be used.

2. I am getting married and also in the process of applying for a mortgage (so I neeed the job) and therefore I have to have money coming in.

I am at a wall, mentally and physically, I cannot see much light around this one at all, I am usually a very strong person mentally but this is slowly chiselling away at me.

I would appreciate any similar experiences or advise

thanks very much

seamus

This just seems to be a clash of personalities more than anything else.
Is this other guy your boss, or just a guy who's been there longer?
If he's not your boss, the best suggestion I can come up with is to come up with a standard, i.e. Set out exactly how variable names should be, what directory names should be like, things like that. Once you agree on the semantics, then anything else is fluff. Grab him, and your boss, and make sure you're all clear about the standards and what's required.
He's basically trying to tell you how to do your job. At the end of the day, I would say ignore him, but since you have to collaborate on a project, there should at the very least be a professional relationship.

The problem is his, not yours. You shouldn't let it interfere with your life outside work. If something was annoying me that much, I'd be happier to tell him to f*ck off, and put up with a year of non-communication than a year of criticism.

mousemat

Thanks Seamus

To answer:
No he is not my boss, but acts as if he is, "are you finished that yet" bla bla, I am tbh too polite to tell him to fk off and I will be finished when I am

I know I should not let this effect my outside work, it never has, but this is. I cannot even ask him a question without him making me feel like a moron. I have agreed to all his "standards" but even these are changing. Take an example

Developing add-on modules for the system.
I create a directory called AddOns one branch off the main directory. I store the dll's in here.
fk me he does not like it, no it should be called AddOnUtils....... figure that!! I mean I should not even let it bother me but fk sake this is nitt pickin and it gives him a chance to get at me again.

I don't know, I have to agree I should just do everything he asks BUT I have my own brain, I have worked long enough to make and put into action my own ideas and decisions, this guy is not allowing me to do this, his way or no other

seamus

Basically, he just sounds like a bully. You can either stand up to him (something like that directory example - laugh at him, and tell him to cop on), or complain to your boss. He has to listen.

You may need a firmer backbone is all, my friend.

Johnny Versace

I agree with Seamus.

Leaving your job is not an option to you. Just have a serious talk with this guy.

Tell him exactly what yuo've told us.

More than likely he'll be shocked and won't have realised he is causing you such terrible stress. If, on the other hand, he doesn't give a ****, have a proper talk with your manager. If he doesn't act on it, take it to his manager.

Don't leave your job.

secret_squirrel

Just playing devils advocate here but Im assuming that most of the source code was written by him.? Im sure most developers here have had to work with source code with more than one author and several different standards - we all know what a nightmare that can be! Maybe he's just a bit overprotective?

Also its possible that you may need to comprise your standards in order to get some productive work done with him.

Next time he changes his standards randomly pick out an old bit of his code that doesnt conform.

Deffers get a standards doc sorted. Get your wimpy boss to sign it off.

Then again he could just be one of those random anal fúckers (you know what I mean )we've all worked with them to. Try agreeing and do it your way anyhow.

Peace

I worked with a guy who was romanian a while back... and at the start i found him to be abrupt and rude. He also had a habit of critisising my code also.... however i was a bit of a noob at the time.

It got to the stage where i just stood up to him and soon after a good working relationship developed - i think he understood that i wasn't going to be pushed around.

Dealing with this guy in your job mousemat - if you let him walk all over you then guess what he's going to do all over again tommorow. Strap on a set and let him know that you've also got experience and that this isn't "his" project.... you are both working on it. If you get fired then so be it... it happens.

The worst solution would be that continue as you are going and it slowly chips away at you until you break... as you said, its affecting your personal life also. Time to make a change.

minority

i've been there a few times. took a couple of co,mpletely different approaches.

If you have team meetings with superiors mention forcefully that you're spending too much time on this guys bull****ting to get any work done. When he makes a suggestion counter it forcefully in front of the boss if you dont agree.

The other thing that worked for me was everytime the guy asks you a question snap at him whit a big loud "WHAT DO YOU WANT NOW?" Always make him sorry that he called you. Make him feel you're ready to bite his head off.
Keep doing it and he wont annoy you anymore.

Hobbes

Make him feel you're ready to bite his head off.
Keep doing it and he wont annoy you anymore. [/B]

That is counter-productive in the long run.

If he is complaining about your syntax then agree to a coding convention.

If he is complaining about a coding convention then the guy is an idiot. The objective is to create workable code but also code that can be maintained at a later stage by others (your boss will agree with this).

If he is just nitpicking about your general work, then I would speak to your boss. Explain parts that work fine and why you are doing it that way. If he doesn't like that then he has to document it in more detail exactly what it is he wants. Also explain you are not a clone and have your own ideas to improve things.

"a foreigner" - It would help if you knew what kind. Various cultures have different methods of dealing with each other and it may just be your general attitude that is prolonging it instead of making him change his mind.

eth0_

Originally posted by Hobbes

"a foreigner" - It would help if you knew what kind. Various cultures have different methods of dealing with each other and it may just be your general attitude that is prolonging it instead of making him change his mind.

I don't think the guy was trying to be xenophobic, rather he's trying to be as vague as possible about who he works with/for because he doesn't want to stir sh1t if they happen to read this thread.

mousemat

I don't think the guy was trying to be xenophobic, rather he's trying to be as vague as possible about who he works with/for because he doesn't want to stir sh1t if they happen to read this thread.

In one, I would prefer not to mention too much.

I can see a common thread here from you all I will have to take a firmer stand. The guy designed the system and had about 15% of the system coded when I arrived.
To be honest it is so fkn long winded that it is a pile of sh**e BUT issue is the boss has no experience in the skillset and at the end of the day this guy is here on a contract for the last 4 years, probably on twice the sponds I am on so they would hate to think they are paying this guy for a crap system!

"WHAT DO YOU WANT NOW?"

I have tried this unfortunately on a more regular trend but like talking to the wall!!


Leaving is not an option, too much more outside of work relies on my money from here. I just have to deal with it with a stronger hand!!

Hobbes

I don't think the guy was trying to be xenophobic,

I didn't mean it that way.

Different cultures have different ways in dealing with confrontations, and without realising it, it is possible that he could be prolonging it.

Some examples people might know is that Asians (Koreans/Chinese/Japanese) do not like to say no. Or Koreans for example a deadline mean try their best to keep to that date. It may not be relevant to him but it is the general drift I was getting at.

Anyway another way to look at the problem is determine what powerbase the guy has over you.

From what you described he appears to have a "Technical" Powerbase. In that because he can confuse his boss he has a powerbase from which to dictate terms.

He probably holds this over you only based on his time there, unless he has better education or experience then yourself.

However to break a technical powerbase you have to show the person wrong on one occasion. Once there is even a certain level of doubt on one instance then remove that powerbase.

Also if you are going to give out to the boss about him, do not say anything negative. Explain like "I have seen in detail how he is doing it, however my way is coded better and will decrease time/whatever. I can keep doing it the way he is telling me or I can do what you hired me to do, use my brain to improve your systems.".

RicardoSmith

Oh this is sooo familar to me. I have had this quite a few times over the years. Once or twice with male colleagues but many times with female colleagues etc. I'm sure that there is some insecurities that are behind this in people but overall I think that its power tripping and control feaks that do this. Also they tend to be anal retentive aswell. Obsessing over very little detail, reagardless of its importance. They also to tend to insist on changes and modifications for change sake. Generally the intention is diminish your confidence and authority and dominate over you. They also try to diminish your standing in the eyes of everyone around, so its as much as PR battle as anything else.

In the past I've fought this in a number of ways. But theres a few ground rules.

Never bad mouth the other person. Never for ever reason. The company has had the person for a few years and so are obviously happy with them. If you critise them you critise the management. They tend to be sensitive about that.

Document everything. Work you've been asked to do, changes you've been asked to make, the time it took, if the functionality was improved, stayed the same or disimproved and the reasons why. You can be called into a meeting at anytime and this document is your lifeline.

If you can pull statistics that prove your points then do so. Number of bugs reported in your code vs his code, number of rewrites, how long it takes. The number of different types of changes. Restructured code, redesigned form, etc.

Produce regular reports, once a week with a status report of everything thats been done, is outstanding and things that are planned. This is so you can say that 100% of work that you've been asked to do is done.

Basically what you want toavoid any negatives that can be said about you. Be the report king and guy who gets things done. The problem with this is that you can get bogged down with all the crap non essential stuff that the other guy will try to get you to do. Theres a number of ways if countering this. As him for a priority level of everything he asks you to do. Then only do the high priority stuff. Anything you can reassign to the other guy do it. Especially all the boring and mundane stuff. Try to do all the wow functionality and exciting stuff that will impress the boss.

Finally if something is working and is written correctly and he wants a change, that is non essential, lke the naming of a file or a directory. Put it on the long finger.

At the end of the day your at a disadvantage is he has an established position and you don't. He doesn't need to prove anything and you do. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you get the work done but that everyone has the peception that you are the best thing since sliced bread. Basically that means playing the PR game, wining as many brownie points however you can.

Tom Dunne

Originally posted by Hobbes
Different cultures have different ways in dealing with confrontations, and without realising it, it is possible that he could be prolonging it.

I agree with Hobbes, for many reasons.

I am working in a small team that consists of an Egyptian, and Isreali, Indians, a Tiawanese national, some Americans and finally some Irish. I have learned a hell of a lot about the way the different cultures handle confrontation.

Firstly, them team gets on fairly well. But when there is a problem, voices are raised and points are made with sheer ruthlessness. But the most important thing is that there are no egos at stake, there are no personal feelings at stake, in essence, there is no offence taken.

For example, the other day, I was working on a problem and my boss suddenly appears and starts "working" on it. I basically let fly at him and told him that only one of us should work on it. I was fairly pissed off at that time and I didn't need him messing things up. But I let him know right away, quite firmly and in front of several senior people. He did not take offence, he knew I was working on it and we were best of buddies the next day.

The point I am making is that you need to be plesantly firm, polite and professional. Do not stoop to any kind of personal attack, focus on the issue, not the person. I feel I actually got more respect by letting my boss know where he stood. Don't let things linger and fester, they will only get worse. Don't mull over it, but stay in control, don't lose the head.

I must admit, I found it hard at first, but once you see that other cultures accept, even expect, brutal honesty, it will make your worklife a lot easier.

RicardoSmith

I could be wrong but I doubt very much that this is a cultural issue.

KdjaCL

You need to argue with this guy whether it be over whose pen is best, if he thinks he is the be all and end all. No point in you working there its him doing all the work and you getting the crap and getting stressed.

A good old fashioned clear the air argument will do the trick. Btw when you do argue make sure you gonna win.

kdjac

Tom Dunne

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I could be wrong but I doubt very much that this is a cultural issue.

I think it partly may be. I found when I started working with all these nationalities, I was getting upset at their direct approach and soon realised that it was nothing personal, they were just trying to get their job done.

As soon as I started being as direct as they were, I found it much easier to do my job and got things done more quickly and, most importantly, I gained their respect.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by tom dunne
I think it partly may be. I found when I started working with all these nationalities, I was getting upset at their direct approach and soon realised that it was nothing personal, they were just trying to get their job done.

As soon as I started being as direct as they were, I found it much easier to do my job and got things done more quickly and, most importantly, I gained their respect.

Someone being direct is one thing. But asking to rename things and nitt picking for no good reason is not a cultural problem. Either theres a valid reason for changing something or there isn't.

I remember once I had one project leader who use to constantly reword the text in my code, labels, dialogs, log files etc. Names of the applications etc. So it got to the point where she had to approve every line of text that appeared. So what I did was give her a list of parts/objects that need a text and got her to write it before I started. Of course she didn't want that, she just wanted to edit my stuff. But I refused to put any text in unless she wrote it first. That was too much work for her so she stopped doing it.

I had another guy that after every time I'd finished working on my part of a project, he'd then change his previously finished part of the project which then required me to change my code again and again. These changes were really only alternatives ways of doing things rather than improvements to the project. This meant that in effect I could never finish off my work. So in the end I refused to make any changes to any of my code once finished that his code changes had caused. If he made changes, then he had to change all the code not just his. Of course, he didn't have time for that, and quickly lost interest in making changes once he realised he was creating more work for himself.

Thats what mousemat is talking about.

Hobbes

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Someone being direct is one thing. But asking to rename things and nitt picking for no good reason is not a cultural problem. Either theres a valid reason for changing something or there isn't.

Could be for a valid reason for the renaming. Refactoring happens a lot in code. You don't explain in what way he asked you to rename. You also don't explain why you didn't agree to a coding guidelines and stick to it.

Or are you talking about text being changed? Not code.

These changes were really only alternatives ways of doing things rather than improvements to the project. This meant that in effect I could never finish off my work.

Again we don't know why he was making the changes. In large scale development groups coding guidelines are generally followed to the letter so as to make maintanace easier.

Something as simple as this could happen...

// from
    if (empactive == true) { 
        emppay = true;
    } else emppay = false;

// to... 
    if (bEmployeeActive == true) { 
        bPayEmployee = true;
    }
    else { 
        bPayEmployee = false;
    }

The second one looks long winded but is easier for software maintaince.

RicardoSmith

My experience it happens most on small team projects. Because as you say on a larger development project there will be standards and coding guidlines & conventions put in place before the project starts. As others have suggested putting these kind standards in place now would clear up any ambiguity that currently exists.

Of course in mousemats case theres just two of them. But its still best practise to put some rules in place.

I was talking about petty changes like, you use seperators in a log file say ~~~~~ and the project lead asks you to change them to ..... then ¬¬¬¬¬ then

---

then back to ~~~~. Especially when the log file is only for the debug purposes for the developer. Another example would be changing the project and exe name constantly, or rephrasing text on forms when the change makes no improvement.

Thats not refractoring.

Theres worse examples too. In one of the last places I worked, the MD would constantly switch priorities on an hourly basis never mind a daily one. During the course of a day you might jump between with 10-20 different tasks, problems as the MD flip-flapped from one problem to another. The result of which was that very little got finished. You tell him that a task would take a few days to resolve and he just would insist it got fixed that day, pulling people off projects left right and center just to work on his new priority. That was him stamping his authority. But in an hour or so he'd retask everyone again. They had an outside consultant look at the business processes and why everything was taking so long and they were so many problems. One of the key problems he highlighted was this constant jumping between priorities and retasking everyone. But of course he ignored that and instead put in place a system of penalties for the developers.

Thats micro management and bullying all rolled into one.

RicardoSmith

I should add that your stress levels go through the roof when you encounter these sistuations. Most people just want to go to work. Do their work and get on with their life.

Most of the people I see who do this micro management or nit picking do not have much of a life outside of work. Either they are away from home, have no friends in the local area, be single, or if married never spend anytime at home. They tend to work very long hours and most weekends, usually unpaid. Working regularly unpaid is the first problem sign I find. They generally harp on about how much work they do and how many long hours they do, thinking it gains them respect. However managment love someone working for free and will pile on the work, and all their colleagues will just think they are sad gits and resent the extra pressure it puts on them.

They also look at every problem and say that should only take 2 mins. But then take 10 mins explaining how you should do it in 2 mins.

casper-

Originally posted by Hobbes
Something as simple as this could happen...

// from
    if (empactive == true) { 
        emppay = true;
    } else emppay = false;

// to... 
    if (bEmployeeActive == true) { 
        bPayEmployee == true;
    }
    else { 
        bPayEmployee == false;
    }

True .. but they're both wrong .. the one and only way to write it is

// One true brace style

   if (bEmployeeActive == true) 
   { 
        bPayEmployee == true;
   }
   else 
   { 
        bPayEmployee == false;
   }

;);)

To get back to the point, though, there is no way around standing firm by talking with them in a serious manner, and when all else fails, attempting to talk to your boss. I agree that culture/customs may have something to do with it, but having gone through this in coding jobs with people of _all_ cultures, I think you have no choice but stick up for yourself.

Good luck with this .. I know it's a difficult position especially with the mortgage but your mental health and happiness are far too important to let this issue keep worrying you.

Hobbes

Originally posted by RicardoSmith

I was talking about petty changes like, you use seperators in a log file say ~~~~~ and the project lead asks you to change them to ..... then ¬¬¬¬¬ then

---

then back to ~~~~. Especially when the log file is only for the debug purposes for the developer. Another example would be changing the project and exe name constantly, or rephrasing text on forms when the change makes no improvement.

Thats not refractoring.

The first one is petty.. the second isn't and is refactoring. It is quite normal to have a project name/files and text to change often during a project.

Normally a good way to deal with this is to create milestone freezes for each area. String Freeze (for translators), UI Freeze (To stop UI writers pissing you off), UA (user assistance) freeze, Code Freeze.

This forces them to stop making changes when you know it will have a major effect on the project.

True .. but they're both wrong .. the one and only way to write it is

there is no "True Brace Style" except what conforms to coding guidelines for the project. The brace format I showed you is one I have to adhere to at the moment but there are others.

If you load up Eclipse and go to code formatter you will see this. The reason is to stop differences in source control system which are trivial.

* hee hee the equals is wrong, turned to an equates. *doh*

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Hobbes
The first one is petty.. the second isn't and is refactoring. It is quite normal to have a project name/files and text to change often during a project.

I could understand if theres a reason for the change. But if there isn't a valid reason then its just petty. It also creates unnesessary problems and a lot of extra unnesessary work if effects a lot of other code, and other applications, installers etc. OK you might do it once or twice but when its the 4th or 5th time someones taking the mickey.

Originally posted by Hobbes
Normally a good way to deal with this is to create milestone freezes for each area. String Freeze (for translators), UI Freeze (To stop UI writers pissing you off), UA (user assistance) freeze, Code Freeze.

This forces them to stop making changes when you know it will have a major effect on the project.
[/B]

Agreed. I think its especially important on a small team too where theres only a few of you working together.

casper-

Originally posted by Hobbes

there is no "True Brace Style" except what conforms to coding guidelines for the project. The brace format I showed you is one I have to adhere to at the moment but there are others.

I _was_ joking you know right?

Hobbes

Originally posted by casper-
I _was_ joking you know right?

Shouldn't that be I {was} joking.... ?

casper-

Originally posted by Hobbes
Shouldn't that be I {was} joking.... ?

Ooooh

/me slaps hobbes around with a large trout.

Oh, back to the subject at hand -- yes, freezes (and slushes) are very good for groups both large and small.

mousemat

All, have taken all on board and have decided heed your experiences and advise.

Will be taking this guy aside and having a word. He possibly does not know what he is doing and his nationality, with past experience, is to be very abrupt.
His lack of English also inflames the situation and choice of words dont help!

But sin é , I will keep at it for another while, some days are better than others so time will tell.

Many thanks again for ye ears and help.

All the best


(Now I can logout and go back and login as my original nick!! No harm! )