Union calls for tax-increases

arcadegame2004

IMPACT, the public-sector trade-union has called for taxes to be raised to pay for what they call "better public-services". Do you agree?

I disagree. The semi-states (except Iarnroid Eireann and the railways themselves) should usually be privatised. Freed from the Oliver-Twist mentality (please sir, can I have some more) towards asking for more and more state subsidies to bail it out of trouble, the privatised company would have to learn that the only way to make a profit from then onwards is to reduce prices and improve quality of service to attract more customers. State-owned companies tend to be monopolies e.g. ESB and therefore they stifle the democratic right to choose who gives us our services.

What do you think?

Trebor

i would agree with the tax increase. if they privatised all the state companies then all they would care about would be profit and not what is in the best interest of society.
take buses for an example, if there was no state company then buses would only go on the routes that are most profitable. meaning more people would drive thus defeating the point of buses.
the same for ESB, could you imagine a private company going into the arse of no where to supply electricity to a few people in a village if it cost more than they would get back? I would like to see them have more wind/wave plants aswell.

This government relies too much on indirect taxes so it never knows how much it will have next year to spend which makes planning for projects difficult.

i am all for increasing the higher tax rate as long as they increases the threshold of when you cross into it in line with inflation.

BuffyBot

I disagree. The semi-states (except Iarnroid Eireann and the railways themselves) should usually be privatised.

Privatisation isn't the magic cure-all some people tout it to be. Indeed, most of the time it just changes the nature of the problems.

cdebru

hmmm
well if you privatise all the semi states whynot the rail what is your logic
and why stop there
what about the hospitals
should they be privatised
how about the schools
why dont we run them for profit huh give the teachers a taste of the private sector
i mean if they can cut their costs provide a better service dont be relying on the taxpayer
why should taxpayers who dont even have children have to pay for schools
what a bout the gardai
lets privatise them
cut their costs provide a better service
i mean it should be very simple
unless of course you believe in public service
that people have a right to
health
security
education
public transport
electricity
water
whether they live in blackrock or coolock
the back end of kerry
or the centre of a city
indirect tax is unfair by its nature
it does not take ability to pay in to account by and large
which means the less well off
pay the same amount of tax as the high earners
you cant choose not to bring your child to a&E
or not to pay the extra on the drug payment scheme
what about that democatic right to choice

secret_squirrel

Typical bloody union, getting to big for its boots and arguing for something that only very tenuously connected to the welfare of their members. And I was almost made to join those feckers.

Im quite a fan of semi-states i think they are a good compromise between a full- state company and a privatised monopoly. They could do with an injection of how the 'real' business world works tho.

Moriarty

It depends on whether people would be happy to pay it. I don't think most irish people want high tax, they prefer underfunded public services along with the right to moan about same until the cows come home.

I have vague memorys of listening to some economics people saying that low-tax economys are more agile and responsive countrys when it comes to the overall health of the economy, whereas high-tax economys apparently tend to be rather sluggish. That seems to agree with the state of the different european economys and their respective tax regiemes, but I'm rather weak on economics so I may be talking complete arse.

I'd take the view of prefering a high-tax society that provides good public services and a good quality of life. A rate of 70-80% wouldn't bother me if I knew that all that money was going to be spent well, without being squandered. Then again, thats a rather idealistic dream here in Ireland.

mike65

Impact are wrong and wont get thier way so its a non-issue really!

Old enough to remembeer when 35% was standard rate and the country was in doldrums...

Mike.

cdebru

the arguement is that we need better health service
i think we all agree on that
we need better schools
i think we all agree on that
we need better public transport
i think we all agree on that
and more gardai
and on andon
but you cant have all that if you cant pay for it
and you cant pay for it with really low tax rates
the squandering of public money is an issue
i would not trust ff/pd
with more taxpayers money
just look at the long list of waste we already have
luas for example
pet projects
but thats more about how government works
a department is allocated x ammount of money
if they dont spend it all they get less next year
so they make sure they spend it
even if they dont need it
money is wasted all over the place
if we get that sorted
stop ministers building crap we dont need in their own back yard
and spend the money that is collected now wisely
then we can raise taxes for what is really needed
not more equestrian centres
or whatever

secret_squirrel

Some good points made there...shame your iambic pentameter was a bit off ;D

Nuttzz

Originally posted by mike65


Old enough to remembeer when 35% was standard rate and the country was in doldrums...

doldrums??? You had 2 choices, leave or join a dole queue, high taxes are a load of pants you could chuck €15bn a year at the health sector and still get no better services, we need from and wiser spending look at the port tunnel and luas cost over runs, nothing to do with tax rates

Manach

I would be against higher taxes. I believe the rates we have at present + the indirect taxes should give the Gov. enough leeway to meet realistic expectations and nudge them into making effecencies.

I do not favour wholescale privatisation, just allowing the private sector to step in and offer choices if needed; in areas such as power, buses and schools.

Gurgle

How about a tax rate of 55% or so for earnings over 70k ?
The people to pay it can afford to.

pork99

I'm cynical about trade unions. I think you can translate "better public-services" as "more money for us in the union to take home and dispose of as we see fit".

However I think people may not resent reasonable tax increases if they can see direct benefits in terms of investment in education, health services, communications infrastructure and road/rail infrastructure. Maybe this could be done in the form of levies? If you had things like a road levy, an education levy people might feel that they're funding something useful instead of throwing money into a bureaucratic black hole - could even cut income tax a bit to compensate. Paying tax needs to be sold to people as an investment from which they personally will benefit instead of money extorted from you to fund an easy life for civil servants.

The problem is that when the state spends you tend not to get the best value for money. It's the old story of if I spend my own money on myself I'll make sure I get value for it. If I spend someone elses money on someone else (what the state mostly does) I will tend to have less concern for the returns on that investment.

Cork

I think impact needs to address serious inefficencys in our public services?

Do we really need town councils, town commissions etc?

Why cannot you renew your driving licence at your post office.

Taxpayers should not be lumbered with higher taxes for the benefit of inefficent public sevices.

mike65

On the 1 O'Clock news (RTE) it was suggested that if income tax went up the unions would quickly want a pay hike to cover it! Needless to say the IMPACT guy squirmed and deflected the question.

Mike.

Cork

This is the futility of their arguement - they want the government to increase tax so that government can spend more on public services. But have not taxpayers paid enough already paying public servants benchmarking?

I think , Governments should continue to reduce personal taxation. People on mimimum wage should not be in the tax net. Personal allowances should be inflation indexed.

Overall - People who advocate tax and spend policies forget that high tax rates act as a disincentive to work.

People who work in many public services have jobs for life - many workers in the private sector are as lucky.

minority

I wouldnt mind an increase if they removed all of those stupid stealth taxes that i'm paying now.

arcadegame2004

The inefficiency of semi-states means that they will usually ask for more money. They lack the profit motive, so they often feel "Hey what the hell. lets spent the money wasteful sure Charlie will be back with more next year". In the private-sector they would have to spend money more wisely because there would be no Charlie to bail them out. And thus cost-reduction would mean lower prices. So i say no to IMPACTs demands for more money to be thrown at the public-sector. Look how the doubling in health-service was wasted. Clearly simply throwing money at the problems in the public-sector is not on. And regarding the claims by the unions that some semi-states are profitable, I reply that a monopoly will tend to be, and that is no credit to it.

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
And regarding the claims by the unions that some semi-states are profitable, I reply that a monopoly will tend to be, and that is no credit to it.

Last time I checked aer lingus was a profitable semi-state that is in no way a monopoly

Cork

Aer Lingus used its virtual monopoly for years to rip the Irish public off with high air fares.

Air Fares which paid for the inefficencys of Aer Lingus.

Victor

Well, I'd like the Artists Exemption to be radically overhauled (note Bertie's daughter is beniftting from this to the tune of €1m). Fair enough give struggling talent a break, but tax free for Bono? Tax increase.

And I'd get rid of the tax exempt status for stud fees. Tax increase.

And I would charge Capital Gains Tax on principal private residences over, say, €500,000 (with reform of stamp duty). Tax increase.

I would consider offering pension tax credits at the lower rate and not subsidise the pensions of the Bar Council (one poor unfortunate had to syphon €35,000 off into his tax free pension). Tax increase.

I would get rid of as many of the tax breaks offered to property developers as possible. They hardly need subsidisation in a bouyant market. Tax increase.

I would tax capital gains the same as income tax. Why should a wheeler-dealer pay 20% whena worker pay 42%? Tax increase.

Together these might allow us to improve services and cut income tax / increase tax credits. Tax neutral.

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
IMPACT, the public-sector trade-union has called for taxes to be raised to pay for what they call "better public-services". Do you agree?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I disagree. The semi-states (except Iarnroid Eireann and the railways themselves) should usually be privatised. Freed from the Oliver-Twist mentality (please sir, can I have some more) towards asking for more and more state subsidies to bail it out of trouble, the privatised company would have to learn that the only way to make a profit from then onwards is to reduce prices and improve quality of service to attract more customers. State-owned companies tend to be monopolies e.g. ESB and therefore they stifle the democratic right to choose who gives us our services.

I'm just wondering how these two quotes relate to each other. I understand that unreasoned arguments are against the charter of theis board.

Originally posted by Cork
Do we really need town councils, town commissions etc?

Town commissions and UDCs became town councils under the Local Government Act 2001. While they do need further reform (e.g. becoming area councils not town councils), I don't think they should be abolished.

Originally posted by Cork
Why cannot you renew your driving licence at your post office.

What more subsidising of a semi-state? Well you can do it online, as best I know.