Should Croke Park be open for the "Foreign Game"

d4

I just want to know people thoughts on this, i think it should be open to all sports because i cant see how the gaa will be able to afford the ground maintenance each year considering they only fill it about 5 times a year.

Waylander

I do not think it should be used for rugby, it would just rip up the pitch I think. As for soccer, i have no problem with that being played there. I am not a strong republican, but I would have a problem with an English or British flag flying in that particular stadium for obvious reasons. Any other Gaelic grounds I would have no problem at all.

Imposter

Do we have to discuss this every few weeks?
Linkee 1
Linkee 2
Linkee 3
The first link was also a sticky until very recently here.

And where's the 'Maybe' option in the poll?

cruiserweight

I think that the GAA should open the grounds but only when they are ready! Pressure from outside sources should not be an influence, and in fact probably turns GAA people against the idea, because nobody wants to be dictated to be another federation or group!

What "foreign game" are you refering to?

Kelter

Gaa sports are largely amature. As a youngster the big target is not to be on 50k a week like the premiership stars, it's to run out on Croke park, just once. I'm from Clare and the first time I played in Cusack park was a very big deal to me. I think that allowing soccer or Rugby players to walk onto these grounds without having ever done the work that is currently required to play there, would devalue the whole thing.

Mighty_Mouse

because i cant see how the gaa will be able to afford the ground maintenance each year

Your concern for GAA finances is heart-warning. So you'll be happy to know that at this stage the GAA does not need to open Croke Park for financial reasons;)

Waylander

think that allowing soccer or Rugby players to walk onto these grounds without having ever done the work that is currently required to play there, would devalue the whole thing.

Do you not think you are kind of cheapening the achievement of wearing your country's Rugby jersay. They are not going to be playing Leinster senior cup games there. The only games they could play there are European semi's & final for provincial teams or International games. I think any player at that stage will have earned the right, and I do not think it would devalue the dreams of the young at all.

Mighty_Mouse

Do you not think you are kind of cheapening the achievement of wearing your country's Rugby jersay.

Whats croke park got to do with a rugby players jersey?

I think any player at that stage will have earned the right

earned the right to what. Walk into another sports ground. Do rugby players really grow dreaming of playing in Croker!! wow another perspective on the whole afair

Trojan

haha, the comments from the GAA bigots really are amusing! Thanks guys

Trojan

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Do rugby players really grow dreaming of playing in Croker!!

It's been a dream of mine ever since I ate my first prawn sandwich!

Here's our perspective.

Be careful GAA folks, that's on the rugby board, you might catch English or something else foreign if you read that thread!

cruiserweight

Originally posted by Trojan
haha, the comments from the GAA bigots really are amusing! Thanks guys

Just out of interest what bigoted comments did you read, (with the exception maybe of one comment about flag)!

There are a minority who would like to keep Croke Park closed for "bigoted" reasons but to tar everybody with the one brush is wrong!

Sleipnir

Originally posted by cruiserweight
I think that the GAA should open the grounds but only when they are ready! Pressure from outside sources should not be an influence, and in fact probably turns GAA people against the idea, because nobody wants to be dictated to be another federation or group!

What "foreign game" are you refering to?

Like pressure from the people who actually paid for it to be built i.e. the people of Ireland? The People own it, not the GAA management.

Waylander

Mighty mouse I suggest you read the entire thread and then you might understand what I was refering to, or if you still can not follow it pm me and Ill try and talk you through it slowly. As regards my comment on the flag I do not consider it bigotry, I consider a mark of respect to the victims of a tragic event. As I said, I have no problem with any other ground flying whatever flag they want.

Trojan

Originally posted by cruiserweight
Just out of interest what bigoted comments did you read, (with the exception maybe of one comment about flag)!

There are a minority who would like to keep Croke Park closed for "bigoted" reasons but to tar everybody with the one brush is wrong!

cruiserweight: I'm very aware that it's only a minority of GAA supporters and officials. Unfortunately a very powerful minority.

Yes, the flag comment was one of those, there are various other examples throughout the threads linked above, I'm not going to the trouble of quoting them all.

I am Irish, and consider myself a sports fan, not soley a rugby fan (although it is one sport I participate in). Unfortunately (partly due to my build) I was never good at soccer or GAA sports in school, so I cannot say that I have participated in them, but I have been at many games, in Croke Park (and most recently saw Dublin getting hammered by Mayo in Castlebar).

It is as an Irish sports fan that I post my disgust for the insular paranoia of the GAA bigots. Thankfully the majority do not hold the same opinion as these few who.

And as a rugby fan I say to the FAI - get your own damn stadium and stop ruining our terraces with permanent seating! Or get a waiver and continue playing, but don't ruin my atmosphere just cos you can't behave!

Al.

Waylander

The flag comment was not bigotry, and was not intended to be bigotry. FFS I play soccer three times a week and roared as loud as any man when we won the triple crown. I also am a sports fan, not just a GAA fan. I also agree with you about the powerful minority, however I think we currently have one of the most progressive presidents the GAA has ever had, and if Croker is to open its doors, I think he is probably the man to do it. As for the taxpayers funds point, I think that this should have been negotiated before the grants were given. I think it is too late to try to change the agreement now.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty mouse I suggest you read the entire thread and then you might understand what I was refering to, or if you still can not follow it pm me and Ill try and talk you through it slowly. .

Careful Waylander. You wouldnt want to come across as a condecending rugger-bugger with an inability to understand simple enough responses to you statements.

The Rooster

Originally posted by Sleipnir
Like pressure from the people who actually paid for it to be built i.e. the people of Ireland? The People own it, not the GAA management.

What absolute and utter nonsense!!!!

Does that mean we all own a government jet! Lets demand a go on it now fast.

Actually I received a government grant when I bought my house. £3000 as far as I remember. Does that mean all taxpayers are entitled to spend a night if they want????

There are good arguments both for and against opening Croke Park. Rubbish spouted by the likes of Sleipnir (other nonsense includes anything to do with English, anthems, flags, civic duty etc.) adds nothing to the debate, other than farce.

The fact of the matter is that there are hundreds of building projects up and down the country that have received govt grants. And the GAA have given nearly as much back to the exchequer in VAT and payroll taxes.

The real question is why should the GAA open their doors to their biggest competitors? Would Dell let Compaq use their factory if Dell had excess capacity and Compaq had been negligent in acquiring their own facilities? Not a chance, unless the money was right. And even then it'd be a big decision.

So the GAA have to decide what amount of money, if any, would be sufficient to make it attractive to rent their premises to FAI or IRFU. That is a decision for the GAA, and nobody but the GAA.

Waylander

Careful Waylander. You wouldnt want to come across as a condecending rugger-bugger with an inability to understand simple enough responses to you statements.

You are right Mighty Mouth I would not. I should be safe enough though seeing as I have never played rugger in my life. If you have not got the ability to follow the discussion in the thread there is nothing I can do about that, but if you attack me for a fairly inoccuos comment I can defend myself. I do not know what your problem with my original statement was. Someone else had said that letting other codes into Croker would cheapen the experience for the youth of today, who grow up with aspirations to play in Croke Park. I pointed out that to play in a full stadium of that size is something to aspire to in any code, and I did not think the sport would really matter to the youths aspirations. If my comments were particularly vague I apologise for that but you could have sought clarification rather then blindly shooting you mouth off.

Rooster, just because you disagree with my point of view, it does not mean that my point is farcical. I feel that I have a genuione point. As I said earlier I am not strongly republican, I have nothing against British or English people at all, and have some very good friends from that neck of the woods. I am sorry you cannot be as tolerant of other peoples opinions as you demand other people to be of yours, but I guess that is just the way you are.

Yavvy

hrmmm A few goof points here. I see each person has a slightly different view on the matter and TBH itd not something we will ever come to an agreement on, Keep up the debate lads...just be careful of insulting and flaming....

Im not warning anyone, just want to see this thread stay on topic

The Rooster

I briefly scanned this thread initally with no intention of replying, as its old hat at this stage, and I don't even know where I stand on the issue of opening Croke Park. There are good reasons for and against it. I visited the board many times before eventually going into this thread when there was nothing else to look at. I quickly scanned it and Sleipnir's comment caught my eye and annoyed me, so I felt compulsed to reply.

I can honestly say I hadnt taken in your comments waylander, so was astonished that you got so upset with me (again!!). Your comments were most certainly not in my thoughts when I posted, so I was not having a go at you. At the time I didnt even realise I was disagreeing with you.

But I've read your comments fully now, and I see you are in the camp of allowing every soccer team in the world play in Croke Park, apart from our neighbours in England. Or maybe you'd let them play, but wouldnt let them play their anthem or wave their flags like every other country in the world would be allowed to.

And yes, I couldnt disagree with that line of argument more. Totally irrelevant to the debate, nonsensical, farcical, (some might even consider it racist) whatever you want to call it, thats how I feel about that line of argument in relation to opening up Croker. My opinion is that the English soccer team have done absolutely nothing to deserve being singled out in this way. Nor have even the English general public, or even the current (or any recent) English government.

And waylander, just to be clear, I'm not saying your not allowed have an opinion (which you always seem to infer anytime I disagree with you).

Waylander

There are good arguments both for and against opening Croke Park. Rubbish spouted by the likes of Sleipnir (other nonsense includes anything to do with English, anthems, flags, civic duty etc.) adds nothing to the debate, other than farce.

How can you say you had not even absorbed my comment when you directly refer to them in your last post. Rooster I could not care less what you think of me, and I am pretty sure you know what I think ofg you. But it does upset me when you start calling me racist on a public forum because I am payiung respect to a bit of Irish history. You can be a disrespectful twat all you like, and you seem to like it alot, but I think I have gone out of my way to demonstrate that I do not have any anti-english sentiment in this thread, I just think the victims of a horific event should have a small token of respect paid to them. Foir this reason I do not think it is totally irrelevanty to the debate at all. To my mind, and alot of other peoples, it is the cornerstone of this particular debate, but hey, you disagree with thiese people so it must not be important!

At least we can agree on the absurdity of Sleipnirs arguement, that is a bit of a novelty.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Imposter
Do we have to discuss this every few weeks?
Linkee 1
Linkee 2
Linkee 3
The first link was also a sticky until very recently here.

Precisely. There is no debate needed. And this is one situation where common sense is so far on one side that debating the issue only inflames the passions that lead to division where none should be necessary.

It would be lovely for soccer and rugby to be able to play their big games, their really big games, ie Ireland v England at Croke Park, but not if some 'traditionalists' want to say that the English can't fly their flag there or play their national anthem before an event in which they are playing Ireland on a level playing field as equal nations. We've moved on from there guys. If the English can play Argentina at the world cup since the Falklands War in 1982 and the Americans could play Iran after the hostage crisis in 1979-1980 then we should be able to play the English after 1922.

But the point is: neither Irish soccer nor rugby needs Croke Park. And we shouldn't be begging the GAA for 'rights' to use it. We've got Lansdowne Road, a new stadium there in development and cheap flights to various large stadium venues in England/Wales until its built.

Personally, as a rugby fan, I'd much rather help out the Welsh RFU who had the balls to build the Millennium Stadium even though they nearly bankrupted themselves in the process if they invited us to play there in the interim than kowtow to a bunch of wasters who want to tell us that they're more Irish than we are because they can say. 'Ta athas an domhain orm a uachtaireann an corr seo a glaca .....yadda yadda yadda'

I take the point that there's a new mentality in power at the head of the GAA with a more enlightened attitude. When you're ready to talk guys, let's do business. Until then carry on with your interminable contrived draws and replays to keep the same suckers coming back for more. :-)

The Rooster

I'd probably seen the references to flags and anthems, but hadnt realised it was you who'd said them waylander. I was just using them as examples of what I believe is nonsense argumets, similar to the grants issue, and the govt minister who said the GAA had a civic duty to let their rivals in.

I didnt call you a racist. I said your comments could be considered racist. Perhaps by an English person who might see you banning the English from Croke Park, but letting everyone else in. They might consider that racist.

I think "waster" is the last term I'd use to describe the GAA Hairy. Especially considering they use their resources so well that 22 of the largest 30 stadium (I pretty sure that's the stat I saw) in the country are GAA stadia, with the remaining 8 made up of the FAI and IRFU - probably most of them are IRFU. "Wasters" would be very apt description of the FAI and would even suit the IRFU more than the GAA.

Waylander

Hairy the only person to mention 1922 on this entire thread is you. I have attended Ireland v England rugby matches in the past and have no problem attending them again. Same with soccer, in fact for atmosphere they are probably the best opposition we can play. I never said that I had an issue with Irish teams playing English teams, you are just not reading the thread properly. My issue relates to a specific staduim and a specific event in history. Rooster I understand what you are saying about the possibility of my comment being misconstrued as racist but I have taken pains int his thread to point out that my issue lies only on this stadium only. I would rather see the rule itself abolished and would welcome seeing soccer or Rugby in Semple Stadium or Pairc Uí Chaoimh. Maybe in the interests of equality I should redefine my attitude to keep Croker for the Gaels but share all the other stadia no problem.

Hairy Homer

I mentioned 1922 to represent the end of the War of Independence, not some particular incident. In fact, I think ( I prepare to be stand corrected because can't be bothered googling) the event to which I'm sure you're referring occured in 1921.

The only GAA park that would be suitable for hosting internationals is Croke Park. To say that they would be hosted in Parc Ui Caoimh or Clones is a red herring.
Therefore if we host internationals there, we should respect standard protocol and let whoever is playing against us fly their flag and play their anthem. And if that minimum courtesy is not forthcoming, then we shouldn't even consider playing internationals there.

I really can't understand why anybody would object to that. An international sporting contest is a de facto recognition of a contest between nations of equal status.

We used to have a situation that pertained at rugby matches that we only played Amrhain na bhFiann at home games and not the other sides anthem. Then when we played away the reverse happened. By the early 1990s we'd all come to the conclusion that this preciousness was outdated, especially when the Welsh team in 1994 refused to kick off until they'd sung their anthem a capella because the band wasn't going to play it.

Now we have Ireland's Call - look what that bloody 'you can't play the English anthem here' mentality is responsible for!!!!!

Also the 'our stadiums are all bigger than yours' is another red herring. The Gaelic pitch is longer than the other code's so of course there's more room for people to stand in discomfort at Tullamore/Killarney/Tralee etc etc than there is at say Thomond Park.

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, when the GAA is ready to talk, they should give Rugby/Soccer/Cricket whoever a call and say 'Let's do business. Stadium for hire. How can we BEST serve your needs? I'm sure you'll make it worth our while'

Then it will be sorted. The customer is always right. :-)

The Rooster

Thomond Park holds less than 20,000. The Gaelic Grounds in Limerick holds 50,000. I think the pitch size has little to do with that. Similarly Musgrave Park has less than 50% of the capacity of Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

How many rugby stadia hold over 15,000? Four? Five?

Most counties in Ireland would have at least one gaelic ground with more than that. Size of the pitch is next to irrelevant.

Mighty_Mouse

Rugby/Soccer - (two professional organisations with respective leagues in tatters). Play more gaelic in Croker. Don't let the GAA become an money-oriented organisation.

Dewey

I'm Irish, and I'm a sports fan. I go to alot of Ireland Fooball games at Lansdowne but i, like most people, would love to see Soccer and Rugby in Croke Park. But when i say this to some GAA fans they say yeah it would be great but i wouldnt like to see the English flag or here there Nation Anthem .

This confusses me when i here this. Theses people dont have a problem with it in Lansdowne when ireland play england but for some reason they do have a problem with it in Croke Park. Do people think England are going to say when they are waving the english flag in Croke Park that Ireland is really apart of england or something?? Of course not.

English fans are there to support there country and i would love to see the english and the world to see what a great Stadium we have.

Plus more fans would be able to see the Ireland play Soccer/Rugby. And if Lansdowne gets rebuild we would have 2 great Stadiums for Rugby and Soccer. Plus we could host major events like the Europan Championship(co-host), Champions League Final and losts more. All this would be great for the GAA and Ireland.

I'm hoping that next year the GAA will open Croke Park because i would hate to see Ireland play "HOME" Quilifers in England when Lansdowne is getting rebuild.

Imposter

Originally posted by Dewey
Plus more fans would be able to see the Ireland play Soccer/Rugby. And if Lansdowne gets rebuild we would have 2 great Stadiums for Rugby and Soccer. Plus we could host major events like the Europan Championship(co-host), Champions League Final and losts more. All this would be great for the GAA and Ireland.

See the bits in bold. First and foremost Croke park is a GAA stadium you seem to be forgetting that. How would it be great for the GAA? If the GAA were able to open it less for GAA matches I would imagine it would be bad for the GAA even if attendences for Soccer and Rugby might be higher.

I'm hoping that next year the GAA will open Croke Park because i would hate to see Ireland play "HOME" Quilifers in England when Lansdowne is getting rebuild.

They can always use their own resources in Tolka or Dalymount. Also the FAI have never asked for the use of Croker.

Waylander

This confusses me when i here this. Theses people dont have a problem with it in Lansdowne when ireland play england but for some reason they do have a problem with it in Croke Park. Do people think England are going to say when they are waving the english flag in Croke Park that Ireland is really apart of england or something?? Of course not.

Read the whole thread and you will see why Croke park in particular has its own set of rules on this point, or why some people think it should anyway.

Big Ears

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Rugby/Soccer - (two professional organisations with respective leagues in tatters). Play more gaelic in Croker. Don't let the GAA become an money-oriented organisation.

the Eircom league has only 2 pro teams , the rest are semi pro .

Big Ears

Originally posted by Imposter

They can always use their own resources in Tolka or Dalymount. Also the FAI have never asked for the use of Croker.

Tolka park ( 11,000 cap ) Dalymount park (13,000 ) , u expect a nation of ****ing 4 million to have 13,000 people or less for an internationel match .

Mighty_Mouse

the Eircom league has only 2 pro teams , the rest are semi pro .

Point being - has professionalism been good for the League of Ireland and irish rugby league?

Waylander

It certainly has not done rugby any harm! The Irish provinces are amongst the favourites for the Heineken Cup, and we just won a triple crown on the back of a reasonably good World Cup performance. Also the IRFU is managing to rebuild its stadium, which is ban need of a refitting. Irish soccer clubs were never really world beaters to begin with so I do not think edging towards professionalism has done that any harm! So in answer to your question, it has undoubtedly been good for the Rugby, as there are only two professional soccer teams you cannot really call one way or the other.

Mighty_Mouse

It certainly has not done rugby any harm! The Irish provinces are amongst the favourites for the Heineken Cup, and we just won a triple crown on the back of a reasonably good World Cup performance.

My question addressed the national leagues so the fact that the national teams are going well is nothing to do with the terrible current state of the Irish leagues of Ireland. Both are in the worst state than in all their history with a number of clubs close to the edge.

What happens in professional sport is that the money floats to the top and everybody else struggles. Rugby and soccer leagues in Ireland proove this. If we want to change GAA in to a 3 team sport then fire away and professionalise it.

Waylander

I am not suggesting we do professionalise it, I like the fact that it is an amatuer sport. But I think the rugby in particular has thrived since turnign professional. Ulster have won the European cup and Munster and Leinster have both got to at least semi finals. Nearly the entire national side plays in the domestic leagues, and that is why I think the performance of the national side is relevant. Also in the soccer as already stated if only two clubs are professional I do not think that you can blame that for being the reason that other clubs are struggling. The two who are professional are doing reasonably well and both provide members to the International squad which in turn helps them to up their profiles.

Mighty_Mouse

Your completely raving about Rugby! The league of Ireland is a mess. I read something recently about Tony Ward talking about the disaster since professionalism.

Again provinces and National sides are doing fine but its not an indication of the current mess the league is in.Ill try and find the tony ward thing tomorrow.

Also in the soccer as already stated if only two clubs are professional I do not think that you can blame that for being the reason that other clubs are struggling

They're semi-professional which means every club is paying wages.

The Brigadier

I am English. I pay taxes in Ireland.

My taxes helped pay for Croke Park..

ergo...

Croke Park was part financed with English money!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

The Brigadier

Oh..and if Rugby was allowed...You would have a united Ireland playing at Croke Park...

Double HAHAHAAHAHA

Big Ears

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Point being - has professionalism been good for the League of Ireland and irish rugby league?

the 2 pro teams are the 2 best teams ( most seasons ) so yes , profesilism improves standard . We now have most Irish internationel rugby players playing at home because of profesilism , isnt it better that they're here and not in England or France .

The Rooster

Brigadier

Well done for contributing two posts of absolute no relevance to the debate.

I got 3,000 punts of a grant when I bought my house a few years ago. As well as Irish people, I'm sure taxpayers from a host of other countries who were residing in Ireland contrinuted too, maybe even yourself. But there's no fookin way I'm go to invite you or anyone else to stay in my house, just because you helped pay for it.

Imposter

Originally posted by Big Ears
Tolka park ( 11,000 cap ) Dalymount park (13,000 ) , u expect a nation of ****ing 4 million to have 13,000 people or less for an internationel match .

Well having 40k doesn't make much of a difference when compared to 4m people!

My point is Ireland being 'forced' to play their international matches abroad is rubbish. They can play them in Ireland but they'll have less people there. By playing them in England they'll hope to have more people there. They probably will for the bigger games but could you see more than 13k flying over to watch a game against Faroe Islands or some other minnow? So it's basically an economic decision by the FAI, that's come about because of their own lack of investment in facilities in Ireland. But sure it's simpler to blame the GAA. :rolleyes:

Big Ears

and 0 isnt that much of a difference compared to 13 thousand in 4 million , lets just play the game on a good pitch with not stands .