Irish soldiers hire locals for sex on UN misson

Sand

Say what you like about the UN, and I have, but its fair to say that Irish troops have a decent enough reputation built up from serving on several UN missons. Looks like Irish soldiers who were serving in Eritrea have got involved in a bit of a scandal there, where they apparently hired locals for sex including a 15 year old girl . The Irish army began an investigation, and according to a radio report I heard today the charges against the soldiers have been upheld. I cant find a web page about the actual judgement though ....cue left wing paranoid conspiracy theories.

Ive been reading Linda Polmans book, We Did Nothing, which pretty much recounts her experiences in Somalia, Haiti and Rwanda and how she felt the UN fared there (Id reccomend it to anyone ). She bumped into Irish peacekeepers and observers in Somalia and Haiti, and from her account of how the conversations went there was a fairly consistent racist tone to their views. The Irish in Somalia mocked the Indian peacekeepers they were serving with, claiming they were responsible for the stink in the camp among other things and the observer in Haiti baited the other observer he was with over his Islamic views. Certainly the Irish troops she met dont come across as enlightened or motivated.

Maybe we need to seriously examine attitudes amongst the soldiers that are being deployed with the UN to ensure that further dalliances with borderline paedophilia on the part of Irish troops cannot happen again, as well as a definite increase in respect for partner in UN missons. Whilst the Irish in Somalia exspressed contempt for the Indian forces, they did so in the center of a UN camp where the European forces which were apparently nearly all non-combatant and logistical, were safely surrounded by Indian, Pakistani and Bangledeshi troops who bore the near totality of the patrolling and thus dying. The commanders of those troops complained to Polman that they were being routinely disrespected by the Europeans troops despite their soldiers being the only ones in the camp with any real combat experience. These sort of attitudes cant continue if Irish troops are going to maintain their reputation.

mike65

Y'know I wondered if anyone would start a thread on this news subject...typically it had to you Sand rather than say, well I won't mention any names but they'd be the ones who'd be very quick of the mark to slagg off the racist, imperialist Yanks!

Clearly the expected standards of the UN and the Irish Defence Forces were not met. That such behaviour has occured should'nt be too much a surprise I guess. Irish troops are no more saintly than any other - good reputation or not. On the under-age its interesting to not the "NOT PROVEN" conclusion

This from the Scotsman-

Overseas Ban Likely for 'Sex-Scandal' Soldiers

By Kieran McDaid, PA News


A group of Irish soldiers who were found guilty of misconduct after being implicated in a sex scandal while on United Nations duty are likely to be banned from overseas service in the future, it emerged today.

A total of six servicemen were arraigned after allegations that they had been involved with prostitutes and underage Eritrean women while serving on a UN peacekeeping mission in the African country.

One of the four men voluntarily left the army following the reprimand, a fifth was found not guilty of the charges, while a sixth soldier is still awaiting completion of the disciplinary process.

The censured troops also face fines and a freeze on promotion opportunities after pleading guilty to breaking army regulations.

UN officials and Irish army chiefs launched two separate investigations last year after allegations were made that the men had indulged in improper behaviour during their tour of duty in the second half of 2002.

After a six-month investigation, which included some 90 interviews with Irish troops serving at home and abroad, Italian military police and local Eritrean women, the Irish authorities drafted a 79-page report.

The soldiers, none of whom were officers, were then brought before a hearing in Ireland.

Irish Defence Forces spokesman Commandant Brian Cleary an inquiry carried out jointly with the UN had found no evidence of underage sex or of full sexual intercourse taking place.

“It was confirmed that no underage activities took place and also that the liaisons were of a less serious nature, although they were indeed taken very seriously by ourselves,” he said.

“We are talking about conduct that is likely to prejudice the force in position.


Comdt Cleary said none of the cases involved allegations of rape or any form of sexual assault.

“We are talking about contravening directives on fraternisation with the local populous,” he said.

“In this instance soldiers of the Irish contingent were found to have breached those regulations.

“We brief our people very thoroughly before they go to any peacekeeping mission on the culture of the area and the implications of, for example, meeting women in Lebanon or Kosovo or having relations with people that might have an implication for the impartiality.”

Cmdt Cleary said the men had been fined and a reprimand had been placed on their file.

“The implications for overseas duty and for further promotion within the defence forces would be extremely grim,” he added.

Mike.

Wrestlemania

No Offence Sand to what you heard but I was in Eirteria before i left the army and it is total bullsh1t.

Irish soliders are a lot more respectable than all there other western counterparts and a few comments made by induviduals does not respresent the battalion or company on the ground. Some stupid moronic civilian as per usual (not you) taking comments out of context, I have been on several tours in Lebanon, The Balkans and Africa and can say discipline is both good and fair and the lads are usually very light hearted and good craic.

The Investigation by the Military Police is still being investigated and to be honest I dont think it will prove true at all.

Wrestlemania

If you can also remember the same sh1t was proven wrong in Cyprus a few years ago....

I was part of the company that was supposedly involved so no way..

Tommy Vercetti

Sand, perhaps you would like to edit the title of this thread to reflect the facts and not your own personal judgement.

Wrestlemania

A few more points to note: There was only ever "6" Irish Officers in Haiti.

Comments supposedly made in Baidoa, may have been by one or two but the majority of soldiers were members of the Army Ranger Wing and Mostly Border Units.
These men on there own steam fed children and had families at home doing fun raising for money to help feed them.

In Bosnia, Senior NCO's with SFOR, helped feed children in the mountains over Sarajevo with there "own" money, little they had, these children were shunned by all communites as most of them were born due to rapes.The Irish Military Police and Border Units again helped stop a lot of Slavery and Child Prostituion and this was not there mandate and many slave drivers and pimps were intercepted by Royal Military Police and Irish MP's.

In Kosovo, Men again from the Border units and Cork with there own money helped the upkeep of orphanages and helped both communites.

In Leabnon many villagers in the south in particular Tibnin were saved and quality of life maintained by Irish troops . The built a Orphanage and still to this day help it and had several children adopted and brought home.


These men involved did not rape or have underage sex, they were with women which is no different than you going on a one night stand here.

They may have breached military reg's but did not commit crime.

How dare you or anybody tarnish the name of soldiers who are the salt of the earth,impartial and solid soldiers.

These men are no more different than you and I and probadly better, they bring so quality to life for the places they are no matter where they go.

They are the real "Hearts and Minds" soldiers that all western armies should aspire to.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Sand
Looks like Irish soldiers who were serving in Eritrea have got involved in a bit of a scandal there, where they apparently hired locals for sex including a 15 year old girl . The Irish army began an investigation, and according to a radio report I heard today the charges against the soldiers have been upheld.

From the story Mike posted it's not clear that this is actually the case. They've been reprimanded for 'misconduct', but the Irish army statement is pretty sparse on the details.

So maybe you should investigate a bit further before claiming all the allegations as proven.

I cant find a web page about the actual judgement though ....cue left wing paranoid conspiracy theories.

I know you'll use any excuse, no matter how unrelated, to bash those perfidious lefties, but how is this relevant? On the face of it there's a stronger case for calling your rush to judgement a 'right-wing conspiracy'. But that would be just childish.

shotamoose

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0513/eritrea.html

The Defence Forces have confirmed that four Irish soldiers have been charged with personal misconduct and breaking UN regulations in Eritrea.

On RTÉ Radio, Commandant Brian Cleary said that the charges followed an investigation into complaints that Irish peacekeepers had been involved with underage Eritrean women.

At preliminary arraignment hearings, the troops pleaded guilty to misconduct. Underage sex charges were not proven.

Commandant Cleary said the chances that the soldiers involved would be promoted or stationed abroad were very slim.

echomadman

whats the age of consent in eritrea?

edit: never mind, its 18.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Wrestlemania

How dare you or anybody tarnish the name of soldiers who are the salt of the earth,impartial and solid soldiers.

Seems to me like your problem is with the author of the book Sand was quoting.

Are you seriously saying that because some Irish soldiers are salt of the earth and feed children out of their own pocket all Irish soldiers are salt of the earth and feed children out of their own pocket?

Are you really saying that there is no basis whatsoever to the claim that some Irish soldiers are racist?

Or are you more concerned with the image of Irish soldiers than with their actual behaviour?

vorbis

shotamoose he has a point. It only takes a couple of allegations unproven or not to tarnish the entire reputation of a force. Sand really shouldn't be highlighting the underage part since it seems to be unproven. The majority of irish troops seem decent so thats a reasonable enough basis for saying the irish army operates to and maintains high standards.

shotamoose

Originally posted by vorbis
shotamoose he has a point. It only takes a couple of allegations unproven or not to tarnish the entire reputation of a force.

So what, people shouldn't report things like racism among Irish soldiers abroad? Better for people to put this in perspective themselves than to be kept in ignorance.

Sand really shouldn't be highlighting the underage part since it seems to be unproven.

Agreed.

vorbis

no people report another person's opinion about perceived racism. very quickly you end up with media reports stating the entire army is racist. Thats the problem, theres very rarely any attempt made to put things into perspective. Look at the current aib scandal. People are using it to say that the entire banking sector is corrupt. In overall terms, the money made from the mistake is a pittance in banking terms. I'd say no bank would willingly risk its reputation for such a small return. So with the eritrea case, i'd imagine some people will start jumping to conclusions about our troops sexually harassing local inhabitants.

Wrestlemania

Shotamoose.

A few remarks by an induviual or 1 or 2 men does not mean they are racist, if they are so be it.

The majority of Irish soldiers are good people and 99% will help anyone.

I remember us delivering a baby in the back of a car in Nahaddath in Lebanon and not a medic amongst us.

They are the top of the league for being the creme of decent good natured soldiering.

Why do you think from Waring factions before a UN force is sent in the Irish are always requested.

If I could sit you down you would'nt believe the stories and aid workers would'nt even have a look in.

We sometimes would cancel leave and help rebuild villages and do painting and decorating in peoples houses in the Leb, and those people really appreciated it.

I would'nt see to many yanks doing that.

The Age of consent there is 16 like the UK.

Redleslie

UN, NATO slammed over sex slavery

Typical far left reaction to market forces and human nature. Any time a few entrepreneurs look like developing an industry the bureaucrats have to jump in and wreck it with Red tape and regulation. If child labour's ok and AIDS is allowed ravage the 3rd world, surely these sluts should be allowed carry on their business. They probably enjoy it. I only hope that if a few butch bints start agitating for a whore union the authorities step in and smash it.

chewy

i have some sympathy for soldiers who feel hard done by all these accusations which then paint them all in a bad light but everytime a former soldier comes on and says "they're good guys dont you ever criticise any of them you wouldn't last a minute in the army"

they lose all my sympathy, all orgs and groups of people should be questioned over what they are doing and should have independent investigators otherwise there will always be doubts.... its not a inuslt its a healthy thing

the very idea that you don't question you just do in the army and police is imho how they work so efficiently and how they mess things up so often...

prostitution is it legal most places ? is it legal in kosova, eritrea, lebannon....
im not going to pretend prostitution doens't exist

what sort of personal conduct rules are there for soldiers, is it ok for them to use prostitutes when there legal/not legal...

it a fact to say a huge group of soldiers will beget a sex industry near by....is that wrong or its that life....

but fo course all sorts of nasty things will happen in the sex industry and some coutnries /areas will have unions, regular health checks , free condoms etc etc but they only so much you can do

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
A few remarks by an induviual or 1 or 2 men does not mean they are racist, if they are so be it.

A minute ago you were all outraged that someone could suggest such a vile and unthunkably unfair thing about the Irish soldiers.

Now you're saying "well, maybe some are like that, but hey - whats the big deal" ?????

The majority of Irish soldiers are good people and 99% will help anyone.

replace the word Irish with American. Then ask what some of the other 1% have just been caught up in. Now explain to me why someone shouldn't be asking questions about the 1% of Irish soldiers which may also be a problem.

I remember us delivering a baby in the back of a car in Nahaddath in Lebanon and not a medic amongst us.

How good of you....but I'm wondering what the relevance is, because no-one here has accused you of being amongst the potential "problem soldiers".

If I could sit you down you would'nt believe the stories and aid workers would'nt even have a look in.

And you'd still be saying "look, because most of teh guys are good, you shouldn't be saying there's a problem with the ones who aren't good".

And again, I'd point at the US army and ask you to have the balls to make a similar statement about them - that because the vast majority fo them don't cause problems, we shouldn't be criticising the people who apparently have comitted grevious atrocities in Iraq.

The Age of consent there is 16 like the UK.

For someone who's constantly berating others about posting stuff they just don't know about, I can't believe you just did that.

Put the words "Eritrea age of consent" into google, and press the search button.

Its that easy to find the age of consent in Eritrea, and you still managed to get it wrong.

jc

Wrestlemania

Right Bonkey, a lot of what your saying hmmm I dunno is it a personal stab at me and my views or not:

1. First thing is first, Racism is everywhere and I am not saying it is in our army but the majority of people in there are normal down to earth persons, if there is scum who use filthy terms and experessions so be it to the powers to be to deal with them. I in general have heard very little remarks as such.Maybe I am lucky.

2. I believe there is a big different between us and the yanks, we have a small more closely knit force the american are a reflection of a huge nation, we are aswell but on a more linear and mostly singular thinking society.

3. I am not saying that I am being accused, what I am saying is, if the so called tabloids or rumours spread all soldiers will supposedly be classed as perv's.

4. Yes you are right there is bad apples everywhere and totally correct but our discipline is better but sometimes it will go wrong.

5. I am defending the armys name as I think they are a good bunch, no more than you would defend your family name etc.

6. In regard to the age of consent, I was told it was 16 if I am wrong slap my wrists.


The army seem to be only as good as there last job and rumours spread then tend to give it a bad name.

mike65

Wrestlemania if there were two of you, you could close ranks!

Mike.

Wrestlemania

Huh??

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
if there is scum who use filthy terms and experessions so be it to the powers to be to deal with them. I in general have heard very little remarks as such.Maybe I am lucky.

And I've no problem with that. It was your initial insistence that what Sand was trying to discuss had to be bullsh1t because you've been there that I was taking umbrage with.

2. I believe there is a big different between us and the yanks,

That much is clear. I wasn't trying to say that the Irish army is in any way like the yanks. I'm trying to say that 99% of our troops being the wonderboys you make them out to be is not good enough.

Your dismissal of the charges is basically along the lines of "but our guys wouldn't do that". My point is that this is not a good enough defense.

3. I am not saying that I am being accused,

No - you're giving a litany of your actions to try and explain why someone else shouldn't be accused of something. It has no relevance. None.

what I am saying is, if the so called tabloids or rumours spread all soldiers will supposedly be classed as perv's.

I'm looking back at Sand's post, and seeing no condemnation of the army either as an organisation or as a group of individuals. There are no sweeping statements that I can see, no condemnations, an admission of uncertainty, and basically everything else one could wish for in a rational discussion.

And before anyone else posted anything else criticising the Irish army, you came up with :

How dare you or anybody tarnish the name of soldiers who are the salt of the earth,impartial and solid soldiers.

Also, I find it priceless that you refer to this stuff as "rumours". Clearly there was enough "rumour" to warrant a military investigation. The article linked to likewise presents it as allegations and an investigation - no conclusions.

So I really can't see where all of your "protect the innocent" indignation is coming from unless you are suggesting that it is wrong to either investigate potential wrongdoing, or to report that potential wrongdoing by one's national military (who are effectively representing the nation abroad) is being investigated.

our discipline is better but sometimes it will go wrong.

See. Now we're getting somewhere. Only a few posts ago, it was total bullsh1t to suggest that an Irish army person could do anything like this, and shame on anyone who even mentions it.

Now you're admitting that it could happen because there are bad apples.

All thats left is to also conclude that it is right and proper to both investigate and report on this fairly, so that people can have faith in teh system, and know that it was a "bad apple", rather than a faulty or corrupt system .

6. In regard to the age of consent, I was told it was 16 if I am wrong slap my wrists.

Its a bit more than that I'm afraid.

1) You - by your own admission - were stationed in the country.
2) You - in defence of the soldiers - stated that they did nothing wrong by going out and having sex with women.
3) You, as a soldier, could not therefore have known the correct legal age of consent in a country where you have defended the practice of soldiers going out and having sex with the locals.

Now, put those three together, and you should see gaping big holes in your various arguments.

For a start, your unquestioning defence of the miltary and their quality has to be also called into question. If the army didn't even educate its people in place (i.e. you) as to the laws they might be breaking, how can you possibly say that the quality is in any way acceptable. Note - you said that there was nothing wrong with teh soldiers going off and having sex with locals.

Secondly, your insistence that these men may have broken army regs but they didn't perform criminal acts is also suspect. YOu - as one of the irish soldiers who were in Eritrea - did not know the correct legal age of consent. What possible reason do we have to think that other soldiers in Eritrea would be better informed??? Your own error shows that it is entirely possible for these men to have had sex with a minor without realising it. Unfortunately (for them), ignorance of the law is no excuse.

jc

mike65

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Huh??

See Victors post above....

Mike.

Wrestlemania

bonkey age of consent and other matters such as that are not in training .One thing is clear that you dont go near persons who are underage, secondly, I am saying if these soliders had sexual relations it was consetual. We are all humans, no more different that here in Ireland.

What is wrong with being Hetrosexual and having female companionship nothing and the women in mention as far as I know had minor relationships with one or two of these soilders. It was a breach of army DFR but not criminal as I said before.

And to have sex with a minor, I think we all know within reason if the female is underage.If am mistake was made well so be it but what I have be told that was not the truth about an underage girl.

In a nutshell the army is better than the majority of other forces but mistakes do happen I am not disputing that. What I am disputing is the Generalisation that was made by sand.

Mighty_Mouse

bonkey age of consent and other matters such as that are not in training .One thing is clear that you dont go near persons who are underage,

Read this again and if you can't see a problem, its time to give up!

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
bonkey age of consent and other matters such as that are not in training .

OK. So we're agreed that the level of training in the Irish army is completely irrelevant to whether or not these people had underage sex?

One thing is clear that you dont go near persons who are underage,

But Wrestlemania...you did't know what constitutes underage. If a soldier down there is as well informed as you, and knew for a fact that a girl was 17, he would have no issue having consensual sex with her.....and it would be a criminal offence, and it would qualify as exactly what you are saying these peopel would never do.

secondly, I am saying if these soliders had sexual relations it was consetual.

No-one has suggested otherwise. However, consensual sex with an underage is still a criminal offence.

Look....you are demonstrating more and more clearly that these soldiers would not necessarily know what constitutes underage sex, whilst at the same time insisting that they simply wouldn't be involved in it because they'd clearly know not to.

It was a breach of army DFR but not criminal as I said before.

I've never said it was criminal. I've said that your insistence that it couldn't be is based on such shaky ground that it is becoming laughable. The more you explain it, the more you make it clear that your insistence that it was not criminal is based on nothing more than hopeful thinking.

You didn't know the legal age. You admit the army isn't concerned about informing its troops of such matters. You admit that such dalliances are technically breach of army regulartions so we know the troops in question are not averse to breaking rules....

So exactly what grounds do you have for insisting that any allegations of criminality have to be bullsh1t?

And to have sex with a minor, I think we all know within reason if the female is underage.

An hour ago, you would have believed that sex with a 17 year old in Eritrea was perfectly legal.

I think its clear that - within reason - there is a two year age-bracket where you most certainly were incapable of knowing if someone was underage....which means that we can have no faith that anyone else in the army there knows any better.

If am mistake was made well so be it but what I have be told that was not the truth about an underage girl.

Ah!!!! Thats why its all bullsh1t.....because someone told you it was. Why didn't you just present this conclusive argument in the first place???

<edit>
I hope it wasn't the same someone who told you the age of consent was 16
</edit>

In a nutshell the army is better than the majority of other forces but mistakes do happen I am not disputing that. What I am disputing is the Generalisation that was made by sand.

Which generalisation???

but its fair to say that Irish troops have a decent enough reputation built up from serving on several UN missons

This one?

I've re-read through the article, and I can't see a single other generalisation in the entire post.

I'd be amazed if thats what you took offence to, though, so maybe you could do a similar cut-and-paste and show me what I'm missing? No, really.

jc

Sand

Sand, perhaps you would like to edit the title of this thread to reflect the facts and not your own personal judgement.

It reflected the facts of the case as I understood them at the time. As I said in the initial post I had heard on the radio in work that charges against the soldiers had been upheld. I was unable to find any reference to the case beyond the page I provided a link to which included the allegation of the 15 year old being hired. I put 2 and 2 together and got 5.

I will be happy to edit the thread title to reflect that the allegation of hiring a child prostitute was not proven - once I finish this reply. Ive not had a go at this before, so If i fail hopefully a moderator will alter the title.

How dare you or anybody tarnish the name of soldiers who are the salt of the earth,impartial and solid soldiers.

Im sorry that the thread has made you so angry. I did refer to the reputation the Irish troops have earned abroad, and my remarks to greater scrutiny were linked to maintaining that reputation. Whilst the soldiers involved in the case and the soldiers Polman met are undoubtedly not the majority of the IDF the fact is that the misdemeanors of a few can undo all the good work of many. Anyone who is as concerned with the good name and standing of the IDF as you clearly are should, I would have thought, been the most insistent that high standards be met and adhered to and where they are not investigations carried out and training/methods reviewed to ensure it cannot happen again.

As it is, it seems the Eritrean misson has caused some trouble between the Eritrean government and the UN peacekeepers - according to this bbc report Irish soldiers were previously involved in another sex scandal where a soldier taped himself with a prostitute and the tape was seemingly widely distributed. Fairly consensual ( this UN Report indicates that the soldier in question exploited the woman ) and thus not really a major issue? On the one hand Id say yeah, but on the other the Eritrean government is apparently hopping mad about the conduct of UN forces and has made several accusations, see the UN report I linked and this bbc report where it says it wants the UN/Irish peacekeepers gone .

As such this misbehaviour whilst seemingly minor enough on the surface leads to Irelands peacekeeper efforts being tarnished, not by accusations of these activities, but by the activities themselves leading to problems with the host governments with whom and excellent relationship is required for a successful misson because the UN does not have the ability to confront a hostile government.

I know you'll use any excuse, no matter how unrelated, to bash those perfidious lefties, but how is this relevant?

Its just a bit of slagging and its not relevant so lets not get into it.

So with the eritrea case, i'd imagine some people will start jumping to conclusions about our troops sexually harassing local inhabitants.

The Eritrean government sure did. Reputation isnt concrete - it can vanish in a single act, which might seem relatively minor to us, but might be seen as exploitive or offensive to cultures which take perhaps a more puritanical view of sexual relations.

I never said this activity was typical of the Irish troops but I was disturbed that the few Irish peacekeepers Polman met didnt live up to the reputation the rest of the IDf have forged - ( leading to a bad impression of the Irish on the part of anyone who reads the book perhaps? ), and I was disturbed by the fact that these *particular* soldier in Eitrea engaged in activity which led to serious anger on the part of Eritreans, undermining the good work of every other Irish and UN soldier there. Thats a problem and it needs to be dealt with seriously if UN missons are to be successful in the future.

The majority of Irish soldiers are good people and 99% will help anyone.

No doubt, and no doubt this is true of the American army as well but those 99% in that army have been badly let down by the 1% who have engaged in the abuses in that prison which means that as far as the Iraqis are concerned *anyone* wearing that uniform is now connected to those abuses, despite the fact 99% of them are no doubt wonderful people.

The Irish in this case have not been involved in anything that we would view as being even close to that serious - but as the Eritrean reaction shows it causes damage to reputations and relationships all the same. The IDF cant just be satisfied it has a good reputation built up from past actions - it has to be extremely protective of the reputation in who it sends abroad to represent both Ireland and the UN and what training/leadership they receive.

6. In regard to the age of consent, I was told it was 16 if I am wrong slap my wrists.

As Bonkey has said, this indicates a need for greater training of Irish troops serving abroad - if only to ensure Irish troops who may otherwise make an honest mistake over the age of consent will not endanger the reputation of the IDF which you are rightfully so protective of.

Wrestlemania

Thanks for explanations

Bonkey you think I am constantly contradiciting myself are you a teacher !:dunno:

thejollyrodger

hey man,

There are like 5 men invovled in this whole incident!

How many Thousand upon thousand of tours of duty have irish soldiers performed in the name of this stinkin country without incident ?

Stop jumping the gun, there is rotten apples everywhere, the drug selling Gardai (police), corrupt TDs, Priests who had sex with young boys , you name it buddy !!Welcome to the REAL WORLD !


so back off, and put this whole incident into context. None of the girls were underage, If this was the French Foreign Legion, British Army, or the US Army, it would be common place to have sex overseas. This should be punished, which it is so end of story

chewy

the problem people have with the gardai, army and priesthood...

is that yes there only a few bad apples but the so called 99% good people often do cover up and refuse to report the actions of these bad apples and it is this attitude which mars the whole of these organisation...


these organisations are fundamentally based on hireachy, orders from above and not questioning orders and that makes them different from any other section of society or say a large company

mr wwf .. i think you or someone said that there the Military police were quite good/strict in investigating the army but its still the army investigating itself...

would you be in favour ie like to actively work toward having fuly independent exterior investigators for the poilce and army?