The "other" pictures : show, or not?

bonkey

I was flicking through the channels last night, and saw that CNN had an interview with some US lawmaker (as he was referred to...can't remember who it was) who had amongst those who had seen the additional pictures from Iraq which Congress has but which have not been made public.

The reaction was quite disturbing : "think of the worst-case scenario and multiply it by 10. This is worse"

(I'm paraphrasing, but thats the type of language that was used).

I'm curious. Do people feel the pictures should be released to the public?

On one hand, I think that full disclosure is the best way to restoring faith in the US Armed Services and the operations they are conducting.

On the other hand, I can see how the release of these pictures will make the occupation's work in Iraq even more impossible, which I see no benefit to .

I do not subscribe to the notion that US withdrawal would be a "good" end-result, because in my opinion it would plunge the country into civil war, possibly sparking off a Turkish/Kurdish war, as well as potential "revenge invasions" from Iran and/or Kuwait.

Its a tough call. I can see no good solution - its really a lose-lose from my perspective. I'm just not sure which loss is less.

Thoughts?

jc

MarcusGarvey

I don't think they should presently be released as it will only escalate tensions but I feel in this digital age they'll manage to get released anyway. Nothing remains a secret for long nowadays.

I wonder could these be accessed via a Freedom of Information request like TheMemoryHole.org did with the coffin pictures ?

vorbis

voted yes. People will only be howling cover up if they aren't. Maybe realease them in a couple of weeks.

MeatProduct

I can understand the view of keeping these images out of public view but I do feel the the public should know just how badly this war is being managed and the offensive abuse that prisioners endure at the hand of the US soldiers.

I'm of the opinion that it was no accident the the video of the American being beheaded was released. Aside from how disgusted I am by this act it has played into the hands of the US administration, these people will stoop down to any level as we are all aware.

These pictures should be made public. The US TAX-payer is paying for this war and they should have complete access to the atrocities they are paying for.

Nick

PS: Apologies if anyone is offended by any of my comments.

Imposter

If it could be guaranteed that they'd never be seen then I wouldn't releases them as there has been enough pictures released for the general population to get a good understanding of what is happening.

However I don't think it is possible to stop these pictures from being released so releasing them might help curb the sensationalist cover-up stories and the like.

vorbis

I'm of the opinion that it was no accident the the video of the American being beheaded was released. Aside from how disgusted I am by this act it has played into the hands of the US administration, these people will stoop down to any level as we are all aware.

Yeah I'm sure they hired Al Qaeda for the day. :rolleyes:
Honestly, do some people not realise how foolish and illogical some of their conspiracy stories sounds. This kind of comment borders on idiotic.

pro_gnostic_8

Voting NO. As was said in previous posts above, such a move could motivate further acts of revenge like the infamous beheading. The situation in Iraq is volatile enough as it is.

And I'm open to correction here, but, wouldn't an official release of the material compromise future criminal proceedings against the soldiers involved?

Anyway, like MarcusGarvey I think the photos will shortly leak unnofficially into the public domain.

MeatProduct

Originally posted by vorbis
Yeah I'm sure they hired Al Qaeda for the day. :rolleyes:
Honestly, do some people not realise how foolish and illogical some of their conspiracy stories sounds. This kind of comment borders on idiotic.

Thanks for that vorbis. Not sure I said they hired someone to do that but sure go ahead anyway. I'm just looking at who this benfits. If you want to call that idiotic go right ahead.

Nick

dathi1

Under the freedom of Information act they will have to be released eventually? I think they should be.. to show exactly from the top down the arrogant and racist attitude of the current necon American psyche.

Sleipnir

Originally posted by MeatProduct
I'm of the opinion that it was no accident the the video of the American being beheaded was released.

The americans didn't release it, it was the animals who commited the act who released it.


Back OT, yes I think they should be released. Why should the world be kept from seeing it? If they are permitted to cover up abuse of prisoners then the way is open for them to do whatever they want.

dahamsta

Originally posted by dathi1
Under the freedom of Information act they will have to be released eventually?

American freedom of information is in tatters. The Bush administration has been classifying everything they can get their hands on.

I voted yes btw. Governments should be open to scrutiny, with very few exceptions. This is not one of them.

adam

Zulu

Voted yes.
Releasing the pictures is the only way to motivate the bovine public in the states to get off their fat asses and do something about the idiots who are destroying their name/ethos abroad.
If the pictures get released (preferably not in one go) it will make it impossible for Rumbsfelt to stay. The sooner the chicken-hawks are cleared out the sooner Powell and the likes can begin to sort out the mess that has been created by this administration.
The worst thing that could happen to the US is a second term of Bush/Cheany/Rumbsfelt.

Gurgle

Voted yes too.
If the UN / International community are ever to be involved in trying to sort Iraq out, this kind of information has to be public knowledge.

If it is classified and kept secret, the victims & their familys will harbour resentment for a long time into the future.

If it is made public & those responsible punished this may give the victims a sense of closure at least, possibly even justice.

Zombrex

just wondering (havent voted in poll) but isn't it illegal for the US to release pictures of torture, not for the US beneifit, but to protect the identity of those being abused?

Sleipnir

Originally posted by Wicknight
just wondering (havent voted in poll) but isn't it illegal for the US to release pictures of torture, not for the US beneifit, but to protect the identity of those being abused?

aragh they can do the auld 'blurry faces' thing.

Zulu

Originally posted by Wicknight
just wondering (havent voted in poll) but isn't it illegal for the US to release pictures of torture, not for the US beneifit, but to protect the identity of those being abused?

No it's ok - they're hooded. :ninja:

Sand

They should probably be released. As it is the damage is done. The "Arab Street" is enraged - no change there anyway. The Iraqis are angry too though ironically I was reading on BBC that many Iraqi papers and interviewees seemed willing to accept Bush's apology and Coalition punishment of the soldiers involved, certainly more so than the Arab street though thats of course not to say there isnt intense anger over the images.

At this stage to hold back the pictures will lead to conspiracy rumours over what exactly was done. Wouldnt be long before youll hear about Mengle style medical experiments and so on. A total release of information, no matter how bad it is, will at least ensure that the problem can begin to be addressed rather than constantly hanging overhead until the next leak, or the next accusation, which would undo any relations rebuilt in the meantime.

There is the risk to soldiers and civillians. However the Coalition forces and civillians have been routinely targeted before this anyway so no change there. Daniel Pearle afterall was murdered in a horrific manner long before the atrocities at that Iraqi prison. It could be argued that if the coalition is seen to accept responsibility and punish those who tortured the prisoners and take steps to ensure that it will not happen again , and are seen to be frank and honest about it then it will go more to placate anger and protect lives than being secretive would.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Wicknight
just wondering (havent voted in poll) but isn't it illegal for the US to release pictures of torture, not for the US beneifit, but to protect the identity of those being abused?

According to the Geneva convention . . . yes it is illegal but hey, its not like the US recognise international law now is it . . .

whosurpaddy

Originally posted by Sleipnir
The americans didn't release it, it was the animals who commited the act who released it.


Back OT, yes I think they should be released. Why should the world be kept from seeing it? If they are permitted to cover up abuse of prisoners then the way is open for them to do whatever they want.

agree fully with this.

Wrestlemania

I voted No as it is going to cause more damage than good.

yes the red cross etc should see them and investigations done independantly but what will it achieve another head cutting off incident.

It happened yes but the public should hear the results but not see the pictures.

ChipZilla

Hmm, looks like Lynndie England wasn't the good little CIA-order-following soldier she was making out to be the other day:

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm

Wonder if these photos will be made public?

Wrestlemania

She is truly disgusting.

Zulu

Originally posted by ChipZilla
Hmm, looks like Lynndie England wasn't the good little CIA-order-following soldier she was making out to be the other day:

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm

Wonder if these photos will be made public?

Looks like a nice easy way to discredit any revelations she might make about seniors. I'll wait to see the evidence.
That being said - I hope she rots in hell.

Wrestlemania

Point to note a lot of these morons in the pictures are reservists and national guard.

Undertrained muppet like in the FCA, weekend Wombats!

Nuttzz

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Undertrained muppet like in the FCA, weekend Wombats!

//OT A friend of mine is in the FCA, he spent 12 years in the PDF does that make him a muppet too? He is grateful for the PDF for giving him the skills that he can use in civilian life (IT) and feels that the army shouldnt lose access his skills completely.

We know that the abuse happened, they have admitted to it, do we need to see more pictures? Just like Berg losing his head, we know that it happened but do we need to see the video plastered all over the media.

pro_gnostic_8

O.T/ part 2,

Too right, the above poster. Why does Wrestlemania feel compelled to make snide and unjustified remarks against the FCA in this (totally unrelated) thread.

"UNTRAINED MUPPETS" my arse. Shows his ignorance about our own Defence Forces.

Typing this, I'm looking out my window here in the Glen area in Cork city and I'm seeing (genuinely) a half dozen youths swigging cider and generally being anti-social. The very few kids I know who have involved themselves with the FCA, on the other hand, have developed into the finest examples of humanity that it is my pleasure to have come across.

Respect.

Wrestlemania

I am not having a go at the Sandbags, they are in general gombeens and in the FCA for Drinking...

This is off topic I was making a comparison. And BTW most of the PDF think the same as me.. They have no role and money for them would be better spent elsewhere.

I have non problem with national service for those scallywags.

If you were offended my apologies.

Zulu

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I am not having a go at the Sandbags, they are in general gombeens and in the FCA for Drinking...

If you were offended my apologies.

You apologise with one remark and insult with the other.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

I said yes- release them. I understand your concerns about inflammation jc, but I think two realities have to be faced.

First, in the digital age, keeping a lid on a story that has broken is simply and purely impossible. The photos aired on 60 minutes II, a prime-time network television news affairs programme on CBS in the US- only censored for their "sexual content"- and even that was probably motivated more by Janet Jackson's nipple-flash at the Superbowl.

My point in emphazising the facts is this- a news station was willing to release the photos in as pure a form as was available, something the Pentagon really really really wouldn't and didn't want. The identities of the accused (innocent until proven guilty must still surely apply, abridging the concept for political convenience invites widespread abuse). Consider also that exposing the identities of the soldiers *SERIOUSLY* jeopardizes legal proceedings against the soldiers charged. In spite of all that, the original photos were picked up and run with by CBS.

Not to mention- my friends and contacts inside the US Army (some at extremely senior levels) assure me that the blistering hatred for Donald Rumsfeld within the Army in particular has been festering ever since Gen. Shinseki and Lyndon Ramsey were fired for asserting uncomfortable truths (more troops needed, better coverage of key government responsibilities like interrogation etc.) As such be rest assured that when Rumsfeld looks most vulnerable, Washington's favorite tool, the controlled leakwill be employed by the Army via the photos in its portfolio. Also, to look at history- in a pre-digital age, My Lai was exposed despite the draconian regulations in place.


The second point to make, or rather the question to ask is this- if the photos will eventually come out anyway, is it better to open the doors early and DEAL with the fall-out, or postpone it until such a time as when they ARE released? The impact will grow with the perception that policy critiques are not pursued unless they are streamlined with administration interests. In other words, full and immediate exposure is best for all parties concerned- swift and fair justice for the accused balanced by the need to lance a boil quickly rather than it prick and drip, drip drip. Look at the impact that My Lai had when its discovery took place so far before its reporting.

Not possible to keep them secret- I mean, if the most secretive White House since Nixon was unable to keep a lid on this before it broke, then how the devil are they planning to do it now?

Wrestlemania

Originally posted by Zulu
You apologise with one remark and insult with the other.

Sorry Zulu could'nt resist.:D

ArphaRima

Voted yes.

I firmly believe that if something happens it should be shown. Full stop.


Especially when they are photos of crimes committed by those who represent the public. If acts are committed by these representatives, shouldnt the public get to see them, to see why they are being labelled fascists and torturers the world over?

shotamoose

It's a nightmare decision, but on balance I say release them. Occy is right - they'll emerge anyway, and from a purely political point of view Bush should release them now and hope against hope that it somehow blows over rather than risking them constantly leaking out all the way up to the election.

It's hard to believe that there could be any photos even more damaging than the old Iraqi-on-a-lead one, but holding back ones which have been described as worse will only feed rumours of ever more gruesome horrors.

gandalf

Well I do not think releasing them will improve the situation in Iraq so I wouldn't be in favour of releasing them.

However as this is an election year in the US I can see some of them being leaked to damage George Jr's re-election chances. So they will probably get in circulation.

earwicker

I agree with both the unfortunate Bob and Shotamoose. "Free speech" is never simple. It's unlikely that the pictures will help matters in Iraq, but, on balance, I believe that the American public has the right to see how their money is being spent and how they are being represented abroad. I don't think withdrawal is an option, but perhaps the Americans will get the political will to actually improve the situation instead of being so complacent: the war reports have become very routine. What those improvements might be is another day's work.

I also think that it's unavoidable that this will become a political football. After all, the troops' presence in Iraq is political to begin with, so why would the politicization of the issue suddenly stop?