Should Russia withdraw from Chechnya?

arcadegame2004

Hi what do people feel on this issue?

gandalf

Maybe you should read the forum rules and fire up own view before asking others to do so.

I will delete this thread in the next day if I don't see your views added to it.

arcadegame2004

Sorry Gandalf. Here are my views:

Russia should withdraw from Chechnya. By denying Western media access to the region, they seem to be confirming Amnesty International and other human-rights groups reports of ethnic-cleansing of Chechens by the Russian military. Chechnya is an example of the general regressiveness of the Russia political system away from democracy and respect for human-rights to a darker time, when the Russian rulers supressed freedom of political expression, freedom of the press, and oppressed ethnic-minorities. I strongly feel that the situation there is not goign to improve until Russia stops trying to revive imperial notions of a "Greater Russia". Western Europe has loing since abandoned such notions and I can't help but feel that poverty-stricken Russia, no longer a superpower, is using Chechnya to boost its ego by reviving imperial notions, and dangerous ones at that.

David-[RLD]-

Yes, they should withdraw. Imperialism is a sign of governmental bigotry and Darwinist beliefs.

spongebob

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Chechnya is an example of the general regressiveness of the Russia political system away from democracy and respect for human-rights to a darker time, when the Russian rulers supressed freedom of political expression, freedom of the press, and oppressed ethnic-minorities.

They killed most Chechens when they were most democratic, in the Mid 1990s. They have killed 10% of the population in the past 10 years and trashed Grozhny, a city the size of Cork if not bigger. They are less lethal under Putin.

They should have been in the Hague long ago.

M

vorbis

yes they should withdraw. for the life of me I don't know what they stood to gain from going in there in the first place.

arcadegame2004

"They have killed 10% of the population in the past 10 years and trashed Grozhny, a city the size of Cork if not bigger. ".

Who do you define as "they"? BTW it was the Russians who trashed Grozny. 70% of the city was destroyed in the first Chechen war. It is Putin that should be sent to the Hague.

LegacyUser

i think they should stay and finish off any remaining rebels, ive seen way too many slow removal of heads while victim is still alive vids to have any concern for the chechens

arcadegame2004

bananayoghurt, videos like that certainly do not justify the wholesale slaughter of civilians in their tens of thousands that the Russians have engaged in.

arcadegame2004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3611629.stm

Rights groups condemn Chechen abuses (Thursday, 8 April, 2004)

By Steve Rosenberg
BBC Moscow correspondent


Human rights organisations have issued a joint statement condemning what they say are widespread abuses in the Russian republics of Chechnya and Ingushetia.

The groups - including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch - say that despite Moscow's claims to have normalised the situation in the north Caucasus, the cycle of violence there continues.


Human rights groups say there have been attacks against civilians
The Kremlin says that life in Chechnya is gradually returning to normal, but human rights organisations tell a very different story.

They have provided new evidence of rape, torture and summary execution of Chechen civilians by Russian troops and an increasingly powerful militia commanded by the son of Chechnya's pro-Moscow president, Ahmad Kadyrov.

And the violence is now reported to be spreading from Chechnya to neighbouring Ingushetia.

Anna Neistat, from Human Rights Watch said: "Over the last three months, we've documented a number of abductions and disappearances on the territory of Ingushetia as well as several attacks against civilians resulting in either deaths or serious injuries.

"Just like in Chechnya, the perpetrators of these abuses go unpunished and there is no accountability whatsoever."

Bomber

There is concern too that Chechen refugees in Ingushetia have come under strong pressure from the Russian authorities to return home.

That is something which Moscow denies, although it admits it intends to shut down all the refugee camps by the end of the month.

The report was published as a Chechen woman was sentenced to 20 years in prison for attempting to detonate a bomb in a Moscow restaurant last summer.

One bomb-disposal expert was killed when he tried to make the device safe.

Gurgle

Of course they should leave Chechnya, nobody should be forcefully ruled by a foreign power.

But...
If they just pulled out, we would be watching a civil war on Sky news for quite some time. And when that was finally settled, the biggest, bloodthirstiest general ends up on top. Not a good sign for stability in the region.

Whats more, it would pass the message to other separatist groups that blowing shìt up is the way to get what you want.

Theres enough bad blood is the former USSR to make us forget all about Iraq, Israel etc. for a long time if it all really gets heated up.

Manach

Whilest in an ideal world they should never have been in Chechnya or at least the outside world condemn the Russias for their actions on the same level as that of Kosova I voted no.
My reasoning is that if one part of Russia breaks away, what is to stop sucessionist movements spiltering the country completely and plunging the area into chaos. Russian occupation is the lesser of the evils.

Gurgle

Originally posted by Manach:
Russian occupation is the lesser of the evils.

Easy to say from here.
Would you have said the same about Ireland in 1916 ?

Manach

I believe the first thing we did after independence was start into a civil war, which effected the course of this country for generations. In 1916 I would have perfered parlimentary Home Rule rather than fighting.
On the main thread: It is not a good thing that Russia is in control over Chechnya, but a power vacuum might be alot worse, at this stage.

LegacyUser

They can only blame themselves, they got the Russians out a few years, should have been happy with that but instead they start kicking up a rumpus in Dagestan and blowing up apartment blocks in Moscow, don't think the Russians have any choice but to be there, if they leave the rebs will start causing trouble in surrounding states again.

Big Ears

Originally posted by vorbis
yes they should withdraw. for the life of me I don't know what they stood to gain from going in there in the first place.

The age old answer OIL . Chechnya is a region rich in oil and thats the only reason Russia still want Chechnya .

vorbis

didn't know that Big Ears. Still whatever you say about the Americans, the Russians certainly do not have the capability to win any such war remotely cleanly. They can barely pay their troops. I think they should leave. They're systematically demolishing Chechnya without seemingly any progress been made in resotring peace.

arcadegame2004

"They can only blame themselves, they got the Russians out a few years, should have been happy with that but instead they start kicking up a rumpus in Dagestan and blowing up apartment blocks in Moscow, don't think the Russians have any choice but to be there, if they leave the rebs will start causing trouble in surrounding states again." (Bananayoghurt)

Who is "they"? The acts of those Chechens who were stirring up trouble in Dagestan were condemned at the time by President Aslan Maskhadov of Chechnya. Would the term "us" be accurate when referring to the Real IRA in respect of the Omagh bombings? Would it be OK for the UK to invade the Republic of Ireland again because of the Real IRA, or because of murder by the Provisional IRA prior to the GFA? That is an attitude of collective punishment. We should remember our own history.

What proof is there that the Chechens were involved in the 1999 Moscow apartment bombings any way? A political group trying to make a point via terrorism would usually admit to the act, but the Chechens denied involvement back then.

arcadegame2004

Vorbis, Putin doesn't want to "restore peace". His political career was built on the war in Chechnya and he needs it to continue indefinitely so he can show his nationalist credentials.

Wrestlemania

I had a friend serve as a "Merc" for the Russians and to be honest, he did say one thing they can risk it becoming an Islamic State and Also the Oil interests there are to lucrative to withdraw from.

I dont know much about what goes on there in detail but one side is as horrific as the other and with the Chechens they tend to Kidnap quit a lot of Western Oil and Electricity workers...

But to be honest the Russians will always give two fingers to everyone as to be honest they may be a "Capitalist" type regime but the old communist traits have not gone.

But I would rather take the side of the Russians to a Degree than the Chechens as I aswell have seen the horrific head cutting off videos and the flims of blowing up russian bus loads of soldier.

In a nutshell I rather be captured by the Russians than the Chechens.

arcadegame2004

"But I would rather take the side of the Russians to a Degree than the Chechens as I aswell have seen the horrific head cutting off videos and the flims of blowing up russian bus loads of soldier.

In a nutshell I rather be captured by the Russians than the Chechens."

Yes but that's because the Russians control what the outside world gets to see in Chechnya. If you saw the summary executions of civilians by the Russian forces then I wonder would you feel the same?