Dr Paschal Carmody and Skeptics

williamgrogan

I’m surprised that we are not issuing some press release that “capitalises” on this situation. This is a prime opportunity with many examples of individuals being proscribed expensive, dangerous and worthless CAM treatments.

Here we have an example of a qualified doctor supporting CAM. It helps show that just because a few maverick doctors support CAM that this doesn’t lend it credence.

The apparent slowness of his profession to move is also a scandal. In some other thread the point was made that the medical & pharmacy professions should discipline themselves, but they are not or are too slow. Why is the medical profession not striking off other doctors that practice expensive and worthless treatments such as Acupuncture?

Now is the time to call for legislation that bans all untested CAM.

We also have the daft situation that he can carry on "practicing" his CAM artistry but not official medicine.

PS

see Irish Health which has set up a discussion on this here

williamgrogan

Meanwhile North Tipperary County Council has served an enforcement notice on Dr Porter ordering him to stop using a private house for commercial purposes - treating patients

Isn't it pathetic that this is the only legislation that can stop these people?

davros

Originally posted by williamgrogan
I’m surprised that we are not issuing some press release that “capitalises” on this situation.

I have to agree. This is exactly what skeptics organisations the world over say happens when alternative medicine is allowed to flourish unquestioned: the desperate get fleeced and the sick die.

The Minister said there would be an outcry if he tried to ban CAM. There should be an outcry if he doesn't.

Barnowl

Davros, where was the minister's comment that there would be an outcry if he banned CAM?

I wrote to the Irish times following a piece by Eithne Donnellan on May 10th that quoted a Mid Western Health Board spokesperson as saying that the "health board has no authority in respect of alternative therapies". I emphasised that while they may have no legal responsibilities, they have a moral / ethical duty to take the matter seriously and to provide relevant information and guidance to their members and to the public at large. (Unfortunately the IT failed to publish it!).

There are many mainstream professionals who dabble in alternative practices of one sort or another and this is a serious issue that I have tried to raise and emphasise with various professional bodies. Most seem to ignore it. Paschal Carmody and his associates are an obvious example of misguided(?) professionals. At least in this instance the medical profession has responded.

Medical insurance websites don't help either with their promotion of empirically unsupported alternative methods.

The last issue of Skeptical Times discussed Quackery in some detail and the next issue which should be available at the end of June, will have pieces on the Carmody episode and on Maureen Mulligan, a "structural cranial practitioner" whose practice has expanded significantly since her appearance recently on the Late Late Show!

Attempting to combat this stuff is a constant uphill battle that unfortunately will not get any easier in the foreseeable future.

davros

Originally posted by Barnowl
Davros, where was the minister's comment that there would be an outcry if he banned CAM?

In the Irish Times a few days before my last post. I don't have it now, unfortunately. Hope I recalled it correctly at the time - my recollection of the piece is really hazy a couple of weeks later. I'm sure about the outcry bit, but it could have been one of the Minister's officials rather than the Minister.

Do you think journalists would ignore a press release from the ISS? Perhaps they are just waiting for someone to put an opposing view in these sorts of cases.

I wonder how much influence the letters page actually has on journalists or if they even read it.

williamgrogan

RTE 1 news this morning (28-05-04) had about 10 minutes in two segments devoted to an interview with Bernie Gallagher and a Dr O'Sullivan who are involved in a group that represents those conned by Doctors Carmody & Porter.

Apparently they met the Minister of Health last night and "he was shocked" at what he was told.

Bernie's husband died of cancer after giving Dr Carmody €20,000 for bogus treatment. They said they had cured his cancer using light. This scum bag is still free to earn vast amounts of money as there is no legislation to stop him. Can there be a bigger scum bag than someone who cons a person out of their money who is dying from cancer?

The Minister said that legislation which is under consideration for 3 years is expected by the middle of next year to control CAM. We should campaign to ban the practice entirely. The closer the legislation is to an outright ban on fraud the better. Anything else will give it a veneer of respectability. I can see it now in the windows of Chiropractic "Clinics" and Reflexology "Practioners",

"Regulated by the Department of Health."

williamgrogan

Ironic, Dr Tony O'Sullivan who supports the introduction of legislation to protect people against CAM artists, is the Chairman of the Diabetes Federation of Ireland which features a picture of Pat Kenny on one of their opening web page and who is one of the main promotors and supporters of CAM in Ireland.

http://www.diabetesireland.ie/view.asp?ID=1016

Don't these people understand why CAM is spreading?

williamgrogan

Irish Times 18-06-04

Martin must act now

The unprofessional behaviour of Dr Paschal Carmody and the questionable activities of Mr William Porter in their promotion of the healing qualities of photodynamic therapy (PDT) for people who are terminally ill have been well documented in this newspaper. Dr Carmody, whom the Medical Council subsequently found guilty of professional misconduct and struck off the medical register, ran a general medical practice in Co Clare. Both he and Mr Porter, an American doctor who is not registered to practise medicine in the Republic, promoted the "benefits" of PDT in the treatment of a wide range of cancers.

....

Alternative health practitioners must also be regulated in tandem with a new Medical Practitioners Act. And while it would not be right to outlaw specific alternative practices, well crafted and complementary legislation covering both conventional and alternative medicine would ensure an enhanced level of public protection

....

The question must be asked: how many scandals need to be uncovered before the Minister delivers a new Medical Practitioners Act

full article

Here's another question, how do you regulate fraud?

It reminds me of calls some years ago to ban the cults that were "brainwashing" the young people of Ireland. Of course nothing happened for obvious reasons. The French word for a religion is - cult.

davros

Originally posted by williamgrogan
Here's another question, how do you regulate fraud?

The answer was in the article: "complementary legislation"

williamgrogan

Davros, what a brilliant concept.

I can see it now; complementary law, complementary engineering, complementary politics (I think we have that already), complementary eVoting (only accurate to 98%), complementary insurance (you pay a high yearly premium and if anything happens they don’t pay out) etc..

All these complementary ways of doing things wouldn’t work but they could be regulated. Perhaps as a guide we could use the law controlling Homeopathy, i.e. it’s legal provided it has no effect.

I particular like Complementary Engineering – CE for short. Holistic “Engineers” would require no training other than a short correspondent course. They could then build bridges and if they fell down be absolved of blame under the new regulations. They could argue that they fell down because it was god’s will, just like when praying for the sick doesn’t work. Any mathematical analysis of their engineering designs that proved they wouldn’t work could be dismissed on the basis that the analysis itself caused the design to fail.

CE practitioners could also claim that their approach was more “natural” and used the ways of ancient people, i.e. no maths or physics just stick it up and hope it stays up.

Myksyk

I love the idea of the complimentary politics. Can you see the interviews with Pat Kenny.

Pol: I'm campaigning for the closure of all hospitals and the building of new high rise slums in their place to deal with the urban housing problem.

Pat: What? ... Will that work?

Pol: Well Pat, I believe in my soul that it's the right thing to do, I can bring on four people who think its brilliant and has worked for them, and my astrologer is all in favour of it. Outside of that, the plan is synch with the natural energy systems of the universe, beyond the thought flow field of ordinary evidence-based policy decisions.

Pat: Well ... that's alright then...you have my vote.

williamgrogan

I didn't quite follow that, was that a real interview with Pat Kenny or did you make it up?

robindch

Hi -

This just in from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3831931.stm

...and the original article at:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/releases/2004/pr44/en/

But will people pay any attention?

- robin.

williamgrogan

All seems very sensible except for this bit from the WHO web site you linked to ..

Empirical and scientific evidence exists to support the benefits of acupuncture, ........

For instance, the effectiveness of acupuncture, a popular treatment for relieving pain, has been demonstrated both through numerous clinical trials and laboratory experiments. As a result, 90% of pain clinics in the United Kingdom and 70% in Germany include acupuncture as a form of treatment.

Now how do you measure pain? I do not believe that Acupuncture relieves pain, how could it? Sticking pins in non existent "energy channels" cannot do anything, except perhaps cause more pain.

I strongly suspect that over the coming years regulation will come in and help protect the "marks" from hurting themselves but is that good enough? Do we not want them to stop being conned as well?

davros

Originally posted by williamgrogan
I do not believe that Acupuncture relieves pain, how could it?

Quoting from the Skeptic's Dictionary:

Nevertheless, it is possible that sticking needles into the body may have some beneficial effects. The most common claim of success by acupuncture advocates is in the area of pain control. Studies have shown that many acupuncture points are more richly supplied with nerve endings than are the surrounding skin areas. Some research indicates sticking needles into certain points affects the nervous system and stimulates the body's production of natural painkilling chemicals such as endorphins and enkephalins, and triggers the release of certain neural hormones including serotonin. Another theory suggests that acupuncture blocks the transmission of pain impulses from parts of the body to the central nervous system.

williamgrogan

Nevertheless, it is possible that sticking needles into the body may have some beneficial effects. The most common claim of success by acupuncture advocates is in the area of pain control. Studies have shown that many acupuncture points are more richly supplied with nerve endings than are the surrounding skin areas.

OK, so what is being said is that Acupuncture does not work because of the theory behind it but by coincidence that some of the “acupuncture points” contain more nerves than somewhere else.

This is ridiculous. You can pick anything you could possible do, claim that it cures hundreds of ailments and then find that one of them by co-incidence might cause a benefit some of the time.

Let me think one up…………..

OK, I claim I can cure all forms of cancer, heart disease, MS, AIDS, colic and hair loss by slapping people on the head with a wet towel. Now it very well may be the case that slapping you around the head generates some chemical related to healing bruises or is involved in causing the redness that results in getting slapped that also tones up the skin and increases blood supply that helps hair grow. Can we now say, after thousands of other failed clinical studies that slapping someone around the head with a wet towel cures hair loss and in some way valid this new treatment?

No.

Some research indicates sticking needles into certain points affects the nervous system and stimulates the body's production of natural painkilling chemicals such as endorphins and enkephalins, and triggers the release of certain neural hormones including serotonin.

Presumably so would any other injury so as well as acupuncture so would slapping someone around the head with a wet towel which by coincidence would also injure some areas with increased nerve density.

Another theory suggests that acupuncture blocks the transmission of pain impulses from parts of the body to the central nervous system.

And how would it do that?

I mean with hundreds of thousands of Acupuncturists and hundreds of millions of marks (aka “patients”) there would just have to be some tiny little possible connection between all this activity and some perceived improvement, wouldn’t there?

There are no “recognised acupuncture points”, different Acupuncture/Acupressure etc.. CAM artists use different places and different techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised if they stuck needles in just about every part of the body.

Davros, I know you’re just winding me up.

davros

Originally posted by williamgrogan
Davros, I know you’re just winding me up.

No, I'm not
You asked how it could possibly have an effect since energy channels don't exist. I'm just making the point that it could conceivably have an effect, but by a different mechanism.

Do I think acupuncture is useful? No. I don't believe anyone can identify which part, if any, of the practice is effective. And any effect which is there is minor, highly localised and bears absolutely no relation to the claims made for acupuncture.

(Also, it was a chance to quote the Skeptic's Dictionary whose author is speaking to the Society on Thursday this week.)

williamgrogan

IT 06-07-04

Gardai raid premises of doctors offering disputed cancer therapy

A team of up to 40 gardaí, including officers from the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, yesterday raided a number of premises belonging to two doctors in the mid-west.

Backed up by several inspectors from the Irish Medicines Board they seized files, medical equipment and other specimens from properties owned by Dr Paschal Carmody and Dr William Porter in the Killaloe area of Co Clare and the Ballina area of Co Tipperary

and where have you heard this sort of b******t before….

Following the Garda raid yesterday, Dr Porter told The Irish Times it was a scandal that the therapy he offers is not being used on a wider scale in Ireland. He claimed everything was being done to suppress the treatment in Ireland, even though it was an overwhelmingly accepted therapy by the best institutes in the US. He said he had scientific papers which showed that the treatment was effective for up to 19 different types of cancer, including the treatment of deep- seated cancers.

"These studies have been done all over the world. I have full faith in the therapy . . . The people are not being told about the option and that to me is scandalous," he said

full article (you must be subscribed)

Myksyk

I heard that the Clare Champion ran a front page story on this with a full page inside dedicated to it. Will try to access it and report.