The Race for 4th

The Rooster

With the league title wrapped up and relegation issues all sorted, the only bit of excitement left is the race for 4th place, which I think we can all agree is down to Liverpool, Newcastle and Aston Villa. Has anybody got the fixture lists for each of the 3 teams?

I think I'm right in saying that we could easily (its probably very likely) have the following situation for the Liverpool - Newcastle game on the last day:

Liverpool win - Liverpool qualify for CL
Newcastle win - Newcastle qualify for CL
Draw - Aston Villa qualify for CL

That would be tension filled!

Am I also right in thinking that if Villa win their remaining two matches, they'd be guaranteed 5th spot (as at least one of Newky/LP have to drop points), therefore one of Liverpool or Newcastle wouldnt even qualify for the UEFA Cup!

The Rooster

Are you sure? Thats an increase from last year.

I thought only 3 teams qualified for the UEFA Cup. Mboro (for winning league cup), Millwall (for getting furthest in FA Cup) and the team that comes 5th.

Last year the 6th place team made it (Blackburn), but only because LPool won the League Cup. Man City also made it, but that was something to do with Fair Play.

Villain

5th place only is Uefa,

6th place does not give access Uefa Cup

eirebhoy

Originally posted by Big Ears
6th spot guarentees uefa cup .

No, its only 5th.

remaining fixtures:
Birmingham -v- Liverpool
Liverpool -v- Newcastle

Newcastle -v- Wolves
Soton -v- Newcaslte
Liverpool -v- Newcaslte

Soton -v- Villa
Villa -v- Man Utd.

Newcastle have only won twice on the road all season so for them to win their remaining two away matches is asking a lot. Plus they are now without Woodgate and O'Brien for the rest of the season and have Uefa cup to concentrate on. I can't see Liverpool getting more than a draw from Birmingham and I don't think Villa will win their two matches. Liverpool and Newcastle have it in their own hands, Villa have to hope they both slip up. My bet is Villa though.

Horsefumbler

Originally posted by eirebhoy
Newcastle have only won twice on the road all season so for them to win their remaining two away matches is asking a lot.

but that doesn't really mean shit though does it? It's not as if liverpool can relax and think "well they have a poor away record so we should win this".This game means everything to both teams. In fact liverpool may find themselves under more pressure at home than away coz of fans booing etc. So it's gonna be totally even game.

Villain

Hard to see it finishing different than:

4th-Liverpool
5th-Villa
6th-Newcastle

Space Coyote

Yep thats how I think it'll finish too.

4th. Pool (will draw with or beat Birmingham and will beat Newcastle)
5th. Villa (are on a good run, confidence is high)
6th. Newc (are banjaxed with injuries and under-performing players)

eirebhoy

Originally posted by Horsefumbler
but that doesn't really mean shit though does it?

Of course it does. It means they aren't very good playing away from home. Winning 2 away games is the form of a team fighting against relegation, not for 4th spot.

jesus_thats_gre

If Liverpool can perform that same way as they did on Saturday I am confident they can get 4th place without relying on anyone else.

remaining fixtures:
Birmingham -v- Liverpool
Liverpool -v- Newcastle

Newcastle -v- Wolves
Soton -v- Newcaslte
Liverpool -v- Newcaslte

Soton -v- Villa
Villa -v- Man Utd.


Its nigh on impossible to accurately predict the outcomes of those matches at this stage of the season. I personally don't think Villa have a hope in hell of beating United.

I think Liverpool will beat Newcastle purely on Newcastles away form and it being Liverpool's final home match.

Southampton will go all the way with Villa and Newcastle. Could both be draws.

Birmingham could beat Liverpool but I am not sure.

Newcastle versus can go anyway. Wolves are relegated and may feel they have a point to prove, or they just just role over!

Dont be at yourself

As a matter of interest, if Chelsea were to win the Champions League this year, is the Premier League awarded an extra place? I'm pretty sure it used to be like that, is it still the case now? It's solve everything!

cruiserweight

What happens if Newcastle win the UEFA cup?

I honestly think it will finish
4th Liverpool
5th Villa
6th Newcastle

Liverpool only have to win their last two games, against a Birmingham side with nothing really left to play for and Newcastle who can not win away from home. Plus Bobby Robson has never won at Anfield with any team.

Villa are on a great run and if the pick up 6 points in the remaining two games have a great chance. However I think thath they may only pick up 4 with a win against Man Utd on the last day of the season and a draw away to Southampton.

For Newcastle things have gone from bad to worse Woodgate injured(they have only won 2 games without him this season),Dyer injured,Jenas injured,Bellamy injured and O'Brien suspended. Away to Marseill on Thursday with possibility of ET and penalties,home game against Wolves, who have nothing to lose, on Sunday,away to Southampton on Wednesday, away to Liverpool on Saturday. At best 4 points.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by NekkidBibleMan
As a matter of interest, if Chelsea were to win the Champions League this year, is the Premier League awarded an extra place?

No, if Chelsea win the CL its still 4 places for the premiership.

Originally posted by cruiserweight
What happens if Newcastle win the UEFA cup?

They qualify for the UEFA cup.:)

redspider

Yes, 4th spot is the only interesting thing in the english league now. Even Arsenal fans are already watching what happens.

Its nearly impossible to call any of these games with any level of certainty. Going by the form book would sem to indicate Liv, New, Villa but football has an uncanny knack of usually throwing up a few unusual results, so it could go any way.

Any combination will not be a surprise to me. Liverpool could lose their remaining two games, especially as they have been blowing hot and cold all season and after a win a draw is likely. A big failure under pressure against Newcastle is also possible, given the scenario last season against Chelsea in a similar winner takes all match.

Newcastle have also been hot and cold all season and have a tendency to draw matches. Much will depend on Shearer and Bellamy.

Villa have had the luxury of having no pressure on them. They have already exceeded their expectations so cannot "lose".

So much will depend on Southampton, Wolves and Man U. It would be ironic if Liverpool ended up getting a favour from Man U. What is essential for both Liverpool and Newcastle is the Uefa place at least as going below that means yet more money lost.

All very interesting, but whatever the outcome, I think Houllier should go.
All this stress cant be doing his heart any good .....

mike65

Can whoever finnishes 6th (unless its Newcatle and they win UEFA Cup) get into UEFA Cup via the Inter Toto?

Mike.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by mike65
Can whoever finnishse 6th (unless its Newcatle and they win UEFA Cup) get into UEFA Cup via the Inter Toto?

yeah, but a lot of teams don't accept the intertoto invitation because of he dates.

Villain

Originally posted by eirebhoy
yeah, but a lot of teams don't accept the intertoto invitation because of he dates.

Yea O'Leary stated that Villa wouldn't be going through the Inter Toto.

celticfc

I'd love for Villa to do it, with 2 wins & I'd say they'd get it.

Space Coyote

Bolton should apply for the Intertoto spot. Aren't they 7th at the moment.

Is there still a 'Fair Play' spot in the Uefa Cup for Prem teams ? That is/was the biggest load of rubbish ever.

AngelofFire

Howcome blackburn were able to enter the uefa cup last year when they finished 6th

eirebhoy

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Howcome blackburn were able to enter the uefa cup last year when they finished 6th

The English league get 3 UEFA cup spots. 1 for the FA cup, 1 for the league cup and 1 for the 5th place. If a team who have already qualified for Europe win the league cup the UEFA cup spot is given to 6th place.

cruiserweight

Can whoever finnishes 6th (unless its Newcatle and they win UEFA Cup) get into UEFA Cup via the Inter Toto?

I was under the impression that the English FA had already declined their Intergalactic Cup places!!!!!

The Rooster

Blackburn qualified last year because Liverpool won the League Cup.

Every club in the Premier League has declined to enter the InterToto Cup.

I find it strange the way the English clubs completely belittle the InterToto Cup. Most would give anything to qualify for the UEFA Cup, but when given this opportunity to get in via the back door they turn it down! Bizarrely I think some of it is down to the stupid name, as I think every other country has no problem entering teams.

I think it was Bordeaux a couple of years ago who went all the way to the final after getting through via the InterToto and Villareal this year have come through the InterToto.

And I don't agree with teams saying that it hinders their pre-season. All teams are playing friendlies at the time of the Inter toto, so why not treat the cup as pre-season friendlies. If you lose, so what, and if you win you've the bonus of possibly making the UEFA Cup.

Bobby Robson has never won at Anfield! Interesting. What a time it would be to break that duck!

I think its one team in Europe gets through via Fair Play. I think six countries are selected that have the best FP records. Then one team (who has not already qualified for Europe) is picked from each country based on their FP record, and then a draw is made to see which one of the six teams selected gets the wild card entry to the UEFA Cup.

I have to admit I find it very hard to get anyway excited about the UEFA Cup. It would be so much a better and more worthwhile competition if the winners were guaranteed a CL place the following season.

cruiserweight

It would be so much a better and more worthwhile competition if the winners were guaranteed a CL place the following season.

Most recent winners have been in the CL the following year anyway, Liverpool, Porto, Galatsaray, Feyenoord etc.

If the winners were garuanteed a CL place then I feel that the UEFA cup would be degraded further.

The Rooster

Well as a Liverpool fan, I would get no consolation from getting into the UEFA Cup. In fact I'd much prefer them to come 6th rather than 5th, as it would guarantee the end of GH.

And when they lost to Marseilles this year, I could hardly have cared less. Whereas if winning the Cup guaranteed entrance to the CL, then I would have been very disappointed.

I don't think it would be belitte the UEFA Cup at all. In fact it would greatly add to it. It would give teams that otherwise might have no hope of getting into the CL, a chance to do it (e.g. Villareal). Its not like its a secret that the UEFA Cup is the secondary competition in Europe.

cruiserweight

I am also a Liverpool fan and I would have liked to have won the UEFA cup just to have won it.

As a competition winning it should be reward enough and dangling a carrot of CL football should not be a reward. I doubt if it would add anything to games. Look at the Worthington Cup, it has the reward of Europe if teams win it but many clubs play weakened teams.

The Rooster

I think the League Cup would suffer hugely if Europe was not a reward.

cruiserweight

Originally posted by The Rooster
I think the League Cup would suffer hugely if Europe was not a reward.

Agreed it would suffer more, but at the end of the day it is still a trophy to be won. Winning the UEFA cup should be incentive enough, I do not remember any club playing a seriously weakened side in the UEFA cup where it was a competitive match!

Space Coyote

But cw and T R ... if Liverpool did win the Uefa Cup this year then we would never see the back of Mr. Houllier ! So it's for the good of the club and the future that the 'Pool won nothing this season (unfortunately).

I have wanted him out since x-mas '02, it pains me greatly to still see GH at the helm, mumbling away to himself, red scarf, arms folded, fat head..."maybe I'll try Djimi behind the front two", "hmm I wonder if Michael can play right-back" etc etc.

I don't use the word 'hate' a lot, but I really hate that man. HATE. :dunno:

cruiserweight

He will still be there next season. But it is a catch 22. If Liverpool are in the CL then we can attract new players e.ge Cisse, Mexes(who said he would sign if we were in the CL),Barton,SWP etc, but Houllier is guaranted a job.

If we do not qualify then the pressure will come on him a bit more, but chances are he will still be there, and top quality players will not want to sign.

jonno

I read an interesting article somewhere that looked at the flip side of that catch 22 cw. If liverpool do make the champions league it would also give them a better foundation to look for not only new playing staff but a new manager as well. Someone like Mourinho wouldn't think about a job at Liverpool (IMO) if they were still a UEFA Cup side next season. So it's not all about buying players.

As regards GH's job. I'm not overly worried about him being in charge next season. The only flaw I find with him is that he is too easy with the players and not harsh enough like he was in the meeting of players and staff before the Utd game where he surprisingly said that they were not doing enough hard work on the field. If he started doing this more often and actually inspiring the players rather than patting them on the back after been beaten by a mid table side

cruiserweight

With regards GH I would have no problem with him being Liverpool manager next season. The team has improved since he took over. The main reason that there have been such high expectations are because he has created them.

Only two seasons ago Liverpool finished second with a points total that would have won them the league most other years, and Liverpool were knocked out in th QF of the CL.

The two previous managers won one FA cup and that was with a lot of players that Daglaish left behind. Houllier has won 1FA cup,2 league cups,1 UEFA cup,1 Charity shield,1 Super Cup.More than SAF won in his first few years IN Old Trafford.

As long as problems are addressed I see successful times ahead. Those problems being need more goals(Cisse has been bought pretty much,Liverpool are linked with Smith,Heskey being sold),no right sided midfielder(tried Cheryou,Smicer,Diouf,Murphy,Finnan,Daio are trying to buy SWP apparently), defensice trio are getting to old and slow(may be buying Mexes and Barton, also have tried Carragher,Biscan and Traore and CB). So these problems have been identified and mistakes have been made but at least attempts are being made to fix them.

Also the players seem to like and respect GH and what message would that send to them if he were fired

Space Coyote

The bottom line is that Liverpool FC have not won the league in 14 years.

Long time Liverpool fans need the league title. I (and many other fans I would think) cannot see us winning the Premiership as long as GH is in charge. The club as a whole were well ahead of Arsenal and Chelsea in development when GH took sole charge. Look how far behind we are now.
AW has done wonders at Arsenal in the time he has been there. They are lightyears ahead of Liverpool now. So are Chelsea...for different rea$on$ of course.

If David Moores really loves Liverpool FC and really wants a bright successful future for the club, then he either has to get rid of Houllier in the summer, or bite the bullet and sell his majority shareholding in the club. After all, it's been 14 years of HIS chairmanship that have been so embarrassingly unsuccessful.

Big Ears

Originally posted by Space Coyote
But cw and T R ... if Liverpool did win the Uefa Cup this year then we would never see the back of Mr. Houllier ! So it's for the good of the club and the future that the 'Pool won nothing this season (unfortunately).

I have wanted him out since x-mas '02, it pains me greatly to still see GH at the helm, mumbling away to himself, red scarf, arms folded, fat head..."maybe I'll try Djimi behind the front two", "hmm I wonder if Michael can play right-back" etc etc.

I don't use the word 'hate' a lot, but I really hate that man. HATE. :dunno:

Correct me if im wrong but 3 months into a season u want a manager sacked after him winning the League cup the Uefa cup and the F.A. cup the year before, plus the charity sheild the year after those . ( dont get me wrong now its obvious he should go ) But it would be stupid to sack a manager after achieving that such a lttile time ago . But now its been 3/4 years and it looks like he wont win anything again so sacking him now wouldnt be so crazy . ( it wouldnt have been crazy last summer either . )

cruiserweight

The club as a whole were well ahead of Arsenal and Chelsea in development when GH took sole charge.

Was Houllier not put in charge in 1998 when Arsenal won the double. In the time since he has done more than the previous two managers, and they were not fired.

The team is going through a bad time for the past 18 months and is suffering from a lack of confidence. I believe that the team is heading in the right direction overall and the premiership will come eventually.

Space Coyote

To Big Ears,
Yes that is correct. I demand and expect only the best. It's the league title that matters. Cups for show, league's for a pro.

Where did I hear that expression? :dunno:

Space Coyote

originally posted by cruiserweight
he has done more than the previous two managers, and they were not fired.

That is why I said Moores has to look at himself, and his chairmanship of the club. It's he who hired these losers. None of them have come close to winning the league title. Two seasons ago we finished with 80 pts, 3 ahead of Utd, 7 behind Arsenal afaik. That was very acceptable, but we nosedived from then. Houllier said last season was a glitch, this season we will finish with even less points than last !

There is a mural in Anfield of past successful managers - Houllier, Evans and Souness are nowhere to be seen. And rightly so.

cruiserweight

But Liverpool as a club has a policy of not firing managers. They have only fired one in their history!!!!

Patience is the key and results will follow. Remember when Houllier took over Liverpool would not have stood a chance of winning three trophies in a season,playing CL football or finishing second in the league.

Space Coyote

There was a time when I would have agreed with what ye say there, but my patience has all but evaporated at this stage. I hear Ranieiri might be looking for a job !

Thanx 4 The Fish

Hopefully Liverpool can continue a winning run and continue winning until the end of the season. Would still like to see Houllier gone by the end of the season though.