300 immigrants from East arrive on Enlargement Day1

arcadegame2004

While strongly in favour of enlargement of the EU, I am concerned at the fact that Ireland and the UK are the only Western EU member states that will not be imposing controls on immigration from the 10 new EU member states, even though the Treaty of Accession allows EU-15 states to impose such restrictions until 2009.

In today's newspapers there are reports that at least 300 people from the new 10 EU member states have arrived here since YESTERDAY alone. Now 300 in one day, if continued for the rest of the year, equals around 100,000 people arriving in Ireland in the next year! Such a figure is clearly not on. I would have no problem with allowing freedom of movemebt between us and the new EU member states if ALL of the original EU-15 member states also allow such freedom of movement. Apparently, 150 buses pakced with Eastern Europeans also arrived in Britain yesterday. Irish immigration-officials reportedly said that the UK had been "flooded" and that they were taken aback by the numbers arriving in Ireland, being far higher than expected.

What do you all think? If the numbers reach tens of thousands coming to Ireland in the next year, should we and Britain join the rest of the EU in imposing restrictions on immigration from Eastern Europe?

mike65

/me places hand on forehead and sighs......


BBC Radio Five Live parodied this sort of mentality this morning as the morning news programme sent a reporter out to Victoria station to see "the Hoards" who would arrive from "the East" as The Sun said they surely would...needless to say the place was pretty much deserted.

Mike.

alleepally

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
While strongly in favour of enlargement of the EU, I am concerned at the fact that Ireland and the UK are the only Western EU member states that will not be imposing controls on immigration from the 10 new EU member states, even though the Treaty of Accession allows EU-15 states to impose such restrictions until 2009.

In today's newspapers there are reports that at least 300 people from the new 10 EU member states have arrived here since YESTERDAY alone. Now 300 in one day, if continued for the rest of the year, equals around 100,000 people arriving in Ireland in the next year! Such a figure is clearly not on. I would have no problem with allowing freedom of movemebt between us and the new EU member states if ALL of the original EU-15 member states also allow such freedom of movement. Apparently, 150 buses pakced with Eastern Europeans also arrived in Britain yesterday. Irish immigration-officials reportedly said that the UK had been "flooded" and that they were taken aback by the numbers arriving in Ireland, being far higher than expected.

What do you all think? If the numbers reach tens of thousands coming to Ireland in the next year, should we and Britain join the rest of the EU in imposing restrictions on immigration from Eastern Europe?

Lets' not get carried away and extrapolate figures from one day out to a whole year and play the doomsday scenario.

I don't know the history myself, but were we restricted when we joined the EU. I'm not comfortable with all these lovely sentiments being expressed in front of world cameras yesterday and then we tell people who want a better life that the door is still closed.

mike65

This sums up my feelings (from the Belfast Telegraph)

Indeed, the Republic of Ireland is a role model for the accession states. A country which was the poorest of the new entrants in 1973 has flourished thanks in large measure to the benevolence of Brussels.

As a result of phenomenal growth in the 1990s, the Republic now enjoys one of the highest GDP per capita purchasing power ratios of any state in the EU. The tide of emigration has been reversed and Ireland would suffer from a severe labour shortage were it not for immigrant workers.

The situation is mirrored in Northern Ireland where unemployment is at a record low. The local economy - in particular sectors such as the health service and hospitality - rely increasingly on the input of foreign workers.

Amid much alarmist talk about a flood of new arrivals in Britain from the eastern bloc, a sense of proportion must be maintained. The reality is that with its birth rate falling, the UK urgently needs new workers.

On the trade front, European expansion will produce a much bigger market, both for exporters and importers. This is being seen both as a threat and an opportunity, and Northern Ireland will have to raise its game to retain market share.

Politically, opinion in the UK remains sharply divided over the virtues of Europe's expanding role. The debate will come to a head in the promised referendum, but even those with reservations about a European president and foreign minister must accept that it would be madness to leave the club.

Fifty years after World War Two, modern Europe is still evolving but the rapprochement that has developed between states that were once at war should be an example to the wider world. Enlargement will undoubtedly produce new challenges but the concept of a Europe finally at peace with itself must be cherished.

Mike.

gandalf

What only 300 !!! And did they differenciate between tourists, students, business people, diplomats and immigrants or not. I wonder how many Irish people went on holiday to Spain yesterday, I don't see them closing their borders up now do I.

Talk about scaremongering claptrap. We have a need for workers, these people will fill that need. As for immigration the government needs to sort out a proper strategy to allow those seeking assylum here a mechanism where their claims are processed quickly so they are either deported or allowed to contribute to the ecomony quicker thats where the real problem lies.

Jesus some people seem to forget that its just only over 20 years ago that people were leaving this Island in their droves to find work elsewhere.

Gandalf.

arcadegame2004

Alleepally, I agree with you that we should first wait and see what happens and should not extrapilate for the whole year based on one day. But I feel that IF my concerns are borne out (which would mean 1 million arriving here in the next ten years!), then we will have no responsible choice but to do as I suggested, like every other EU state except the UK. May I add that my preference would be for ALL EU states to allow automatic freedom of movement from Day 1. In the absence of this, I feel that Ireland would be forced to bear a disproportion amount of the burden of cheap-labour, which does worry me, since Easterners' will definitely work for far less than we are prepared to work for.

"I don't know the history myself, but were we restricted when we joined the EU.".

Yes. Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Greece also had to accept controls of freedom of movement for a transition period after entry. I believe in the case of the latter three the period was 10 years.

alleepally

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Alleepally, I agree with you that we should first wait and see what happens and should not extrapilate for the whole year based on one day. But I feel that IF my concerns are borne out (which would mean 1 million arriving here in the next ten years!), then we will have no responsible choice but to do as I suggested, like every other EU state except the UK. May I add that my preference would be for ALL EU states to allow automatic freedom of movement from Day 1. In the absence of this, I feel that Ireland would be forced to bear a disproportion amount of the burden of cheap-labour, which does worry me, since Easterners' will definitely work for far less than we are prepared to work for.

"I don't know the history myself, but were we restricted when we joined the EU.".

Yes. Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Greece also had to accept controls of freedom of movement for a transition period after entry. I believe in the case of the latter three the period was 10 years.

I didn't know that arcadegame, thanks. The flag raising ceremony now seems a sham doesn't it. I guess there won't be any restrictions placed on greedy property developers and "2nd home owners" raping the lands that have just joined and pricing locals out of the property market?

Redleslie

This is the 2nd poll in 3 days from this person about floods of foreign spongers. At this rate there'll be 243.333 polls like these by this time next year. Ignore list, here you come. Keep Sand company.

arcadegame2004

"I guess there won't be any restrictions placed on greedy property developers and "2nd home owners" raping the lands that have just joined and pricing locals out of the property market?"

Actually Alleepally, the answer is that there are. The new member states are also imposing a ban on Westerners buying up land in Eastern Europe for 10-20 years. I am simply making the point that while free movement of people from East to West should be allowed if ALL EU-15 members apply it, it is unfair to only have 2 EU states from the West opening their borders to these new countries. If we are going to do it, the rest of the EU-15 must do so also.

alleepally

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
"I guess there won't be any restrictions placed on greedy property developers and "2nd home owners" raping the lands that have just joined and pricing locals out of the property market?"

Actually Alleepally, the answer is that there are. The new member states are also imposing a ban on Westerners buying up land in Eastern Europe for 10-20 years. I am simply making the point that while free movement of people from East to West should be allowed if ALL EU-15 members apply it, it is unfair to only have 2 EU states from the West opening their borders to these new countries. If we are going to do it, the rest of the EU-15 must do so also.

Does this apply to someone wanting to buy a second home for example?

But I do agree that all members open their borders and if they do not then we should use our voice in Europe to ensure they do but I believe our borders should remain open.

[Addition]

I found this on the europa site. It's unlikely then that we shall experience a huge influx.


A series of studies of likely immigration from Central and Eastern Europe suggests that it will be on a limited scale, and mostly confined to regions bordering the new member states. The more economic growth is secured in those countries, the less attractive it will be for workers to seek employment in the other EU member states.

In the present EU, only 2% of the population live and work in a country other than their home country. People are reluctant to leave their home country, family and friends unless they have special reasons or circumstances force them. The crucial factors are individual prospects, political stability and the outlook for economic growth and better living conditions in the home country. Moreover, the demographic trends in many EU countries, where society is ageing and the need for skilled labour in certain sectors will make free movement of workers increasingly desirable in the future, to ensure that the economy continues to perform well.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

isolde

Yea, read somewhere recently that when Spain joined the EU there was a much much lower level of emigration to other EU member states than expected due to the economic growth occurring in Spain itself.

Lump

Lets be honest, ireland would have been fairly fucked over the years if countries had limited us going into them, america, austrialia, etc etc.


John

arcadegame2004

Yes Lump, but you can't compare a tiny country like Ireland to a massive continent like North America or Australia, especially the former in economic terms.

arcadegame2004

I will withdraw my objections if the rest of the EU-15 also open their borders to the East.

Lump

Why are people so worried about the influx? It's just going to add more competition in the work place. Maybe the lazy irish people will actually start doing some work. It's not that people coming in will be cheaper to hire, as a result on minimum wage etc. I think it'll better for the country. In my opinion Irish people in the work place are lazy and productivity is low. Maybe this'll be a kick in the ass for some people.

Saying that I don't agree if loads of people are going to come in and claim benefit. However there are lots of Irish people that claim benefit due to not wanting to work in tesco etc.


John

Imposter

Originally posted by Lump
Why are people so worried about the influx? It's just going to add more competition in the work place. Maybe the lazy irish people will actually start doing some work. It's not that people coming in will be cheaper to hire, as a result on minimum wage etc. I think it'll better for the country. In my opinion Irish people in the work place are lazy and productivity is low. Maybe this'll be a kick in the ass for some people.

They will be cheaper to hire for jobs which require further education. The problem there is that the minimum wage in Ireland is just that a minimum wage for all jobs in all industries and not a minumum wage which is defined by the job you do or the level of training you need to do that job.

Saying that I don't agree if loads of people are going to come in and claim benefit. However there are lots of Irish people that claim benefit due to not wanting to work in tesco etc.

Ireland and the UK have put in restrictions which stop this.

On other points some countries are allowing potential immigrants apply for work visas. This is their solution to controling the immigration. So it's not completely right to say they are not allowing any immigrants from the new members in.

If all countries opened their borders there would be serious problems. Countries like Germany, Austria and Italy to a smaller degree would be flooded with immigrants due to their proximity to the new member states. This is not the same issue as in Ireland as people who come to Ireland generally cut most of their ties from their home country, while in Ireland.

halkar

I don't understand why EU was divided on this matter with other states putting restrictions on the immigrants and UK & Ireland not. We should have followed the rest or they should have joined us. Only time will show how this will work out. We do need workers but being a small country if we are flooded it will only cause more trouble than do any good.
I welcome them here and maybe finally we will see property prices going down after all

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
If we are going to do it, the rest of the EU-15 must do so also.

I disagree.

We - like every other EU15 member - were given the choice of what we wanted to do. As we saw other nations change their minds, etc. we still had the choice of what we wanted to do.

We - or more correctly, our government - made that choice, freely and openly. They made a choice which only one other nation (our neighbour to the East) made.....to pose no "incoming" restrictions on day 1, but to pose some "internal" restrictions (i.e. we may let you in, but you may not get quite everything an EU15 member would get).

We did exactly as every other EU15 nation did. We made our own choice as to which level we wished to pitch our restrictions at.

To suggest that because we chose differently that all others should be compelled to do as we did is farcical. At best, we can resonably suggest that our government did not make the wisest choice when they chose not to follow the rest of EU15 in half-closing its borders to these new states....but I can understand their reasons for making that decision.

Ultimately, I would also suggest we consider this : consider how much of a benefit will Ireland get if our openness ends up working to our advantage - that we establish ourselves as a "preferable partner" sort of state to many of these emerging nations. We can go there and help them build their countries, and they can come here and help make ours better, and we can build better and better relations with them while the rest of EU15 complains about how unfriendly those new member-states are subsequent to them having a door slammed in their face.

Yes, its a risk. It may not pay off. But Ireland may be doing one of the smartest things imaginable in terms of getting well in with these new, emerging economies that have joined the fold. The only problem is that in this modern day, people mostly want the McSolution, and aren't willing to consider that the best solution may involve some pain and suffering along a longer path....let alone consider supporting such an idea.

Nope...generally it seems to be a case of "look down the road. Is the first thing to change good or bad? Well, thats obviously an indicator of how it will all end."

People want to hide from the "looming problem" of immigration today, because if 300 come today, thats a million a year. Hell, they'll have a majority in the country before I turn 40. My god...close the gates. CLOSE THE GATES!!!!!

You know...if you guys applied the same logic to Ireland when we joined the EU (EEC, more correctly)...you'd
probably have concluded that our nation would be almost entirely depopulated from increased immigration in a comparable timeframe.....

jc

MrPudding

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I will withdraw my objections if the rest of the EU-15 also open their borders to the East.

Thank God. I will get straight on to the heads of state. I'm sure that when they realise all they have to do to get you to withdraw your objection is change thier immigration policy they will jump ayt the chance. I was talking to a few of them yesterday and your objection was really high on thier list of worries. Yeah really. It was up there will international terrorism and the state of their economies. Well they will sleep better tonight I'm sure.

MrP

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

arcadegame2004

Daveirl, that wouldn't seem that many if all Eu-15 states were opening their borders to these people, since then they would naturally head to Austria, Germany and Italy. It is just not on for Ireland and the UK to be the ONLY countries allowing this. It automatically means that those wanting to emigrate to the EU-15, will, in the majority of cases, have no choice but to come here or the UK. That could have a major affect on the Irish labour market, in terms of Irish jobs lost ot those willing to accept sweatshop-pay. The minimum-wage isn't really enforced in this country, as there are hardly any inspectors charged with enforcement, but what is pittance-pay for an Irish person is generous from the Easterners' viewpoint (being far higher than even they earn on average). I hope the Irish Government will keep its promise to the Irish people that IF a huge influx come that threatens to have the effects mentioned above that they will exercise their rights under the Accession Treaties to introduce immigration-controls. This will give the Eastern countries 10 years or so to close some of the economic-gap with the EU-15 and thus mean less immigration when the restrictions would be finally lifted. The Governments of the new EU members may come to rue the day that they were allowed freedom of movement if it results in a brain-drain from their countries and actual economic decline. May I remind some who seem to be forgetten the following fact - some of these countries are actually even further behind where we were in 1973 so the comparison by some with the fact that there was not mass-migration to mainland Europe after 1973 are not necessarily comparing like with like.

mike65

Hmmm if Easties come here to work for less than the minimum wage how the f*ck are they going to put bread on the table, in the flat they have to rent bearing in mind the cost of living in this country is vastly higher than Poland et al?

Mike.

Ajnag

What the hell?, its not eighteenth century Ireland where immigration is pernament.The eastern state are only 3 hours away by plane, and for fec all too for the cost of a ticket.People from the eastern states for the most part will come work, make some cash and bring it home.That is the most likely scenario.Did floods of Irish imigratants displace the english?.How many returned, after a couple of year stints.And heres the best bit, among other things Irelands construction Industry flourished from Knowledge gained in England, Knowledge gained in Ireland will be of Immense value to the eastern states in the future, and frankly why would they bother staying, when eventually their homes will be more welcoming, and just as prosperous.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
In today's newspapers there are reports that at least 300 people from the new 10 EU member states have arrived here since YESTERDAY alone. Now 300 in one day, if continued for the rest of the year, equals around 100,000 people arriving in Ireland in the next year!

Two things.

Yesterday I had no products to sell, today I do. Today I sell 300 products. It's called pent-up demand. See any comparison?

10 countries x (1 president, 1 prime minister, 1 foreign minister, 3 spouses, 3 personal assitants, 9 administrative assitants, 12 security personnel) = 300 hundred people. And they all went back on their official planes on Saturday night, complete with complimentary bottles of Irish Whiskey, black pudding and inflatable shamrocks.

Ajnag

Originally posted by Victor
And they all went back on their official planes on Saturday night, complete with complimentary bottles of Irish Whiskey, black pudding and inflatable shamrocks.

Fecckin spongers Oh well guess we cant get the new cancer ward now.

rde

Daveirl, that wouldn't seem that many if all Eu-15 states were opening their borders to these people, since then they would naturally head to Austria, Germany and Italy. It is just not on for Ireland and the UK to be the ONLY countries allowing this. It automatically means that those wanting to emigrate to the EU-15, will, in the majority of cases, have no choice but to come here or the UK.

You seem convinced that they won't want to work in a country that offers work permits. Why is that?

That could have a major affect on the Irish labour market, in terms of Irish jobs lost ot those willing to accept sweatshop-pay. The minimum-wage isn't really enforced in this country, as there are hardly any inspectors charged with enforcement, but what is pittance-pay for an Irish person is generous from the Easterners' viewpoint (being far higher than even they earn on average)

Let me know if I got this wrong: you think they're going to come over here, happy to work for €2/hour, then of the €100 or so they get in a week, spend €200 on rent, €50 on food, send €50 home to the three guys left in the country and spend the rest on entertainment?

And as a matter of interest: have you tried counting the number of 'help wanted' signs around Dublin city lately?

Hobbes

How many came on day 2? 3? 4?

Also while they may get work here with more money the cost of living is insane compared to their country.

If I was you I would be more worried about the jobs moving to their country as the companies wouldn't have to pay as much money.

mike65

Originally posted by Hobbes
How many came on day 2? 3? 4?

Also while they may get work here with more money the cost of living is insane compared to their country.

If I was you I would be more worried about the jobs moving to their country as the companies wouldn't have to pay as much money.

In 10 years all the big IT and Pharmas wil be operating major investments out of eastern Europe and we.....we will hopefully have realised this and continued to move up the food chain.

Mike.

arcadegame2004

LOL I don't think the Government ministers are included in the figures.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Greece also had to accept controls of freedom of movement for a transition period after entry. I believe in the case of the latter three the period was 10 years.

I've never heard of any restrictions against Ireland on the movement of people (any links?). Anyway, it would have been moot as (a) we only spoke english (b) we had free movement to the UK anyway.

France had restrictions on Spainish and Portugese immigrants for the first five years or so - but abandonded them after 6 months.

seamus

As a matter of interest - someone posted recently about an Estonian friend, and what he should do when the new states joined.

How many of those 300 are people who were already here, just made themselves legally known? How many of those 300 are family of those already here, who were previously not allowed enter the country?

There's no point in echoing what everyone else has said.

gandalf

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
LOL I don't think the Government ministers are included in the figures.

Well can you prove thats not the case. Or can you give us a breakdown on who these people are or what the purpose was of their visit. Have they already been in residence in Ireland?

Maybe you should contact the newspaper and ask them for this breakdown?

Gandalf.

PHB

Well, if 300 on the day, means a total of 10950 in a year.

If i live for 40 more years, it'll be 438,000.
That'll be nearly a 1/8th of the population.

Jesus christ, BLOCK THE PORTS

Victor

Originally posted by PHB
Well, if 300 on the day, means a total of 10950 in a year.

300*365=109,500

mike65

Well its been a month now, anyone seen any hoards of Johnny Easternsers who were'nt here already?

Mike.

sceptre

Originally posted by mike65
Well its been a month now, anyone seen any hoards of Johnny Easternsers who were'nt here already?

Mike.

My new milkman looks a little foreign with the big pasty face on him. Talks funny too. Might be from west Clare though.

Originally posted by mike65
Well its been a month now, anyone seen any hoards of Johnny Easternsers who were'nt here already?

Mike.

A local agency here has brought in 25 or so from Poland in the last month,7 of which work in a local restaurant all for a little above the minimum wage.
Anecodotally I was speaking to the manager of that agency who is just back from poland having had people flock to interviews he set up there.
One lady broke down crying when told how much she was going to earn in Ireland ( the minimum wage...) and she said it is too much ...
The same agency is expecting to bring in 100's more in the next couple of months to do jobs which Irish people do not want to do for that money or probably twice that.

mike65

Originally posted by Earthman

One lady broke down crying when told how much she was going to earn in Ireland ( the minimum wage...) and she said it is too much ...

Just wait till she buys milk and bread for the first time....she'll be crying then.

Mike.

alleepally

Originally posted by Earthman
A local agency here has brought in 25 or so from Poland in the last month,7 of which work in a local restaurant all for a little above the minimum wage.
Anecodotally I was speaking to the manager of that agency who is just back from poland having had people flock to interviews he set up there.
One lady broke down crying when told how much she was going to earn in Ireland ( the minimum wage...) and she said it is too much ...
The same agency is expecting to bring in 100's more in the next couple of months to do jobs which Irish people do not want to do for that money or probably twice that.

I wish them all the best here and hope that whatever they manage to earn and save here can help their families back home. I also hope employers will treat them with respect and don't exploit them.

Originally posted by mike65
Just wait till she buys milk and bread for the first time....she'll be crying then.

Mike.

He told me they've discovered LidL:D

alleepally

If anyone gets stuck isn't there some law which states a person can go into any shop and request free milk, potatoes and bread. I heard that somewhere and don't know if it's an urban myth.

Victor

Originally posted by alleepally
If anyone gets stuck isn't there some law which states a person can go into any shop and request free milk, potatoes and bread. I heard that somewhere and don't know if it's an urban myth.

Urban myth. You could wander along to your Community Welfare Officer to get some financial support, but citizens of +10 countries aren't entitled to such benefits yet.

Originally posted by Earthman
One lady broke down crying when told how much she was going to earn in Ireland ( the minimum wage...) and she said it is too much ...

They obviously didn't tell her what rent is like.

MadsL

Despite all the scaremongering by the likes of *cough* certain people and the Irish Sun, I appears that the 'flood' never came despite 'the floodgates' being open. Even our fúhrer has admitted this today, opening a conference on racism of all things..(interesting timing)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0609/racism.html

mike65

I thought this thread was due a bump when I read this thin the Sunday Times

EU migrants flee Ireland’s cost of living by Andrew Bushe


MORE than 32,000 workers from European Union accession states have arrived in Ireland since enlargement on May 1 but many appear to have subsequently left the country after failing to find employment.

Reports from those returning to their home countries suggest that a key factor in their decision was the high cost of living in Ireland, which is significantly greater than accession states, even when higher wages are taken into account.



Seamus Brennan, the minister for social and family affairs, said 32,405 people from the 10 new EU member countries had been issued with personal public service numbers (PPSN) since May. The enlargement gives citizens of the accession states the right to seek work in the republic but they require a PPSN to take up employment or apply for social welfare.

The bulk of new immigrants have come from Poland, Lithuania and Latvia, which collectively accounted for 72% of those who sought PPSNs to the end of August. Ireland has proven to be particularly popular as a destination for Polish citizens, with 15,500 applications since May, a sharp rise from 2,757 for the whole of 2003.

The vast majority of immigrants — 68% — were aged between 18 and 30 and a further 24% fell in the 30- to 45-year-old group.

“This would suggest that the majority coming here from the new member states do so for the purposes of seeking employment,” said Brennan. “The number who succeeded in finding employment is not known but data held by the Revenue Commissioners suggests it is significantly less than 30,000.”

Only a small minority of the new immigrants have applied for social welfare and more than half of the 600 that did seek it were disallowed on the basis of an inability to fulfil a condition of being “habitually” resident in the republic. Applicants who meet this stipulation must still undergo a means test as well as satisfying an adjudicating officer of their availability for work.

There are 700 people from the 10 new member states on the live register. While this represents an increase of 265 since May 1, it is still less than 0.5% of those signing on.

Brennan said the relatively small number of immigrants from these countries who had applied for social welfare indicated that those who had failed to find jobs had left the country.

The habitual residence rule was introduced earlier this year to combat abuse of the country’s social welfare laws. It has generated controversy, particularly after a number of elderly Irish missionaries holidaying at home were turned down for pension payments on the basis that they did not fulfil the criteria.

Brennan emphasised the change to the legislation did not affect long-term exiles returning to Ireland on a long-term basis but said his officials were reviewing the “efficiency and effectiveness” of the new policy.

Mike.