Luas - Fundemental philosophy question

Deacon Blues

This has probably been beaten to death on this board, but I'm new and have a basic question on the reason for LUAS which I haven't been able to get a satisfactory answer for. Maybe someone here can help.

I'm a driver, and I was very irritated when bus lanes and QBCs started, but have come to accecpt them, and now they are a part of life and don't concern me at all. It can be irritating to be sitting beside an empty bus lane, but that's a completely different topic.

Light rail, or LUAS is a different matter !!!

I cannot understand how so much of the road can be taken up by such an inflexible system. We have seen how the DART was out of commission for days when high winds damaged a crane recently, and how every couple of months when a truck hits a level crossing, it's stopped for hours, or even a full day. What happens if there's a major fire on the LUAS route, and it ends up being shut down for days. (This is not a very unlikely scenario ... probably twice a year there are fires in Dublin which can have firefighters in attendence, with roads closed for days, and then the dangerous buildings section have the road closed for another two or three days). With an inflexible system like LUAS, the trams will just go to this point and stop. With buses and buslanes, if there's a road closed, they just take a different route.

How can the huge disruption and capital expenditure be justified, when the same jobcould be done with bus lanes and more buses. Surely, if the money spent on the LUAS was spent on new buses and drivers, we would end up with a much more efficient, flexible and probably better service.

Any LUAS fans out there to convince me otherwise ??

Greenman

I can't convince you but is true that that cars etc cannot drive over the tracks? Here in good old Belgium all the traffic drives over the tracks!!! Maybe someone has the answer!!!!

Victor

Where would you put the bus lanes? How do you encourage car drivers to use public transport when it's known they are too snooby to use buses?

Originally posted by greenman
I can't convince you but is true that that cars etc cannot drive over the tracks? Here in good old Belgium all the traffic drives over the tracks!!! Maybe someone has the answer!!!!

What use would Luas be on the Naas Road if cars could drive on the tracks and just obstruct the trams? That said, general traffic is allowed on a few short sections and for access.

Remember that there is a fundamental problem in this country of people not obeying the Rules of the Road

bus77

The whole lot should have been put on stilts(or at least large sections of it). There are certain streches of road that were in desperate need of the road space before the plans were even finalised yet they still went ahead anyway.

A raised system would have cost a lot more but it would have been so much more apealing for people to leave the car at home and "ride above the traffic"

Deacon Blues

Where would you put the bus lanes?

How about where the tracks are ????

Victor

Originally posted by Deacon Blues
How about where the tracks are ????

not suitable for a variety of reasons (a) conflict at tram platforms (a tram is more or less fixed in it's position on a road, a bus isn't) (b) slippage - tram tracks are smooth (c) the track bed is more expensive (d) buses will delay trams.

gom

The LUAS benefits Car users that don't even use it. It takes other cars off the road. So Public transport benefits you even if you never use it...

BrianD

Deacon Blue - typical car user against public transport rambling.

Dublin Bus own approximately 1300 buses so its hardly surprising bus lanes appear to be empty while you sit alone in your car.

Very little road space is taken up by the tram way. Granted there is more on-road sections on the red line. I woul agree that it is unusual that the tracks don't run down the centre of the road as opposed to one side e.g. Harcourt St.

The tram lines are not the solution too Dublin's traffic/transport problems, they are just a part of it. If you noticed the speed at which the trams move at you will see how attractive as a mode of transport it will be for the areas it serves.

Of course a fixed route is prone to interruption and that is a known disadvantage of rail system. Saying that buses and cars can divert at will is rarely as simple as that.

The tram system has been delivered over budget and late. There is no doubt about that but then again there are few public projects (including roads) that are ever deliverd on time and within budget.

jd

Originally posted by BrianD
The tram system has been delivered over budget and late. There is no doubt about that but then again there are few public projects (including roads) that are ever deliverd on time and within budget.

Surprisingly enough Irish rail have a good record in this kind of project management (excepting the signalling fiasco, which still leave a funny smell)
jd

Winters

The reason that the Luas is not down the middle of Harcourt Street is that Harcourt Street is one way. On the continent if the street is two way then the tram route is down the middle. This is the norm everywhere including Ireland. For example Bluebell.

Im sure that the Dublin Fire Brigade would have problems with reaching buildings in the city centre through the overhead wires? Trying to extend a ladder/turntable through the OHLE would be extremely difficult and dangerous.

In Bordeaou the City authorities deemed some of the city centre too historical to be ruined by overhead wires and instructed that the system be designed to run without them on those certain roads.

http://www.lrta.org/art0212.html

A system is in place where the trams run on overhead power untill the city centre and then they run on a special third rail system for 10km that is only live when directly underneath the unit. no harm to bystanders at all. Looks a lot better too.

www.alstom.com

Im comparison to similiar systems in Europe under economical situations like ours the Luas is just about value for money. The Barcelona system came out more expensive than ours per km.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/barcelona/index.html

Posted by Mark B. For and on behalf of "Winters"

Victor

Originally posted by Winters
The reason that the Luas is not down the middle of Harcourt Street is that Harcourt Street is one way.

It also isn't (consistently) wide enough for 2 lanes + 2 tracks.

Originally posted by Winters
Im sure that the Dublin Fire Brigade would have problems with reaching buildings in the city centre through the overhead wires? Trying to extend a ladder/turntable through the OHLE would be extremely difficult and dangerous.

No doubt the Fire Brigade have a direct link to Luas control and that section can be depowered. In any case use of ladders by the fire brigade is relatively rare (especially compared to higher cities) and there are few tall buildings immediately next to Luas.

Winters

Originally posted by Victor
In any case use of ladders by the fire brigade is relatively rare (especially compared to higher cities) and there are few tall buildings immediately next to Luas.

You're right there, i never thought about that, havent seen them up ladders for a....ever actually.


Is Harcourt Street with the completion of the Luas going to be two traffic lanes or one? Judging by the photos ive seen i can see it being two. Any takers?

Judging by the road markings it looks like there is going to be a left turning lane at the south end of Harcourt Street but that it is not in use yet.

http://www.allaboutbuses.com/luas/pics/40418-rv482.jpg

http://busesinireland.bravepages.com/files/luas24.JPG

http://www.allaboutbuses.com/luas/pics/40418-a.jpg

http://www.allaboutbuses.com/luas/pics/31130-harcourtlines.jpg

Posted by Mark B. For and on behalf of "Winters"

Deacon Blues

quote:

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Originally posted by Deacon Blues
How about where the tracks are ????

---

not suitable for a variety of reasons (a) conflict at tram platforms (a tram is more or less fixed in it's position on a road, a bus isn't) (b) slippage - tram tracks are smooth (c) the track bed is more expensive (d) buses will delay trams.


Victor,

I was saying run bus lane instead of tracks, not over them.


OK, so far the only advantage I've been given is that the trams move faster. That's nice. Bloody expensive ... but nice.

Victor

Originally posted by Deacon Blues
OK, so far the only advantage I've been given is that the trams move faster.

They deliver more people quicker. It is more comfortable and proundly safer than driving. It attracts people who would not otherwise use public transport, thereby freeing up roadspace for other people.

Winters

More environmentally friendly too

More integration

More user friendly

Less dangerous

Deacon Blues

I'm convinced on public transport. I'm looking for reasons why the huge money spent on LUAS shouldn't have been spent on buses and bus lanes.

If the SAME money that was spent on LUAS was spent on buses (not necessarily just Dublin Bus, although I think they're doing a great job, and wouldn't like to see them nobbled), but if needs be private operators, surely even more people could be moved, maybe not as quickly, but as safely and comfortably.

I don't accept that LUAS is more 'user friendly'. Explanation please.

Where's the better integration. I'm not talking about the current bus system. I'm talking about a bus system which has had the ridiculously huge LUAS budget spent on it.

Enviromentially friendly. OK. I'll accept that. The pollution and fossel fuel use is taken off the city street and moved to an electricity generating station, and a gas turbine running a generator is much more efficient and cleaner than a diesel engine.

Attracting people that wouldn't normally use public transport ??? You've got a cheap, efficient, frequent bus service that goes where you want to go. It gets you there quicker then driving ... but you're not going to use it because it's a bus and you should have a tram. I don't think so. People will use public transport if it gets them where they want to go, when they want to go, in an efficient manner, whether it's a tram, a bus, or any other form.

Now. we've got quicker and more environmentally friendly. Still bloody expensive.

Winters

Originally posted by Deacon Blues
I don't accept that LUAS is more 'user friendly'. Explanation please.

For one the Alstom Citadis trams, which the Luas is was designed with bring user friendly in mind. They have a full low floor throughout which gives better access for disabled and mobility impared passangers. Their large open windows give passengers better view of the surrounding aera and allow more light etc. I could so go in and quote the Alstom Transport website. The Citadis are probably the best and most user friendly trams on the market.

Originally posted by Deacon Blues
Attracting people that wouldn't normally use public transport ??? You've got a cheap, efficient, frequent bus service that goes where you want to go. It gets you there quicker then driving ... but you're not going to use it because it's a bus and you should have a tram. I don't think so. People will use public transport if it gets them where they want to go, when they want to go, in an efficient manner, whether it's a tram, a bus, or any other form.

If you were stuck in traffic for an hour to two hours a day, as many people are along the routes that the luas will serve you would be more likly to get on a tram then a bus. It is a known fact that people are more likly to use trams then buses as they are more welcoming and easier to use then busses. Remember, majority of people will go with a particular public transport service as it gets them closer to their destination and faster. I will get the bus as it will leave me outside my door however, if i am in a rush I may get the DART due to the fact that it is faster then the bus, even though it is more expensive.

antoinolachtnai

Well, it is true that you could get a similar level of service with buses, and bi-articulated buses could hold almost as many people as the trams. There are systems like this in Utrecht and in Curitiba. The Utrecht system in particular has a specially designed surface to ensure as smooth a ride as possible. Modern low-floor buses with lots of doors combined with raised boarding platforms give an experience that's pretty good, if not quite as good as light rail.

However, there are (as far as I can see) some hidden reasons for going with light rail.

- Rail was less likely than buses to raise objections from residents who are in close proximity to the Harcourt line. This may have been an emotional rather than a rational reaction, but the reality is that the project would have gotten seriously bogged down if the residents had started vehemently objecting.

- the lines may be that little bit narrow to have buses passing on. I don't know if this is true. It certainly has been raised before in regard to the Harcourt line.

- true, you could have built dedicated bus lanes like you suggest, but the whole thing would probably have gotten watered down in the political process. Before you'd know it, the whole thing would be boiled down into a minor QBC project, with little priority through the city centre. The light rail, on the other hand, has to have road space dedicated to it, or it just wouldn't work.

- if you have the throughput to justify it, the light rail is a nicer system. It's not cheaper, and it still only gets you from A to B. But it does provide a better experience. If you can afford it, it's probably worth the bit extra. It's hard to explain. I suppose it's a little like the way it might be worth buying or renting a slightly bigger apartment, even though you don't actually need the extra space, and it doesn't give you the more tangible benefit of extra bedrooms.

West Briton

Well, I work in Dundrum, the tram will take me there in fifteen minutes from the Green so that's the end of the argument AFAIC.

Sarsfield

That's all well and good West Briton, but in the immortal words of Garret Fitzgerald, it may work in practice, but does it work in theory?

thejollyrodger

luas sounds good now ! whats the final final plan going 2 look like ? how many more lines ?


i just found out for me self

SeeYouJimmy

jaysus has nobody ever been to amsterdam?, brussells? or any other major european city to see that trams actually work?

and when i say work i mean work good......

BrianD

I notice that the Connex literature refers to the opening of the "first two lines". Obviously, they must have their sights on more ...

georgia

Originally posted by Victor
Where would you put the bus lanes? How do you encourage car drivers to use public transport when it's known they are too snooby to use buses?

Are car drivers too snobby to use the bus? Or is it that the bus service is so appalling that it cannot lure people from their cars?

Dublin Bus cannot adequately accomodate existing passengers who wish to use the bus service. There is insufficient capacity to accomodate individuals who might abandon their car in favour of the bus.

Dublin Bus operates on the principle of having each vehicle stuffed to the gills with passengers. It is not uncommon for people to be left standing at bus stops because the buses cannot take on more passengers. Thus an individual might have to wait 30 or 45 minutes to board a bus.

If it's a 10 minute walk to a bus stop followed by a 30 minute wait before boarding a bus, then it is a full 40 minutes before you are properly launched on your journey. The driver might throw in some rudeness for good measure. Why would you travel this way if you could accomplish the same journey in 10 minutes by car?

The strongest argument in favour of the private car is Dublin Bus. It is outrageous that this should be the case.

Victor

Originally posted by georgia
Are car drivers too snobby to use the bus? Or is it that the bus service is so appalling that it cannot lure people from their cars?

Dublin Bus cannot adequately accomodate existing passengers who wish to use the bus service. There is insufficient capacity to accomodate individuals who might abandon their car in favour of the bus.

Dublin Bus operates on the principle of having each vehicle stuffed to the gills with passengers. It is not uncommon for people to be left standing at bus stops because the buses cannot take on more passengers. Thus an individual might have to wait 30 or 45 minutes to board a bus.

If it's a 10 minute walk to a bus stop followed by a 30 minute wait before boarding a bus, then it is a full 40 minutes before you are properly launched on your journey. The driver might throw in some rudeness for good measure. Why would you travel this way if you could accomplish the same journey in 10 minutes by car?

The strongest argument in favour of the private car is Dublin Bus. It is outrageous that this should be the case.

See what I mean guys?

BrianD

Must of the standing on buses seems to be caused by passengers who for some odd reason refuse to move upstairs. I don't know how many buses that I have been on that are stuffed downstairs but with free seats upstairs!

georgia

Originally posted by Victor
See what I mean guys?

Sorry, but as a "newbie" (consequently unfamiliar with your postings) I am unable to interpret your response. Could you expand on your response to indicate whether you believe me to be a snobby car driver unwilling to use public transport or a beleagered bus user who truly believes that Dublin Bus presents a very strong argument in favour of the private car.

georgia

Originally posted by BrianD
Must of the standing on buses seems to be caused by passengers who for some odd reason refuse to move upstairs. I don't know how many buses that I have been on that are stuffed downstairs but with free seats upstairs!

The upstairs of buses are only really suitable for younger able-bodied passengers who are unencumbered by large parcels or small children. One needs to be fairly strong to navigate the stairs on a moving/jerking bus.

The introduction of closed circuit TV on many double decker buses are certainly a help to the driver in assessing if there is capacity upstairs.