ISDN based "always on Internet"

watty

Does anyone sell an always on ISDN channel dedicated to Internet? This is available in some countries as alternative to ADSL when ISDN works and ADSL doesnt. One channel is your "normal" phone line and the other can't be used by a modem or phone but dedicated (basically like a 64K digital Leased Line) and needs a ISDN TA to PC and is "always on" but only to Internet ISP.

If you order a 64K leased Line access to Internet it has no phone and is VERY expensive, but actually they screw an ISDN wall box on the Wall (ISDN TE).

Logically as the ISDN is built into the Exchange and a DSLAM for ADSL isn't and costs lots, the ISDN based 64K single channel always on ought to be cheaper than ADSL. Especially since they get 38 Eur line rental for phone instead of 25 Eur for same copper pair as an Analog line.

Urban Weigl

The only thing close to that here is a 64k leased line, sorry.

Our man in Havana

what are the costs involved?

Urban Weigl

It depends on your location, but I would expect it to be over 200 euros a month. One of the cheaper providers is Netsource, you might want to get a quote from them.

niallb

There are products available in other countries
that could be made available here, even if only where DSL is unavailable.
I've looked into this before, and have had a Telecom
engineer off the record suggest that they have been testing.
The cost need be nowhere near as high as that suggested.
The reason always on links are expensive is because they tie up circuits in the exchange.
An always on "D" channel (at about 9.6k) wouldn't tie up either B channel and could be used to bring up those links if required for extra bandwidth.

9.6k always on would have loads of applications.
Germany uses this link to send billing information and time information to phones during calls.
It's plenty for overnight email and dedicated monitoring.

That said, Germany also does IDSL, which is a DSL product that can go anywhere ISDN can go.
NiallB

watty

In reality a B -Channel @ 64K "always on" to Internet ties up the Exchange and costs less to run than the lowest DSL speed option. The €200 to €1000 per month (depends on distance to Internet Node, not local exchange) cost *IS* artifical.

Even Comreg has said that Irish Leased Line costs are Way too High.

I nearly got a trial 9.6K X.25 over the 16K D-Channel (which is always on anyway), but I was stupid enough to tell them what I was going to do with it and Eircom withdrew the offer. You can get it "offically" for automated cash transactions and alarm reporting systems.

BArra

i gave 1800 512 128 another regular few monthly call to see if my exchange "carrigtwohill" had any news on it, found out no plans for the next year, great!

then got the usual, have u got ISDN, yes i said, and do i have their flat rate package, then he went on about the trigger program, but the interesting part was when he said i should keep my eye on the press in the coming weeks as a new offer was going to be announced.. and he said he couldnt tell me any more so i pressed him a little and mentioned your d-channel that you've being talking about to which he said again he couldnt say anything,but it had nothing to do with isdn

wonder what he was on about................................. :P

anybody know of something new coming up from eircom?

Urban Weigl

It's probably nothing.

Capt'n Midnight

Posted this before, but about 6-7 years ago was talking to someone from ESAT and they setup the ISDN so that it would notify people when a new email had arrived and then they'd dial up to collect the email, except people didn't dial up they just let it trickle through - so that got shelved.

If they sold it as "bandwidth on demand" where the basic 9.6K was left on 24/7 and then you could activate the 64K/128K while browsing..

Urban Weigl

Capt'n Midnight, 2 years ago, I would have said hell yea! Now, with the progress that xDSL technology has made, it is no longer relevant. There is no excuse not to have ~95% DSL coverage, and serve the rest with wireless or similar. That is what should be done, instead of playing around (and investing in) more ISDN.

niallb

If they're sticking in ISDN, at least they're sticking in good copper.

It's all very well saying we should have 95% coverage,
and I think everyone on the board will agree with you, but we also know that it's a long way from happening.

Where I live is probably going to be in the 5%
rather than the 95% for a long time,
and with the amount of tree cover
the more accessible wireless options are out.

I'd go for a GPRS connection (priced as in NI rather than ROI - flatrate)
if I wasn't in a GSM blackspot :-(

ISDN is a huge improvement in many ways over analogue dialup.
There are DSL technologies compatible with ISDN which can go further
than any of those designed for analogue lines.

Improvements in ISDN offerings would give a lot more options for those with remote tendencies,
as well as to everyone who runs a PBX system.

Every little step helps to cut down the number of
parts of Ireland that are still offline.

NiallB

Urban Weigl

If ISDN was able to reach everyone, I would agree with you. The fact is, it doesn't. A splitter won't just derail ADSL, it will have the same effect on ISDN as well. Not to mention that ISDN is just as distance sensitive as modern ADSL.

Simply speaking, why waste money (and resources) on old technology? No matter what you say, creating a new ISDN product would cost money. We would need more ISDN ports, we would need to remove line splitters, etc etc. Go for ADSL, not ISDN. Much better ROI.

watty

ISDN is very old, about 25 years or more.

But lots of people who can't get ADSL can get ISDN (almost anyone on a "trigger level" exhange).

Most people don't need ADSL speed. 64K is fine. What they need is lower cost access or always on. This can be done on ISDN simply by changing tarriff. One ISDN channel "always on" to Internet only would cost Eircom LESS than the most basic ADSL connection, and the remaining channel gives the user a better service than the analog line.

Note that with most ADSL, you can't have ISDN for phone, only analog.

So actually ISDN with one channel as a "psuedo dsl" 64K both ways always on, while "old technology" requires Eircom to do nothing other than change billing structure.

It's actually an appropriate solution for most people. At 70c for a CDR and 1.50 for a DVD+R if you "really" needed a big download, someone else with a fat broadband can download it.

Amazingly most people do not need to download Warez, Ripped MP3 tracks and DIVx pirate movies.

I have run small training class rooms with a single 64K ISDN via a proxy/firewall with 6 users fine.

If you want a fax and phone with two different numbers, even one ISDN channel will work fine. ISDN has a lot of voice / fax / data (direct dialups, not internet) flexibility DSL does not have. DSL *ONLY* gives internet access.

No new investment or hardware is needed for digital exchanges for ISDN. For a Digital exchange, EXTRA modules are required for analog. The exchange end uses LESS gear and no new/extra gear when a ISDN outlet (with or without POTS sockets) is fitted at subscriber premises.

ADSL needs analog line / phone calls and extra "hard to accomadate "DSLAMs" at the exchange.

Yes ADSL prices and availablity should be better. But an "always on" ISDN based product is just a marketing decison, not technology for any Digital Exchange.

There is even technology for more than one ISDN over a copper wire to get round the shared pair problem. It's called a "multiplex". The 1.5Mbit and 2Mbit are standard multiplex but there are special lower bandwidth ones (less channels) using carrier for poorer wires.

A 2Mbit mplex with carrier gives 30 B channels and combines the 15 D channels to two B channel. Normal C.O. or PABX 2Mbit multplex give 31 vioce/data (B channels) and one 64K signalling channel.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by watty
But lots of people who can't get ADSL can get ISDN (almost anyone on a "trigger level" exhange).

Why do you say this? The vast majority of my neighbours are on pairgains, and are therefore not capable of getting ISDN. All evidence points to the fact that this situation is widespread throughout rural Ireland.

The rest of your post is predicated on the suggestion that Eircom "should" offer a flat-rate ISDN service, on the grounds that it would save the customer money. What on earth makes you think that Eircom have any interest in reducing your communications costs?

I find it hard to understand why someone with your obvious technical know-how is downplaying the need for broadband.

niallb

I don't feel this thread is downplaying the need for broadband.
It is simply discussing the need for alternative data products.
Broadband for Ireland is not the same thing as DSL upgraded eircom lines in every home.
Do you really want to run all our data over a technology that is 130 years old :-)
ISDN offers a low latency reliable link to as many different services as the customer needs.
ISP on the blink? Dial a diferent number.
Even dialup had that one advantage over ADSL.

NiallB

watty

ISDN *CAN* be fitted on pair gains with small cheap 4 or 6 channel mux if both parties get ISDN. you can even "fake" analog" by putting ISDN TE with pots in the local cabinet!

Flat rate always on ISDN would make Eircom more profit, even if sold cheaper than ADSL

1) More customers
2) Customers who won't ever have ADSL (too expensive)
3) Customers who can't have ADSL (no DSLAMs in exchange)

The biggest issue for "Internet for everyone" is NOT speed and Broadband. Sorry. It's a myth. The biggest issues are:

1) Cost
2) Errors/ reliability
3) Availability

Any speed over 40K is actually fine *IF*
:: The line doesn't drop
:: There are no errors
:: It is cheap enough for anyone
:: Connection is either instant or always on.

Often a 44K connection on analog is less than 1/2 the speed of 64K ISDN due to high error rate (packets half to be resent too frequently).


Let's actually have universal internet access cheaply and relaible and instant at a speed good enough for email and web browsing then worry about access for "higher bandwidth" users.

Higher bandwidth users I would put in two camps:

1) Folks that want to download lots. A 256k down / 64K is a minimum. This is luxury use. Beyond basic needs. Yet this and the 512K ADSL is what most of the product is.

2) Folks that want to self host Email and Web servers with "live" rather than static web pages (mostly business). Also downloads needed.
1M SDSL both ways is a minumum. I have found that even 1M /256K ADSL does not cut it. The web server has not enough BW upstream to public Internet clients.

If a small business is not self hosting an ISDN solution with FAX server / inward routing etc and 64K internet is fine up to about 20 employees. Or more if most don't need much or any Internet access.

(All access controlled by Proxy/Firewall, no WEB email or direct eamil, all email clients use internal mail server which picks up mail from ISP, and uses simple content filter to block even viruses the AV SW doesn't know about yet.)


So *MOST* of the current Broadband rollout neither suits "granny at home" nor self hosted business solutions.

Analyse what is *ACTUALLY* needed rather than "We should all have ADSL/Broadband" cries.

niallb

Nothing personal UW, you just put the other side of the argument best,
so I'm replying to your post :-)

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
If ISDN was able to reach everyone, I would agree with you. The fact is, it doesn't.

Neither does ADSL
What are the percentages of lines failing on enabled exchanges at the moment?
At least if IDSL was introduced, ALL existing ISDN lines could use it,
nothing vague about it - either you can do 144k or you can't.

A splitter won't just derail ADSL, it will have the same effect on ISDN as well.

You can't split an ISDN line, in fact ordering an ISDN upgrade
is one of the accepted ways to get a splitter removed.

Not to mention that ISDN is just as distance sensitive as modern ADSL.

That's true - but it's a longer distance ;-)

Simply speaking, why waste money (and resources) on old technology? No matter what you say, creating a new ISDN product would cost money. We would need more ISDN ports, we would need to remove line splitters, etc etc. Go for ADSL, not ISDN. Much better ROI.

Erm, we need to remove the linesplitters anyway for ADSL? Plus they're practically illegal?
What we're discussing is more of a new service on an existing product.
I'm sure it would cost a fortune to work out the pricing structure,
but for lots of us, this would make a real difference.
Up to 144k is available with baseband ISDN as it currently exists.
Alternatives using broadband ISDN can reach 1.5Mb, but
currently are very rare globally.
This board is not called DublinOffline or Cork Offline, it's nationwide.

Also, as watty says above, ISDN's flexibility as a phone system
beats analogue hands down.
We should be aiming at getting ISDN set up as the standard
voice offering in the country as it has pretty much been in Germany
since the late 70s.

My only problem with IDSL would be that if I got it on my ISDN line,
I'd have to upgrade my analogue to ISDN because I'd hate to be back
to just analogue voice services!

NiallB

oscarBravo

Originally posted by niallb
I don't feel this thread is downplaying the need for broadband.
It is simply discussing the need for alternative data products.

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood watty's comment that "most people do not need to download Warez, Ripped MP3 tracks and DIVx pirate movies."

Broadband for Ireland is not the same thing as DSL upgraded eircom lines in every home.
Do you really want to run all our data over a technology that is 130 years old :-)

Believe me, you're preaching to the choir.

ISDN offers a low latency reliable link to as many different services as the customer needs.

You forgot "low speed." Contrary to what watty thinks, there are people with legitimate applications for a high-speed link.

Originally posted by watty
ISDN *CAN* be fitted on pair gains with small cheap 4 or 6 channel mux if both parties get ISDN.

Unless I've completely misunderstood you, this means you need 4-6 pairgained phonelines to handle one ISDN line. If that's not what you mean, please explain more clearly.

Flat rate always on ISDN would make Eircom more profit, even if sold cheaper than ADSL

1) More customers
2) Customers who won't ever have ADSL (too expensive)
3) Customers who can't have ADSL (no DSLAMs in exchange)

1) More customers? Eircom already has a phone line to almost everyone in the country. Where are people suddenly going to appear from to buy these lines?
2) Eircom don't want people to have ADSL - they make too much money from dialup. This is precisely why they're not going to offer a flatrate ISDN service - they'd make less money from their existing customers.
3) See above.

The biggest issue for "Internet for everyone" is NOT speed and Broadband. Sorry. It's a myth. The biggest issues are:

1) Cost
2) Errors/ reliability
3) Availability

This is true - for a lot of people. It's also completely false for others - see below.

Any speed over 40K is actually fine *IF*
:: The line doesn't drop
:: There are no errors
:: It is cheap enough for anyone
:: Connection is either instant or always on.

Fine for what, exactly? For your specific needs? What about self-employed people whose business depends on being able to exchange large files with their clients, like my next-door neighbour?

Let's actually have universal internet access cheaply and relaible and instant at a speed good enough for email and web browsing then worry about access for "higher bandwidth" users.

To do so would require an investment by Eircom in their network that, quite simply, isn't going to happen.

Analyse what is *ACTUALLY* needed rather than "We should all have ADSL/Broadband" cries.

I agree - but I'm not content to settle for what granny needs - I and others have a specific need for high-speed always on Internet access.

I'm making the mistake here of allowing myself to be distracted from the real point: we shouldn't be depending on Eircom for Internet access, high- or low-speed. The network is in tatters, and it's not going to be fixed. A new network is needed. That's where we should be focusing our energy - and some of us are.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by niallb
I don't feel this thread is downplaying the need for broadband.
It is simply discussing the need for alternative data products.
Broadband for Ireland is not the same thing as DSL upgraded eircom lines in every home.
Do you really want to run all our data over a technology that is 130 years old :-)
ISDN offers a low latency reliable link to as many different services as the customer needs.
ISP on the blink? Dial a diferent number.
Even dialup had that one advantage over ADSL.

NiallB

I have ISDN and i am very happy with it. What I would like is a FRIACO style access at 64K. I already get 180 hrs for €25.

What are the chances of getting this?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by niallb
You can't split an ISDN line, in fact ordering an ISDN upgrade
is one of the accepted ways to get a splitter removed.

Some splitters are not going to be removed. To remove pairgains around here would require running kilometres of brand-new copper. You think Eircom are going to spend that kind of money?

Also, as watty says above, ISDN's flexibility as a phone system
beats analogue hands down.
We should be aiming at getting ISDN set up as the standard
voice offering in the country as it has pretty much been in Germany
since the late 70s.

Should have happened back in the late eighties. It's not going to happen now. Time to move on.

Capt'n Midnight

Broadband is needed, but most people would not have the spend to justify it at current prices. Also if you are not into multimedia / or graphics rich stuff then 64K is loads. - Technically it is a nice lite solution as long as it is not priced extrotionaly. I

Was it in germany where about 5 years ago they just bit the bullet and all new lines were installed as ISDN where it was available - no faffing about later on.

The point is we are building more new houses than ever before in this country, so the number of home owners is going up. The internet is more usable than before - more goods and services on it than ever before, and you don't need to be technical. But the number of consumer line rentals is going down. For a monopoly in an expanding market...

There is a confernce on at the moment to try to determin how to stop the EU brain drain of technical/engineering to the states. Internet costs are a small part of that.

niallb

Originally posted by oscarBravo

...Believe me, you're preaching to the choir.
...You forgot "low speed."
... I and others have a specific need for high-speed always on Internet access.

Choirs are made up of people with different voices.
I didn't forget to mention "low speed", I simply listed the advantages ISDN offers,
being low latency and reliability
and speed doesn't make it onto that list!

Some people like myself have a need for "always on",
but not a need for "high speed".
Many people with a need for "high speed" have no real need for "always on".

Unfortunately, in Ireland today, you can't have one without the other.

NiallB

watty

Originally posted by oscarBravo
I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood watty's comment that "most people do not need to download Warez, Ripped MP3 tracks and DIVx pirate movies." Believe me, you're preaching to the choir. You forgot "low speed." Contrary to what watty thinks, there are people with legitimate applications for a high-speed link.

The majority either need less speed, cheaper or MORE speed at same price than the majority of ADSL offers. Current ADSL is like Size 12 clothes in a world where every girl takes a 8, 10 , 14 or 16. (no offence to average size 12 girls intended)

Unless I've completely misunderstood you, this means you need 4-6 pairgained phonelines to handle one ISDN line. If that's not what you mean, please explain more clearly.

>> A pair gain is one pair copper wire from exchange to local cabinet. That ONE PAIR of copper can handle a special 4, 6 or 8 channel ISDN "modem" called a multiplexor.

Then from cabnet to house can be ISDN or even analog via a POTS TA in the cabinet. At the C.O. the equipment may be less space than Carrier gear for "pair gain" over analog. In the local cabinet, perhaps slightly more space. Many C.O. designs can drive such remote ISDN mux equipment on one pair copper wires natively, no digital exchange has Analog Carrier gear for "pair gain" built in, it is an addon

1) More customers? Eircom already has a phone line to almost everyone in the country. Where are people suddenly going to appear from to buy these lines?
2) Eircom don't want people to have ADSL - they make too much money from dialup. This is precisely why they're not going to offer a flatrate ISDN service - they'd make less money from their existing customers.

>> Possibly true. But maybe they would get people who don't use internet at all

>> More and more people don't bother with fixed line. The mobile phones in Ireland outnumber fixed lines now

I'm making the mistake here of allowing myself to be distracted from the real point: we shouldn't be depending on Eircom for Internet access, high- or low-speed. The network is in tatters, and it's not going to be fixed. A new network is needed. That's where we should be focusing our energy - and some of us are.

There won't be a new network. Privatisation and competition may improve some things, but every evidence is that for Rail, Bus, Water, Electricity, sewage, Phone and Broadcasting you need Government funded and planned infrastructure.

If that has not be done properly, and a state or semi-state is bloated inefficent giant, the solution is NOT privatisation, but reform.

Giving different areas to different bus companies won't be competition.

Eircom may have been bad before, but at least then if a political will had existed a change could have been made. Now we have an "asset stripped" run down shell getting sold off by the carpet baggers.

I can't see anything getting better without a lot of Government money and political will. Which won't happen.

watty

Even with 1M broadband, the most reliable way to get a CD worth or DVD worth of files to someone may be a CD or DVD via courier, rather than email.

Frankly email is not designed for the use many use it for. FTP is prehistoric protocol too.

A VPN over the Internet is a more efficent method than either Email or FTP, but needs "always on" at aleast one end.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by watty
Giving different areas to different bus companies won't be competition.

see also
MMDS / Chorus / NTL etc.

Out of curiousity how much would the pair gain equipment cost to buy/install compared to ISDN - esp considering what the customer pays in increased line rental ?

watty

I'm amazed they still use old analog carrier based pair gain equipment. Inferior service, inferior features, similar equipment costs but higher maintenance cost potentially than an ISDN multiplex type digital carrier.

Of course you can't run ADSL over pair gain or ISDN or ISDN multiplex.

VDSL can run with straight ordinary ISDN, not over Multiplex 4, 6 or 8 channel ISDN.

The multiplex needs a better quality line or less distance than regular ISDN.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by watty
A pair gain is one pair copper wire from exchange to local cabinet. That ONE PAIR of copper can handle a special 4, 6 or 8 channel ISDN "modem" called a multiplexor.

Then from cabnet to house can be ISDN or even analog via a POTS TA in the cabinet. At the C.O. the equipment may be less space than Carrier gear for "pair gain" over analog. In the local cabinet, perhaps slightly more space. Many C.O. designs can drive such remote ISDN mux equipment on one pair copper wires natively, no digital exchange has Analog Carrier gear for "pair gain" built in, it is an addon

What about a rural situation where there is no street cabinet, but just a bunch of tatty copper and a plethora of grey plastic boxes on poles?

There won't be a new network.

By hook or by crook, I reckon there will be. Last mile alternatives - mostly, but not exclusively, wireless - are inevitable. Time will tell.

If that has not be done properly, and a state or semi-state is bloated inefficent giant, the solution is NOT privatisation, but reform.

That implies political will, which has thus far been one of the most glaringly absent factors - as you pointed out yourself.

Remember the Tribune article - we will not stand and wait.

watty

A bigger plastic box on the pole

I think we all agree the present situation is untenable.

It's been a stimulating discussion.

I can't get ADSL. If I could it would be too expensive. The trigger levels on many exchanges are no doubt set way too high, will never be reached. An ISDN always on is unlikely to happen. Lots of DIY WiFi WAN nodes in Limerick, a fun thing, but not what I need (I'll have maybe two nodes up soon, a beam and an omni, I have all the gear).

It's looking like my analog will not be fixed and with demise of Chorus Wireless Loop, no alternative. If I can rent from other than Eircom next month it will simply be the same wire and exchange but a different company issuing the bill. This is NOT competition. Comreg agreed with me on phone that "it isn't really".

I guess I'll have to have no home access or pay 15 Euro extra a month for ISDN. The redial cost is too high and performance too low.

The Eircom line rental is already 12 Euro per month more than I was paying...

I actually have a real server, real web server, SQL server, mail server and firewall all at home.. An 1Mbit SDSL would be nice, but unaffordable.

I'll make do with dialup ISDN.

You'll need an account (name agreed with me and password decided by me to connect to my system by WiFi / WAN). I'll also be connecting to the world wide AX25 free packet network via the limerick node at a staggering 2,400 bits per second. You don't know the meaning of Sloooooow till you have tried a file transfer on that, still no phone or internet charges The Germans of course are doing radio AX.25 at over 20Mbits/s

niallb

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Some splitters are not going to be removed. To remove pairgains around here would require running kilometres of brand-new copper.

If the copper is really maxed out, you may be lucky enough to get ISDN over wireless. Depends on where you live.
The ISDN module in those boxes can be replaced with a much higher bandwidth one when the capacity is available at the transmitting exchange.

NiallB

p.s. Watty, this crowd, http://www.cpsat.co.uk are accepting orders again.
How about an 2.4k AX/25 ham radio uplink with a 1Mb satellite backhaul!

oscarBravo

Originally posted by niallb
If the copper is really maxed out, you may be lucky enough to get ISDN over wireless. Depends on where you live.
The ISDN module in those boxes can be replaced with a much higher bandwidth one when the capacity is available at the transmitting exchange.

I'm one of the few people in the country who already have this. In fact, I've yet to come across anyone else who got it. Certainly in this part of the country they're refusing point-blank to install any more.

Interestingly, it seems it's not exactly ISDN they provide over wireless: the RJ45 connector on the box is not an S-bus, and only supports connecting one device. Which is a minor pain.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by oscarBravo
I'm one of the few people in the country who already have this. In fact, I've yet to come across anyone else who got it. Certainly in this part of the country they're refusing point-blank to install any more.

Interestingly, it seems it's not exactly ISDN they provide over wireless: the RJ45 connector on the box is not an S-bus, and only supports connecting one device. Which is a minor pain.

What sort of a set up have you? Is there a large attenna on your house? Do you still have the original line?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Bond-007
What sort of a set up have you? Is there a large attenna on your house? Do you still have the original line?

The antenna is quite small, only about 25x25cm. The original line is still installed, but not connected to anything.

I originally had a wired line, which was crap. I needed a second line for business, but there was no copper available - not even a spare pairgain - so I got a wireless PSTN line. After months of lobbying I finally got the wireless line upgraded to ISDN, and got the old wired line disconnected.

watty

Presumably similar to the squarial and box I had for wireless phone line for two years with Chorus.

The circuit board inside the aerial box does seem to be a complete digital link receiver / transmitter and the box in house connected to it with RJ45 and a backup battery has two POTS sockets and empty PCB space for what looks like S-BUS. I only had one "line" but a second was availabel simply by asking, they could turn it on while you waited.

So it seemed very like some kind of ISDN wireless replacement. Normally 32K voice though (probabily) , which gives 19.2K modem. On switching it to 64K next day, the analog modem was always exactly 49K and totally error free. Very like analog modem over ISDN in fact. No extra charge for the higher data rate.

Inevitiable I suppose that they lost the licence. They said I could keep all the gear, so it is completely dissassembled now.