getting messed around by agencies ( Verkom...)

juno75

I just wanna find out how prevelant this is, why it happens and do any agencies do this more than others?

Goning for an interview and getting no response? ( IT support)

Whats the story?

This is twice now this has happend to me - Last year with CPL and now this year with Verkom.

Last year went for an interview, over an hour long, delved into every bit of my life
I felt it went well and to this day I never recived a response , for 5 weeks I rang CPL
and asked them what the story is and all I got was- ooo, were expecting a response soon etc etc etc, in the mean time I got another job.

Now the same thing has happened again with Verkom ,going for a position at a certian IT co. on grand canal dock.

Did telephone interview first for half an hour, that went good, went in and then did an hour and a half interview at the premisis. They said they would be in touch and that the last I heard, 5 weeks now agian (needless to sy Im hunting around all the tim, lest I rely on people like this)

Ive email my contact in Verkom - He does not respond to email.
I phone him 3 times now, the first time he says that 'i ll ring them and get back to you' no reply for week. I rang agian and a few days ago ( amonth after the interview) and still no straight answer, 'these things take time' ,yer right.

I dont give a toss about getting the job , what i am angry about is not getting a straight yes /no answer. Of course at this stage Im pretty sure the job is gone but
WHY DO I NOT GET AN ANSWER?

Any you agency people reading this care to explain?
and dont gimme crap about 'sign off'

Im qualifed, experianced and well presented (i think)

I make time, get of my arse and do my best to do a good interview.

the least someone deserves is an answer.

***Gripe Over***

Sleipnir

Fo straight to the company you were going for and tell them you haven't had a response from Verkom. Do you have th guys name who interviewed you.
The company won't like to hear that about their agency.

Yes, it is very prevalent.

pebble

To be honest, I think if someone can get themselves a good reputation for good client services, an ajency could clean up in Dublin.

Most people really seem to hate agencies, and I wuold agree. I have been shafted a number of times by them. ALl it needs is a small company who will get back to a candidate and say, 'Sorry, you didn't get the job. The client thought you were rubbish in this area'.

That sort of advice is invaluable for a candidate, and the less wait the better.
It's so bloody obvious, that I am astounded that no agencies do this.

If I lived in dublin, I would do it. I could make a fortune!

seamus

They're a malicious lot, scheming and planning. You're not a client, anxious to get a job, you're another potential sale, and if you don't sell, they don't care.

Although, it's not unknown for companies to take a long time to make decisions. I remember going for an interview for a very small tech company, and receiving a letter of rejection almost 9 weeks later. I'd had two new jobs by then

Normally, a company will give a list back to the recruitment agency, those who got the job, and those in reserve. The reserve guys will be listed, in order, as people to get the job, should any of the others refuse the work.
Now, to be called up and told 3 days after an interview, that although you didn't get the job, you will be offered it should anyone else reject it, isn't such a bad thing. It's better than just "You didn't get it" anyway. At least you know that you did some degree of a decent interview, especially if there were only a few positions.
I was told that once, when I went for a job with only one position, and that was my first thought - "At least I know my interviews aren't awful". Ended up getting that job too.
But the recruitment companies won't tell you that you're in reserve, for two reasons.
The first is that they want you to wait, on the edge of your seat, until all the positions are accepted. If someone happens to pull out, you weren't a reserve, you were actually offered the job! Aren't you great! And aren't we great for getting it for you! If they tell you you are a reserve, you'll go look for another job, and so may reject this one if actually offered to you.
The second reason is information hiding. If you don't know you actually did good in the interview, but not quite good enough, you won't be compelled to go straight to the company again to look for the job. You'll go back to the recruitment company. As well as that, if another position becomes available, the company will have to go and pay the recruitment consultants to set up a new interview, and a whole new host of applicants. Also, if you happen to hear that a position has become available, you can't go back and say "I was a reserve, can I not have the job?" because you didn't know that.

At least these are the things I've experienced looking for work in IT.

Most people really seem to hate agencies, and I wuold agree. I have been shafted a number of times by them. ALl it needs is a small company who will get back to a candidate and say, 'Sorry, you didn't get the job. The client thought you were rubbish in this area'.

That sort of advice is invaluable for a candidate, and the less wait the better.
It's so bloody obvious, that I am astounded that no agencies do this.

Yep. A lot more openness and customer service from a recruitment company, and they'd probably grab almost every jobseeker in the country.

juno75

cheers chaps, I'm finding out more from boards than i'll ever find from the horses mouth (as ever:) )
Certianly shineing some light on their dodgy dealings.
I knew some scheme was afoot, but not quite what it was or the purpose.
Its all becoming a bit clearer now.
One thing that was stressed to me was 'this is a very stressfull position' etc etc
And i mean , they really stressed this so being on a reserve list kinda makes sence - they may be waiting for someone to quit.
At this stage I want him to call me and tell me I got the job because I have a little bit of pride and I just wanna let loose on the muppet. These consultants must really think we are a bunch of idiots. Just make me very angry after putting in effort over the years to get qualied etc and still to be treated like this.
Tell me this though, how the hell do you get a position without involving these scumbags?

eth0_

I think agencies are the absolute scum of the earth. As you say, why is it so bloody hard for them to TELL people they haven't been succesful? They don't even have the excuse of cost of sending letters to numerous applicants, an email would do, or hey, just not bull****ting people about being in the office!
IMO Hays and Manpower are definitely the worst offenders i've come across. I know there are some recruitment agency people on this board (james melody for one), perhaps you can enlighten us as to why agencies behave in this fashion?

I really think there should be a regulatory body for agencies to stop them treating applicants and contractors like sh1t. When you think about it, if you're on the dole more than 3 months, you WILL be asked to show proof you're not getting offered jobs...how the hell are you supposed to do that when 90% of the jobs out there are offered through these scumbag agencies who are too rude to communicate??

pebble

Originally posted by juno75

Tell me this though, how the hell do you get a position without involving these scumbags?

Networking....

Use people you know. friends, family, people in the industry, contacts.
Easy way to go around the agency. Besides, a personal recommendation will go a long way further than soe agency CV.

seamus

Originally posted by pebble
Networking....

Use people you know. friends, family, people in the industry, contacts.
Easy way to go around the agency. Besides, a personal recommendation will go a long way further than soe agency CV.

Yep. Get to know people. Anybody. Message boards are good, but not great. Although quite a good bit of direct ads get posted here on boards, I'm sure a lot of posters hear about jobs in their places every day, but they're not going to post them here.

My old regime consisted of signing up for email alerts with the 3 main Job sites: monster, recruitireland, and irishjobs. Check all of these twice a day (Morning and evening), 5 days a week. Once on the weekends. Every two weeks, check some medium-sized places, and large non-IT companies (but with IT sections) and Universities. I also got registered with some of the recruitment companies, and although people complain about CPL, they did ring me a few times while I was looking for work, and have contacted me once or twice since I stopped looking (about a month ago).

It sounds like a lot of work, but the great thing about IT is that all your job searching can be done online.

The Brigadier

I can give you my own personal account of this.

There are good people working in recruitment, there are bad people working in recruitment.

I allways do what I can for people.

I can't speak for other agencies, I can't speak for other people in my company. I however allways try to call people back with feedback whenever possible.

I recruit for people in the Pharmaceutical & Medical Device sector.

Many of my larger clients have a policy of not giving feedback after an interview. Some will leave people waiting for several months before calling for a second round. I have placed people in jobs who have had a wait of up to 4 months before receiving an offer.

In these cases when I tell candidates that I have no news that means I have no news yet. No hidden agenda. I will allways try and communicate with candidates. But sometimes I just forget.

This can happen expecially when I am told over a month after a candidate has interviewed for a job that it was not going to be filled at all. If I have had 5/6 people interviewed for this role it is only human to forget one. But I do try.

I hear strange stories from candidates who have been send forwards for jobs without being told who the company is. Or who have been put forward for jobs without even being told they were put forward.

I don't do this. I was shocked this morning when I rang a candidate to let him know he was being called for final interview tomorrow to be told - he had another interview tomorrow set up by another agency in Waterford, but he didn't know who the company was?

I am sorry that some people have had bad experiences with agencies - myself included, but it doesn't mean we are all scum.

One final point that is often made is after applying for a job there is no acnoledgement made. I receive on average about 18000 applications in a year. At least half of those have NO RELEVENT SKILLS OR EXPERIENCE at all.

If I advertise a job that requires a minimum of 3 years experience in a regulated pharmaceutical company - at least half the applicants will have no pharma experience never mind the rest of the skills required for the job. A large majority of people seem to ignore any requirements listed at all.

Now I do try and respond to people when I can, but unfortunatly if I replied to everyone who sent me a CV I would have no time to do anything else at all.

I apologise to anyone I have ignored in the past - but I do try my best. And I certainly feel happy in what I do!

Ancient1

I would never consider using agencies again - this is the second time and i've made the same mistake as several years ago - i start relying on them. No, it's not that i dont do my own homework (i usually keep in touch with 2-3 agencies, tops), it's just that they start giving me hope in the beginning. Some of them are master salesmen, others lying bastards - but in the end i'm always left hanging. I've made it a habit to explain to them "No matter what happens, no matter how negative the response, i NEED to know so that we can MOVE ON and make the best of it". I only end up kidding myself.

But sometimes I just forget.

Dude - someone out there is counting on you. Don't just "forget" :mad:

By the way - happy B-day eth0_

The Brigadier

"Dude" you might want to climb down from that high horse of yours and tell me that you have never forgotten to do something in work. That you have never made a mistake.

You know I am adult enough to admit that I am not perfect, that I do make mistakes from time to time.

If you want everyone to be perfect you might want to go to ryanair and book a flight to clowdcoockooland

Ancient1

I'm not angry at you directly/personally, it's just that i find myself in exactly such a situation - so it's understandable.
Of course i'm "normal" too and forget stuff, but when it affects me directly and personally - it's only natural that i'll feel like this. I wish that more people in recruitment agencies were more straightforward and honest - and tell you like it is - "listen, you blew the interview, but dont despair, we'll move forward and find you something". Yes - it's a business so it's the placements/sales that count at the end of the day, but a recruiter also presents him/herself as someone in a position/ willing to help with important things - we're talking jobs after all.

go to ryanair

The Brigadier

Oh, and I do know where you are coming from.

I was merely making the point that I really make a big effort to keep people as informed as possible. But even then I am human and I can miss people out sometimes.

As an aside my best mate was talking to his brothers girlfriend the other week (who works for a client of mine but does not know me)

He mentioned that I was working in recruitment and she knew who I was on reputation alone(as a candidate) and sang my praises....At least I know that people out there respect my working practices.

RicardoSmith

Theres a good book about job hunting called, what color is your parachute. Its actually aimed more at people switching careers but its a good read regardless. Anyway after a lot of research it seems that something like 80% of all jobs are found through word of mouth and networking.

Everything else, agencies, cold calling, replying to press adverts, online websites etc account for the rest. When I look back on all the jobs I have had over the years this figures works out as probably 90% for me.

So basically ring everyone you know, or people who know people. Spend 80% of your time doing that. Do not spend a lot of time on the other methods, because they simply aren't that succesful.

My own experience of agencies has been very poor. I have got some contract work out of them, but in general they were useless. After a while you start to spot the adverts that repeat ads from 6 months ago, market research, and bogus jobs. Basically if someone has a fixed budget and people assigned to a project, and names of people who'll work on it, then its real job. If they can't tell you that then its not a real. Recruit Ireland posts about a hundred jobs a day on its site, but only about 10% are real. I've seen jobs on there for 6 months that haven't been filled. Theres no way thats a real job. Monsters.ie is much more realistic. That said I've got jobs through Recruit Ireland but overall I don't have a lot of time for it.

I'd say of all my job applications and interviews I've ever done about 5% ever get back to you. So I just don't expect anyone to do it now. But as one guy said to me, they can have hundred of applicants for some jobs so theres no way they could respond to them all. Fine but they should print that in the ad. Its unprofessional not to do it.

I've done 2 interviews for a job, that I was complete under qualified for, based on the spec, only for the company to turn around and say I'm over qualified, and that they've filled the position internally. Grrr.

Anyway looking for a job, is hard. Its in the top 10 of most stressful things you can do in life. So don't let it get to you. Make sure you don't spend your whole time doing it. Meet you firends, and family tell everyone you know you are looking for something. Afterall who would you prefer talking about you. A friend or an agency person who doesn't know you from adam.

theciscokid

they all suit themselves in my experience - some have been good and some have been bad

i tend to find that if you don't accept the first offer when they ring you or if they can't get you a job off their temporary list, they just forget about you.

Sometimes they ring with a job about this or that (have u read my cv lady?) or the traveling distance is unacceptable..

and they just think you are fussy and never ring back!

:dunno:

The Brigadier

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I've seen jobs on there for 6 months that haven't been filled. Theres no way thats a real job.

I have to disagree with you there.

As an example I have a guy stating a new job this monday. I received the spec from the company on the 18th of August Last Year. I was advertising a very real job for nearly 9 months. In that time there were numerous people interviewed but none were deemed the right fit.

I have too much on my plate to be doing posting up live jobs to worry myself popping up non-existent ones.

I would from about 8 in the morning to close to 7 each evening. I work damn hard at my job. I don't have time to waste. I think you will find that anybody who is working in recruitment for more than 6 months is in the situation.

Ancient1

I really make a big effort to keep people as informed as possible

Yes - and that's how it should be and that's what most agencies simply have to adopt as policy - otherwise they're just dealing in misery. I have had an excellent experience with an agency - the guy really fought for me and got me shortlisted for an interview with a major multinational. The interview really went well - but i never heard back from anyone. I found out on my own that the multinational actually had to start downsizing and were shedding jobs left right and center. Fair enough - but i should have been told.
so, in brief - there are good agencies out there and there are good recruiters who will push hard to get you placed. But if it doesnt work out i'm not sure if they lose interest, or is it courage? Is it a face-saving thing? Did they not think you are "sell-able material" after all? i really dont know...

The Brigadier

There are good and bad in any profession. That's life.

Just dont' assume like etho that "I think agencies are the absolute scum of the earth."

Ancient1

Originally posted by James Melody


Many of my larger clients have a policy of not giving feedback after an interview. Some will leave people waiting for several months before calling for a second round. I have placed people in jobs who have had a wait of up to 4 months before receiving an offer.

This is part of the problem too, i guess. 4 months :eek: ?? why?

seamus

I can indeed vouch for James, in that I had expressed interest in a job, which I couldn't do at the time, but James offered to contact me when they became free again in a few weeks. He posted the job up here and rang me the next morning. The job wasn't even in his area. That's the kind of approach all consultants should take with their work.

It would also seem that some companies feel 'safe' when using an agency. They can sit back and take their sweet time because the recruitment agency will take all the grief and phone calls.

From personal experience, I've also found that companies that do their own direct recruitment tend to have a better, more organised and fair approach to recruitment and human resources.

Although there are exceptions. I know a guy who applied for a job in intel and heard nothing until they called him for an interview......a year later.

eth0_

Originally posted by James Melody
There are good and bad in any profession. That's life.

Just dont' assume like etho that "I think agencies are the absolute scum of the earth."

Well i've dealt with a lot of agencies in my time and I can honestly say the only decent one i've dealt with is Adecco. I've never dealt with your company so I can't speak for them but come on, there are very very few 'good' agencies in Dublin, as illustrated by some of the other threads on the Work forum.

The Brigadier

Well then qualify your disdain next time please.

You have not dealt with me - ergo you are not in a position to say that all agencies are scum. Never mind the other multitude of agencies you have also not dealt with.

Ancient1

It would also seem that some companies feel 'safe' when using an agency. They can sit back and take their sweet time because the recruitment agency will take all the grief and phone calls.

Not just safe, but some companies just prefer a shortlist of qualified candidates as opposed to being overwhelmed with calls/applications etc, which again puts the onus on the agency to be fair - even though it's a very competitive business.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by James Melody
I have to disagree with you there.

As an example I have a guy stating a new job this monday. I received the spec from the company on the 18th of August Last Year. I was advertising a very real job for nearly 9 months. In that time there were numerous people interviewed but none were deemed the right fit.

I have too much on my plate to be doing posting up live jobs to worry myself popping up non-existent ones.

I would from about 8 in the morning to close to 7 each evening. I work damn hard at my job. I don't have time to waste. I think you will find that anybody who is working in recruitment for more than 6 months is in the situation.

I can understand if the job is specialised and/or senior enough, but we are talking run of the mill jobs that are readvertised ad nausem. YOU may not advertise none existent jobs but I KNOW that some agencies do. I have friends that used to work in agencies and it was common practise to do this to harvest CV's and also to appear to have more work on than they actually do.

This thread is not about you personally James but about other people experiences with agencies. The fact that you don't do these things does not mean others don't do them aswell.

The Brigadier

This thread has made many generalisations that infer that all agencies engage in these practices.

You mentioned that you have friends who used to work in agencys - why don't they anymore?

No successful recruitment professional that I know advertises non existant vacancies. They don't have the time.

The majority of vacancies filled by agencies tend to be specialised. And as such take time to fill.

This whole idea of agencies "harvesting" CVs really is not a common practice.

Recruitment Agencies are regulated by the National Recruitment Federation. We do have codes of practice to adhere to.

I am not taking any of this personally - I just see too many ill informed generalisations being made.

RicardoSmith

If that has been people experience...

Different people have different reasons. More money for one. Babies. Something more interesting. Whats that got to do with anything? Theres life beyond recruitment.

You don't know them all.

I'd have to say most of the roles I see are not specialised. Degree, Diploma, Certifications relevant experience, people skills etc. About 20% would ask for something out of the ordinary. 10 years .net for example, AND 10 years Rocket Scientist fluent in 10 major languages for 10k pa always gets a giggle.

I can see valid business reasons for harvesting CV's. Send us your CV with no reference to any specific job would be harvesting.

Really, do you have a link to those?

How can personal experience be ill informed?

pebble

Originally posted by James Melody


I am not taking any of this personally - I just see too many ill informed generalisations being made.

James Melody.
No offense by this, but yes, you are taking it personally. You are answering generalisations about your industry with answers about your own practises.

Now, fair enough, that's up to you. However, if people do make generalisations, try not to 'over-react'. I cite your Ryanair comment as an example.

The fact of the matter is that a lot of agencies do the things that people mention here. I have witnessed some of these things, and I have endured long weeks of waiting. I ahve also got jobs though agencies before, and I am well aware of who I consider good and who I consider bad.

You just have to accept that job agencies have the same percieved bad reputation that say, letting agencies have.

All you can do is get yourself a good name, but job agencies will always havea bad rep, because quite frankly, most job agents will not get back to you. they will crawl all over you until you are of no use, and then drop you like a sack of manure, they will ignore your calls and emails. Its a thing that they do.

No one has ever said you do it. You would be still posting on the work forum I suspect if WhiteWashMan thought otherwise (he is a very wise person hohoho )


Onwards and upwards, I think that recuitment agencies I have dealt with and have been excellent, have been for positions that were 'higher' shall we say than you average desktop support jockey. However, I think they need to be due to the fact that the higher you go, the more responsible you are, the more senior the position, and the more exposure you have to the outside world, the more contacts you make, the better the networking chances in your industry.

Putting a 20k helpdesk person in a position is not going to pay your wages (unless you get 50 of them) but a project manager with 10 years experience is going to command a high salary, and a high commission.
Its about segmenting your target market. Im not sure that agents really know as much about sales as they should do. for them its a numbers game. i personally feel it should be about relationship sales, but then again,the sales have got to be big ones!

dmd

Hum.

Rather than bitch, I've dug up something I did ages back. Sure it's simple, but if people use it, it'll be ok. Basically it's a no agency allowed website. And it's totally free for companies to post jobs, might encourage more of them to recruit themselves.

There's a beta here , so just give me features you want and ill update it.

There's no jobs on it now, but hopefully there will be soon, if anybody decides to use it.

RicardoSmith

I think you'd have to present it a bit better and advertise it a bit.

dmd

Probably need to advertise a bit and move it to it's final home.

Looks wise, it's staying exactly how it is. I ****ing hate big pictures, and stupid links, and crap ads on crappy sites. Minimalist is good.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by dmd
Probably need to advertise a bit and move it to it's final home.

Looks wise, it's staying exactly how it is. I ****ing hate big pictures, and stupid links, and crap ads on crappy sites. Minimalist is good.

Then I suggest you use small graphics, sensible links, and (if you need them to pay for the hosting and bandwidth) quality ads . Noone interested in watching 14" B&W TV's anymore.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by pebble
James Melody.
No offense by this, but yes, you are taking it personally.

Pebble, I hate to disagree. But the people who have been posting calling agencies scumbags and the scum of the earth are the ones who are taking things personally.

I have simply been replying to juno75's first post.

I have put the case forward that not all agencies are bad. I have explained how I do my job.

Generalisations have been made which I have countered - because I disagree with them.

RicardoSmith

Basically James has a problem with people generalising about agencies if they haven't been to everyone of them and seen every consultant. Of course James can't generalise either and say that agencies don't harvest CV's post fake ads, mess clients around and are unprofessional, unless he knows that first hand about every single agency and recruitment agency.

I don't see how you can dismiss people experiences with agencies by simply saying, well I don't do that. That doesn't negate people personal experiences.

The original poster had a problem with agencies not getting back to him after an interview. Well from James posts you'd think that was a rare occurance. Whereas my own experience I'd say I'm surprised when an agency gets back to me with feedback. In my opinion its normal practice NOT to give feedback. To my mind thats unprofessional, rude and ignorant. But I expect it now.

Which viewpoint best answers and is most useful to the original poster?

The Brigadier

Ricardo you seem to have missed the entire point of my posts.

I object to people referring to agencies as scum of the earth. That is taking things personally.

What I did say was that no successful recruitment professional I know posts fake ads.

"Harvesting" cvs ties in with the above. I don't know any recruitment professionals who engage in this. And we talk.

I don't see how I could have made it any clearer?

I am sorry if you have a personal axe to grind - but thats not my fault.

And to brake the mood down a bit.

RicardoSmith

No axe just very low expectations of agencies. My first contract through an agency was 10yrs ago. Since then my experiences haven't improved. Though I've had many contracts through them. I'd have to say that networking is a more enjoyable and success method of job hunting.

The Brigadier

I think it is best if we leave this topic here. We can go around in circles all day long.

J

eth0_

I'm not taking anything personally. Maybe using the phrase 'scum of the earth' was OTT, but I *do* mean it. Any agency i've ever dealt with bar Adecco have been absolutely useless. They're all over you like a rash until you do the interview and then it's a wall of silence. I very rarely got this when I dealt with a company directly.

Or are extremely rude....a friend of mine was offered a job from a certain agency, decided not to take it and let the guy know this, a couple of days later the phone rings and it's the same recruitment guy, asking 'How much did you earn in X company?!??'. No introduction, no nothing. When my friend told him how much, he said 'ok' in a tone of voice that implied it was an outright lie, and hung up.

Actually James thank you for mentioning that recruitment regulatory body, i've never heard of it before or seen any agency declare themselves a member of it, I think i'll be in contact with them over the agency I mentioned in a previous thread on here.

RicardoSmith

What are the contact details for recruitment regulatory body?

Couch Potato

My experience of agencies is mixed.

Back in the 80's when there were no jobs whatsover in IT agencies were all over you like a rash to go to interviews etc. I did manage to get a job through CPL and I must say I was very satisfied with their service (at the time !!)

When the Celtic Tiger hit they just could not keep up with the jobs that were on offer and NEVER rang you back etc. - there were useless

What I try to do is find out at an early stage who the employer is (if possible) then check their website and apply directly... bypass the agency - remember they get a finders fee and going through an agency actually makes the candidate much more expensive for the company hiring.

Interesting enough I went for an interview with an agency 2 weeks ago and they were pushing hard to say that they had positions with a certain multi-national that needed to be completed asap ... still no communication or feedback ????

I also went for a job some years ago with a company and when they found out what salary I was on they blew a fuse .. the agency had never told them !! I wasted 3 hours of my time (and their time) doing interviews with the key department heads.
Needless to say I never used that particular agency again.