Motor Tax ripoff

Kersh

How can the Government justify the means by which they charge for Road tax. The size of the engine has absolutely nothing to do with how much road you use. And a 2 litre car is not twice the price , but over 3 times the price of a 1 litre car, for a year. Not to mention 3 litre being over a grand a year. anyone else think this is unfair? Its really p****** me off. And while Im at it, the VRT on cars is a ripoff too. 33% of what they value the car at, not what you paid for it. Scumbags.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Kersh
How can the Government justify the means by which they charge for Road tax. The size of the engine has absolutely nothing to do with how much road you use. And a 2 litre car is not twice the price , but over 3 times the price of a 1 litre car, for a year. Not to mention 3 litre being over a grand a year. anyone else think this is unfair? Its really p****** me off. And while Im at it, the VRT on cars is a ripoff too. 33% of what they value the car at, not what you paid for it. Scumbags.

Are you willing to pay €1.50 a litre for petrol then? That's what they did in the UK. A low tax rate and high fuel prices.

silent

Originally posted by Bond-007
Are you willing to pay €1.50 a litre for petrol then? That's what they did in the UK. A low tax rate and high fuel prices.

bring it on. Then again, I think I was the only person getting shell's pura at my gas station
but I dont think this thread has anything to do with a rip off - it's just a stupid tax system

Genghis

I don't know much about the 'mechanics' of the car tax system, but from what you post, I immediately thought of two reasons why the car tax is punatively higher for larger cars:

1. Larger engines are luxury items, they should be taxed more (does anyone actually need an engine over 1 litre?

2. Related to point one, larger engines achieve the same outcome (move from a to b) but do so at a greater environmental cost.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Genghis
I don't know much about the 'mechanics' of the car tax system, but from what you post, I immediately thought of two reasons why the car tax is punatively higher for larger cars:

1. Larger engines are luxury items, they should be taxed more (does anyone actually need an engine over 1 litre?

2. Related to point one, larger engines achieve the same outcome (move from a to b) but do so at a greater environmental cost.

I agree with you on that one. The speed limit is set at 70mph max. Therefore does anyone have any legitimate reason to have a car that can exceed 70mph?

aodh_rua

And another thing - why is a given sized diesel engine charged at the same rate as an equivalently sized pertrol engine?

DaithiSurfer

I don't mind paying car tax.
But what about the new toll roads coming up all over the place.
In my opinion the motorist shouldnt have to pay again to use what they already paid for in their car tax.

I'm working out of the country for 3 months and my car is sitting in the garage at home fully insured and fully taxed and not used. This is unfair.

I would rather tax AND insurance be paid with your petrol. The amount of petrol you use is directly related to how much you use the roads and the size of the engine in your car. You could maybe pay a small premium for theft or any potential damage done to your car while its parked and the insurance for the driving is paid at the petrol pump.

Kersh

That is such a hippy answer. Cars go over 70 on track days. Its nothing to do with the environment. We pay road tax for upkeep on roads, and I fail to see how a 3 litre car uses/and or damages the road more than a 1 litre.

Genghis

Kersh,

just to point out that taxation exists for many reasons, only one of which is the collection of revenues. Tax is also there to distrubute wealth. encourage certain behaviour, discourage others, etc.

I am open to debate, but if you would rather just moan why don't you get a bumper sticker printed up?

dsab

I was always under the impression that Motor Tax is not only for the use of the Roads, but also for polluting the environment...

And it is a fact, that a bigger car causes more pollution then a 1000 cc car.,..

Kersh

It depends on the condition of the engine/catalytic converter as to whether or not a 1 litre pollutes more than a 3 litre.
As for the original post, I asked could anyone explain to me how they JUSTIFY the road tax table.
If it was to do with the environment, then a 2 litre diesel would cost less to tax than a 2 litre petrol.
And a 9/10/11 litre diesel bus should cost about 10000 euro to tax for a year.

bizmark

Originally posted by Kersh
And a 9/10/11 litre diesel bus should cost about 10000 euro to tax for a year.

Trucks ands bus's cost a lot to tax insure and run + a 10 liter 80 seat bus does a better job than one person in a 2 liter car..( Meh i shouldn’t talk my dad has a 2.2 liter car and a 14 liter truck )

Also the average 14 liter truck leave out less carbon etc than the average diesel car because of very strict rules on truck engines same is more than likely true for a bus

Genghis

Kersh, let me ask you a straight question:

Which car uses more of the Earths limited naural resources (petrol or diesel) for a given journey. Is it the 1.0 litre or the 3.0 litre?

silent

Originally posted by Genghis
Which car uses more of the Earths limited naural resources (petrol or diesel) for a given journey. Is it the 1.0 litre or the 3.0 litre?

technically the 3 litre uses more petrol. But as you use more petrol you pay more taxes for the petrol which (in an ideal world) has the environment tax built in (whereas in reality its just a money making tax for the govnmt)

A different point to consider - a 10 year old 1litre will probably do more harm to the environment than a new car which adhers to much stricter emmission laws.

and why should motor tax be tiered for the reason that if you are richer you can afford a bigger enging thus paying more? If you are richer this is covered by income tax - why should a poor sucker wanting something bigger than the standard 1.4-1.8 pay way more money due to an unjust tax?

However I don't see the point of buying an engine bigger than 1.8 in ireland anyway, you can't speed anyway. And the odd overtaking possibility where you could use that more HP is quite rare anyway.

Kersh

A 3 litre uses more of earths natural resources, but I pay for that when I buy petrol., I should not have to pay for it twice by way of road tax. The size of a cars engine has nothing to do withhow much it pollutes. A 1 litre 1992 micra pollutes more than a 2000 3 litre porsche 911, cos the 911 has better emmission controls. That still does not explain the governments thinking behind the road tax rate table.

Sleepy

Abolishing the road tax and puttin the tax directly onto petrol is actually a very sensible idea. That way, road usage is taxed in a directly proportional means to the usage of that road, it also takes account of engine size and actively encourages people to buy fuel efficient cars. WIN/WIN/WIN situation. Very sensible idea, I could see a government involving the Green Party implememting this but unfortunately I don't see the current government going anywhere near it...

Kersh

They should implement something like in UK, whereby a car is given a certain 'pollution number' depending on its emmissions, and your road tax is worked out on that. It is ridiculous having road tax worked out on the size of the engine. Like Silent sais, income tax fleeces the rich. It should not be passed on just cos people want a nice car.
And like I said, quick car for track days.

silverside

I thought all cars since 1992 or 1993 had to satisfy the NCT when it comes to emission controls, have a catalytic converter,etc.

I had a 1992 micra and the NCT cert for it said emisssions : 0.0001 (or something - lots of zero's there!)

Its a myth that properly serviced older cars are polluting.

I agree that emissions should be taxed through fuel. However I dont see anything wrong with taxing big cars on the double, it is basically a luxury tax on people who can afford/want to have big engines. If tax wasn't on that it would have to go onto something else. At least when it is on big cars you can avoid it if you want.

Tom Dunne

Originally posted by Sleepy
Abolishing the road tax and puttin the tax directly onto petrol is actually a very sensible idea.

I agree, but I believe there is an inflationary concern with this option. Not so much any more, but in the past, with inflation running at over double the European average, I don't think the government wanted to add to inflation even more.

I am also in the same position as DaithiSurfer was - my car is sitting in the driveway, taxed up to last February, insured up to May and I am out of the country until the end of the year. I even got a final notice from the Motor Tax crowd saying they would notify the Gardai if I did not tax my car or explain why it wasn't taxed. :mad:

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by tom dunne
I am also in the same position as DaithiSurfer was - my car is sitting in the driveway, taxed up to last February, insured up to May and I am out of the country until the end of the year. I even got a final notice from the Motor Tax crowd saying they would notify the Gardai if I did not tax my car or explain why it wasn't taxed. :mad:

Don't worry about them telling the cops, the cops can only do something if your car is used or parked in a public place. They have no statutory power to ask you why it isn't taxed.

Genghis

Isn't Motor tax essentially a local tax - i.e. it is collected and stays within the county where the car resides? If so, the local authorities would never agree to a petrol tax as effectively they would lose a direct income stream.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Genghis
Isn't Motor tax essentially a local tax - i.e. it is collected and stays within the county where the car resides? If so, the local authorities would never agree to a petrol tax as effectively they would lose a direct income stream.

No it is not a local tax. It all goes into central funds. The local authorites get their money from central funds. It is collected locally but all is paid into central funds.

watty

I can tax and Insure TWO peugeot 106's for the price of one Nissan Praire!
Why do they have a Road Tax disc rather than Petrol Tax?

A fuel tax, taxes usage, environment, size etc. A Road Tax Disc penalises the seldom drivers and subsides the high milage user that has an economic car.

watty

Originally posted by Genghis
Isn't Motor tax essentially a local tax - i.e. it is collected and stays within the county where the car resides? If so, the local authorities would never agree to a petrol tax as effectively they would lose a direct income stream.

Why can't the petrol tax be local? We don't get the fuel through the mail from Dublin. It is bought local too.

sceptre

It'd take a constitutional amendment to officially pay any tax anywhere but into the central fund. The government have made promises and claims about ring-fencing certain taxes in the past - sometimes they carry this out, sometimes they don't. It's still officially paid into the central fund first though and they're not actually obliged to send any of it anywhere in particular (where they have any obligations they can sort it with a simple Act)

Tommy Vercetti

A 3 litre engine is likely to last much longer than a 1 litre engine i.e. do a lot more miles over the course of it's life...in other words there is the added environmental cost of disposing of the smaller car. Also, a 3 litre car is more likely to be safer than a 1 litre car - which would you rather be driving if you were involved in a crash...a 2.9 litre Volvo S80 or a 1.1 litre Fiat Seicento?

Victor

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
But what about the new toll roads coming up all over the place.

Some of theses road are paid for privately, why should you get to use someone else's private property for free? Then there’s a whole slew of congestion, environmental, socio/economic and taxation reasons.

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
I'm working out of the country for 3 months and my car is sitting in the garage at home fully insured and fully taxed and not used. This is unfair.

Then declare it as out of use, don't pay the tax and get a rebate on the (third party) insurance.

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
I would rather tax AND insurance be paid with your petrol. The amount of petrol you use is directly related to how much you use the roads and the size of the engine in your car. You could maybe pay a small premium for theft or any potential damage done to your car while its parked and the insurance for the driving is paid at the petrol pump.

I'm sure this will be popular along the border, where they don't pay the tax, never mind the extra possibility of insurance.

Originally posted by sceptre
It'd take a constitutional amendment to officially pay any tax anywhere but into the central fund. The government have made promises and claims about ring-fencing certain taxes in the past - sometimes they carry this out, sometimes they don't. It's still officially paid into the central fund first though and they're not actually obliged to send any of it anywhere in particular (where they have any obligations they can sort it with a simple Act)

Actually, I think since last year there has been a separate Motor Tax / Local Government fund akin to the Social Insurance Fund and Environment Fund.

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor
Actually, I think since last year there has been a separate Motor Tax / Local Government fund akin to the Social Insurance Fund and Environment Fund.

There may be, I think you're right.

In any case, quickly checking my constitution, my post above is incorrect. There's a "subject to such exception as may be provided by law" in the middle of article 11. So they can send it wherever they like directly.

wishlist.ie

Hi there.. on the subject of road tax i wanted to buy a 2.5 litre engined car but refuse to pay €820 odd euro to drive on these crappy irish roads, well, the roads outside of dublin are ****e at least - most of em are like off road tracks and its a bloody cheek asking that sort of money.

I too think it should be on the petrol. Or if they continue to ask that kind of money then lets see it being put into the roads coz at the moment I don't think it is at all.

My

€0.02!

Ripwave

Originally posted by wishlist.ie
I too think it should be on the petrol. Or if they continue to ask that kind of money then lets see it being put into the roads coz at the moment I don't think it is at all.

Aren't youy lucky - there are local elections in less than 2 months where you can vote for candidates who want to spend more money on roads. They'll all be knocking on your door over the next few weeks, so be sure to tell them what local services you want them to cut so that they can spend more money on roads instead.

wishlist.ie

Originally posted by Ripwave
Aren't youy lucky - there are local elections in less than 2 months where you can vote for candidates who want to spend more money on roads. They'll all be knocking on your door over the next few weeks, so be sure to tell them what local services you want them to cut so that they can spend more money on roads instead.

I would if I was allowed to vote.

Bringing these roads into the twentieth century would also help cut down the amount of carnage we continue to see on an almost daily basis as well, thereby reducing the pressure put on various emergency and medical services.

Victor

Originally posted by wishlist.ie
I would if I was allowed to vote.

Every resident (not citizen) over the age of 18 is allowed vote. Why can't you vote?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1578200#post1578200

wishlist.ie

Originally posted by Victor
Every resident (not citizen) over the age of 18 is allowed vote. Why can't you vote?

Thanks for the info - just didn't know I could. Was told by someone in the same boat as me that he couldn't so I just assumed I couldn't but now it seems that I can - Whoo hoo.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by wishlist.ie
Thanks for the info - just didn't know I could. Was told by someone in the same boat as me that he couldn't so I just assumed I couldn't but now it seems that I can - Whoo hoo.

No, you can't. Also, you must pay me €50 every week or else you will have a fatal bout of hayfever.

wishlist.ie

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
No, you can't. Also, you must pay me €50 every week or else you will have a fatal bout of hayfever.

HA HA HA a hayfever tax I like it.

OHP

Is this the up to date price list for Car Tax in Ireland then?


here

If it is then OUCH!

OHP

sceptre

Yeah, that's the up to date list. Increases running rather faster than inflation.