Bluffing Question

Lafortezza

To be an above-average player at poker, you need to have bluffing as part of your game plan.
I used to bluff very rarely, only really semi-bluff when I had flush/straight outs or had middle pair with a good kicker or similar. Two things have recently changed that:
1) My relatively tight table image. People usually believe me that when I bet I have the goods. In the tamer Fitz competitions with this sort of table image its fairly easy to raise in late position when its checked to you and take it. Everyone probably think you’re having a go at stealing but they’ve nothing to call you with. It has let me get away with lots of bluffs and semi-bluffs to steal blinds and smaller pots.
2) Second last table play. Before the final table is formed the last 2 tables play down to 5 players each. This means the button flies around the table and with blinds rising towards the end of the tournament its almost as if people are taking it in turns to steal the blinds with a late position raise. But you can’t wait until you get a good starting hand to begin making a play for the blinds. You have to risk taking them with absolutely nothing. If you get called then at least you get to see a flop albeit an expensive one.

One thing I’ve found to be a really really strong weapon is the “Check-Raise Bluff”. In early position you check the flop and its checked by the other players to somebody in late position who ‘automatically’ raises in an obvious attempt to take the pot right there and then. When it comes back to you, you make a large re-raise.
The way the Fitz is these days, a check-raise will usually get an “Oooh” or raise a murmur from the table. The late position stealer knows that somebody has put a Move on him and usually folds a bluff or a marginal hand to your check-raise. Its even more satisfying than a regular bluff!

My question is:
How often do you show your bluff??
General poker ideas/theory suggests that you should be seen to vary your game, you should be seen to bluff occasionally. This puts a little bit of doubt in your opponents minds when you bet. Although in the Fitz its rare to see anyone but the more flamboyant players (Norman, Joe, etc) throw down and show a bluff.
So should you show that you bluffed on a particular hand? Is it a bit of an insult to someone like saying ”Hey, check this out, I just won all your money with absolutely nothing!! Fuck you!!”?

By showing a bluff do you lose more when your opponents call your future bluffs compared to what you gain when they see your play as being more unpredictable?

Hyzepher

For me it is all about timing - and timing is a very important part of poker.

If you decide to bluff and then show the bluff then you should be prepared to play tight fo rthe next 20 hands or so - showing bluffs can dramatically change your table image and get people to play differently into you. The trick is to vary your game during the game. Beign able to play loose, tight, ultra tight in varying positions gives your opponents a hard time trying to work out what you have etc.

lafortezza is right when he says that you have to bluff sometimes to be more unpredictable - but timing those bluffs is important and timing has a lot to do with your table image at that time.

If you havea tight image and bluff in early position it is much more likely to succeed than when you have a loose image and bluff in late position.

Hyzepher

DeVore

Originally posted by lafortezza
To be an above-average player at poker, you need to have bluffing as part of your game plan.
I used to bluff very rarely, only really semi-bluff when I had flush/straight outs or had middle pair with a good kicker or similar. Two things have recently changed that:
1) My relatively tight table image. People usually believe me that when I bet I have the goods. In the tamer Fitz competitions with this sort of table image its fairly easy to raise in late position when its checked to you and take it. Everyone probably think you’re having a go at stealing but they’ve nothing to call you with. It has let me get away with lots of bluffs and semi-bluffs to steal blinds and smaller pots.

Absolutely, I'm always careful not to risk so much that I cant walk away from it relatively unscathed if someone calls me and I dont get a flop I like... any flop thats a pile of ****e is a flop I like though because *another* decent raise will generally convince them that I had a pair or high cards and if they got nothing they arent going to keep going.
All the same, whats the point of risking 1000 chips on a bluff to pick up 9 sets of 25 chips if the entire table called... timing and size of bet is important... out of those 9 someone could have a pretty big hand...

2) Second last table play. Before the final table is formed the last 2 tables play down to 5 players each. This means the button flies around the table and with blinds rising towards the end of the tournament its almost as if people are taking it in turns to steal the blinds with a late position raise. But you can’t wait until you get a good starting hand to begin making a play for the blinds. You have to risk taking them with absolutely nothing. If you get called then at least you get to see a flop albeit an expensive one.

Absolutely agree. Second last table is harder to play then last table sometimes! You play down to 4 often before the final table is formed and noone wants to leave the table... and even then you arent in the money!

Last week it took over an hour for us to lose the 11th and 10th place players and the blinds were up at 3K and 6K before we even made the last table!! I stole more then The General but I dont like doing it...

One thing I’ve found to be a really really strong weapon is the “Check-Raise Bluff”. In early position you check the flop and its checked by the other players to somebody in late position who ‘automatically’ raises in an obvious attempt to take the pot right there and then. When it comes back to you, you make a large re-raise.
The way the Fitz is these days, a check-raise will usually get an “Oooh” or raise a murmur from the table. The late position stealer knows that somebody has put a Move on him and usually folds a bluff or a marginal hand to your check-raise. Its even more satisfying than a regular bluff!

Very true but a little dangerous!
Of course the strength of your bluff is inversely proportional to how much it will hurt if you get called.... you have to grasp the nettle or it will sting you badly! Thats what I hate about them...

My question is:
How often do you show your bluff??
General poker ideas/theory suggests that you should be seen to vary your game, you should be seen to bluff occasionally. This puts a little bit of doubt in your opponents minds when you bet. Although in the Fitz its rare to see anyone but the more flamboyant players (Norman, Joe, etc) throw down and show a bluff.
So should you show that you bluffed on a particular hand? Is it a bit of an insult to someone like saying ”Hey, check this out, I just won all your money with absolutely nothing!! Fuck you!!”?

By showing a bluff do you lose more when your opponents call your future bluffs compared to what you gain when they see your play as being more unpredictable?

Its not really an insult (though you can make it one!) but its definitely a poke in the eye! I'll tell you a secret of mine... lots of people tell me I show more cards then I should. I regularly show my hand at a tournie table. My secret is this: I understand that information is power... at a poker table more so then anywhere... I also understand that any time I can get you to either play predictably against me or to misunderstand how I am *actually* playing, I increase the odds of winning in my favour. To this end, if I show hands I *want* you to have that information.
Why would I give you something powerful for no advantage to me?

I either want you to put me on a player-type or wreck your head or change my table image. The other night I wanted to both get right in my opponents face with my bluff (cos it was a beaut I thought ) and also to wreck a table image that was hurting me.


What Hyzepher says is very true too... if you are going to suddenly show a bluff or two (and you have to do it casually so they dont think you are showing them on purpose) then you have to be ready to change your play style to reflect that...
More often I show the good hands and try to get a Newbie Rock image as there is noone easier to take chips off then a person who underestimates you

DeV.

careca

I would rarely show a bluff, unless I was in DeV's position last Sun and trying to get some respect.

A couple of years ago when poker was played in the Colossus I raised pre flop and this little old lady called.

The flop was no good to me but I decided to buy the pot there and then and put in a substantial bet. After about 5 minutes the lady decides to call. Turn came, still no good so I bet even more. This time it takes her about 10 minutes to call (was prob only thirty seconds but it felt like 10 mins). River still didn't improve my hand. I was just pissed off at this stage and went all in. The old lady thought about it again and mucked her cards much to my delight.

Just as I was about to throw my hand in I realised the player on the BB was actually all in on the blinds, so i had to show my hand. I couldn't make another raise all night without someone calling.

Also the little old lady was disgusted with me for the entire night. Lesson learned.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by DeVore
More often I show the good hands and try to get a Newbie Rock image as there is noone easier to take chips off then a person who underestimates you
DeV.

Pesonally I find that works really well too. You'll raise and someone will think for ages then shake their head and fold. If you show them your good hand, it affirms in their minds that they made a correct decision against a solid tight player who only raises with a strong hand. Don't show them the Ace you represented on the next hand was really only 83 offsuit though...

DeVore

Originally posted by careca

Just as I was about to throw my hand in I realised the player on the BB was actually all in on the blinds, so i had to show my hand. I couldn't make another raise all night without someone calling.

Also the little old lady was disgusted with me for the entire night. Lesson learned.

EH?!

What lesson? That sounds like something you should be celebrating!! Now you know you are going to get callers, you should have played it up even more so!! You change your play to Mr Rock but keep the table image of a bluffer!! You never show a hand again (cos now you are only playing decent hands) and any you DO have to put down because you missed your flop you smile sigh and make a show of some chargin about your preflop raise being called!!

ANY one who plays against you in a predictable manner can then be outmanoueved. You need to be able to spot it and to make that shift in your game (not easy) but if you counter their presumption without them realising it you widen the gap between how they PERCEIVE you to be playing and how you are ACTUALLY playing. There is a direct correlation between that gap and how much you are going to get paid.

The biggest lie, by far and away the biggest WHOPPER I have been told about poker is that its a card game. It is in my h*le!

DeV.

ps: who cares if the little old lady got her knickers twisted about her play and blamed you!! I have NO friends around the poker table. I'd bust my own mother if it was a competitive game. Anything else is a backhanded insult. I am polite etc (unless someone is in my face!) and I'll sympathise (as I did when I caught some luck against Luke and Decker the other night) but I dont go to play poker to make friends and my view on any game is that within the confines of the rules of the game, absolutely anything goes. You dont like that... all the better cos you'll make emotional decisions rather then logical ones

Krusty_Clown

careca: I couldn't make another raise all night without someone calling.

This was something that was advocated both in Tony Holden and Phil Hellmuth's poker books..
At the start of a tournament or cash game, if you can make the cost quite minimal, get caught with your hands in the cookie jar, intentionally. e.g. play through an entire hand and lose, revealing some very weak cards... Then play like a rock for the next few hours..

Obviously, only works if you don't know the people you're playing with (and they don't know you).

Davey Devil

Bluffing is a great tool to have in your armour - like I said before there is no better feeling taking down a pot after a bluff. One night in The Fitz I was getting muck the whole night and bluffing was the only way I could win a hand - it turned out to be very effective. Unfortunalty I got addictided to bluffing and for about 3 weeks I was running into trouble everytime I made a bluff (which was far too often).

Since then I have really cut it down, it's worse than giving up cigarettes but I'll still put one in now and again when the timing's right. As for showing cards I make a point about never showing a bluff and rarely showing I had the goods (maybe early on at a table). The less information the better in my opinion. If you show a bluff you put a big fat target on yourself, at a poker table that is not a wise thing to do.

DeVore

You got me hooked on bluffing too, you bad man Mr Devil.... I never used to do it until you eulagised about the rush you get... now I pull a major bluff at least once tournie.
Its absolutely addictive!!

I disagree about the information thing... if I can slip you disinformation about how I am playing, and knowingly do that .. then I've sold you a lie and made you play away from the way you SHOULD play against me. Also if I can predict you I can set you up for a hiding!

I seem to be alone in my belief in the power of disinformation though.... um... forget I said anything

DeV.

MrPudding

Originally posted by DeVore

I seem to be alone in my belief in the power of disinformation though.... um... forget I said anything

DeV.

I am with you on that. I love to bluff. And I usually get away with it. I make a really big effort to be able to say "all in" with nothing or with aces. I'm not saying I preactice in front of the mirror or anything.

I think showing cards at the right time can be useful. I have only really done it once with a goal in mind. That goal was to take all of Amps chips. For some reason there were a large number of hands were it was just us. I kept betting into him really big, mostly he folded. When I had something I did not show then I had nothing I would show. My intention was to get him annoyed. I was goading him into calling, when he did he ran into a monster. This may not work against an experienced player who may spot what you are doing but at the same time everyone is human and prone to get annoyed when some tosser thieves your chips and then rubs your face in it. That's what I think anyway

MrP

DeVore

I also recall Amp's bluff hand beating your bluff hand that night lol!!

I'd forgotten about you though, you are one person who I know is lying because I can see your lips move!

I dont usually show hands in order to piss people off or put them on tilt as such. I just want to be sure I know what they think of me so that I can then play in such a way as to profit from that predictability. Mostly this works in the fitz where I'm not well known as such (and despite winning three times in a row, they still consider me a jammy n00b! ... yay \o/ )

Against the FNWAI guys or the home games we play I dont do it so much because people kinda already have an idea of how I play (or at least enough not to be fooled by my palour tricks )

DeV.

mewso

On the other side of the coin when someone shows a bluff I completely ignore it. I, like Davey, do not show bluffs. Let people wonder.
Last 2 tables of a tourney or last 4/5 on the final table is a different situation. Everyone is bluffing from time to time and everyone knows that everyone is bluffing from time to time because you have to.