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planning permission

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  • 20-04-2004 10:03am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭


    I recently learned that my next door neighbour has obtained planning permission for an extension to their house. I have seen the plans and my neighbour is claiming part of my garden. He is laying sewerage pipes on my property and also has a door opening on to my property. I have seen the outline map of the house in the planning office in Dublin and it shows that this lland is mine. However the map that he has for the plans has an additional red marker claiming that this is his. His planning permission has already been granted but surely he cannot build on my land. Has anyone got any ideas on how I can put a stop to this


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Dave


    First thing to do would be contact the council I suppose. I'm no expert mind. Didn't you have the oppurtunity to lodge a complaint? Wasn't their a sign outside their house and a notice in the local newspaper?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    The Land Registry has the 'Folio Maps' showing (pretty much) for sure who owns what. As you are in Dublin I suggest you get thine buttocks down there and get your folio.

    The fact that it is your land (if that is indeed a fact) will be the key to any action you take in future in re this development. A cousin of mine is squatting a laneway in a valuable part of Dublin simply because he has a right of way on it that is written into his title. The laneway takes up over 1/4 of an acre in D(low even number digit) and the cousin is not being offered enough to permit that this right of way be extinguished forever. I have assisted him by pretending to be a buider from the Wesht who is interested in 'diviloping' it, that was a gas I must admit.

    I also assume that there is a copy of this folio of yours lying around your solicitors office , or that the solicitor has the folio number which is what the Land Regsitry needs to pull a map ....and that a stinking letter can be sent to your neighbour to stall this process while the who owns what for sure bit is established.

    If you have never seen the folio or know the number then you are somewhat remiss, get it now, start with your solicitor .

    Have you tried the quiet word over the hedge, it is possible that somebody has made a genuine mistake with the folios here ....even if that somebody was a dodgy solicitor back in 1956 who has since died. It happens. It is also possible that your neighbour is a thief and a scoundrel and has no title at all nor an agreement from you to sell to him in lieu (a subject to PP agreement for example ) .

    M


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭leonotron


    When did you buy your house? Do you still have the maps from the surveyor or solicitor that mark your boundries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Finally there is the issue of Squatters Rights after 12 or 14 years of UNCHALLENGED use of Land or of a House (without paying any form of Rent during that time including Ground Rent) . There is some really complicated **** if your neighbour bought the ground rent from the original owner that you may have paid it too. You need a good solicitor in that case and not a recntly qualified junior type one.

    EG: If your oul fella sold a chunk of the back garden to the neighbour in 1980 but if the wall remained in place as before and as it still is AND you continued to use it as a back garden then you can claim it back as your property under Squatter Rights. You must prove you used it and not the neighbour.

    Have you videos of your sprogs playing there in Summer 1991 and stuff that you can use as evidence, (and to get statements from the other people who thankfully remember being at the party :) ) .

    M


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭2142


    I have already seen the folio map and it shows that the land is actually mine. I already sent in an objection to the planning board with this information but they still granted planning permission. I need to know what is the next step that I should take. I have even spoken to the guy that used to own the house and he has confirmed that this is my land.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Obviously he can't build on or under your land without your permission.
    I don't know, but don't the council have to issue a judgement, or a reason why an objection was upheld or rejected? If they do, find out why they deemed it ok for him to build on your land....*boggle*
    Smells of brown envelopes and backscratching to me tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Originally posted by 2142
    I have already seen the folio map and it shows that the land is actually mine. I already sent in an objection to the planning board with this information but they still granted planning permission. I need to know what is the next step that I should take. I have even spoken to the guy that used to own the house and he has confirmed that this is my land.

    Fhuck Meeee :(

    Have you checked his folio (the guy that used ta own the house could get you the number from his solicitor )

    What kind of solicitor do you have ??????

    I would contact Frank Mc Donald in the Irish Times about this , it sounds well crooked if there was no agreement to sell this guy the land and if the guy did not own it already, I though you had to have 'an interest' in land to apply for PP . An interest is ownership or agreement to sell.

    What interest did he indicate on the PP form , the one that says full/outline and the size of the property in M2 , it should have a slot where the applicant explains their 'interest ' in the land where they are applying.

    Do tell how it goes and name the Council that allows this shenanigan to go on .


    M


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭2142


    I have seen his folio map. It is the same as mine except that he has marked out in red a portion of my land (that he is claiming) where he is putting the door out onto my land and where the pipes are being laid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,514 ✭✭✭Sleipnir


    Definately a trip to the land registry is required.
    Or better, engage a solictor to do this for you as they will also know the law on access rights which is a minefield to say the least.
    Do it quickly though as once he starts building it will get more and more difficult to prevent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭thegills


    I already sent in an objection to the planning board with this information but they still granted planning permission
    Is this the County Council or An Bord Pleanala? You can appeal CC decisions to ABP. If ABP granted permission then you need a good solicitor.

    In the mean time as you legally own the piece of land why not build something in the affected area that does not require planning permission, to thwart him so to speak. If he starts to demolish it then call the Guards and show them the the maps.

    thegills


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭2142


    Do you have any idea how I get in contact with land registry. Is this not the same place that sends out the folio maps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,514 ✭✭✭Sleipnir


    http://www.landregistry.ie/

    It is the same place but if you drop in and tell them there is a boundary dispute they may be able to help decide who own what.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    My aunt had some trouble recently with a housing development which was being constructed at the back of her house. Without her permission they knocked down the boundary wall and wouldn;t put anything back up, leaving the back of my aunts garden and house exposed to the new estate.

    My father, being an agressive type of man when it comes to this, took her land deeds which she had just gotten from the land registry, and got a stinking solicitors letter written to the company, which then surprisingly agreed to construct whatever type of boundary wall my aunt wanted.

    So, first of all, check your land deeds as held in the land registry. If this is your land, get a good solicitor and get an injunction or lodgement against his construction. Don't be afraid to make a stink over this, this land is your piece of the world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭Occidental


    The land registry has offices dotted all over Dublin, with each office dealing with degined areas of the country. Have a look at landregistry.ie and dig out the relavent office.

    BTW: What kind of boundary have you got between this part of the garden and your neighbour (fence, wall, tree's)?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 843 ✭✭✭DaithiSurfer


    My mother had a neighbour who decided to build an extension (one of the one you dont nee planning for ) beside her house.
    When i called out the guy had knocked down the wall and was replaceing this wall with the wall of his extension. Also destroyed her garden that she had been working on for 20 years.
    She was in tears. I had a row with the builder and the owner and they basicly said they had the right to do this.
    After some checking with a local builder (friend of mine) i found out that the guy had no right to knock the wall.
    The wall divides the gardens. I was advised that if the neighbour went ahead and took this part of the wall that if my mum ever wanted to build an extension it would have to be a certain distance inside her own garden. In effect this guy had got space for nothing and had no right to the wall.

    Anyway to shorten the story i called the cops and told them that they had ruined the garden and knocked down a wall that was only half theirs and wanted the work stopped. They stopped it and the guy had to build inside his side of the wall.

    Moral : Never ever let a neighbour use the dividing wall for an extension unless you are both building one and using the same wall for both. You only lose out this way.

    Also, use the cops. They can help.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Originally posted by thegills
    Is this the County Council or An Bord Pleanala? You can appeal CC decisions to ABP. If ABP granted permission then you need a good solicitor.

    In the mean time as you legally own the piece of land why not build something in the affected area that does not require planning permission, to thwart him so to speak. If he starts to demolish it then call the Guards and show them the the maps.

    thegills

    A slurry tank would be nice :D They look lovely at this time of year when the schteam is rising in the morning.

    Get your ex neighbour to get a copy of the folio from his solicitor and compare them , minutely. Your current neighbour may have played fast with it.

    You will also need a practising Chartered Suryeyor to confirm that there is no overlap whatsoever and to certify that the PP was on your land and not his. That is a key part of the planning appeal or of an injunctoin (see below) .

    Marking maps in red means nothing , I have done it meself when required...after a copy was made for example.

    TheGills is right about enforcement, County Council planners are less than useless in this regard. If you are time barred from ABP then either

    1. Write legal stinker to Chief planner quoting the penalty provisions in the 2000 planning act and saying you will personally sue him if the development goes ahead, that usually gets them out

    2. Simultaneously get injunction in High Court to freeze the issue while the folios are compared, the surveyors oipinion should do and I believe a solicitor can sort injunctions for about €2k or so. If your neighbour (or his solicitor) tampered with the folio that is an actionable issue but try to use the circuit court and keep the damages below 30k including all your costs and time , otherwise you will wait 3 years for a hearing in the High Court. The Circuit Court is 12 months or so.

    HTH

    M


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭2142


    I would love to be able to take this route but I dont have anywhere near £30000 to bring it to court


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Would Free Legal Aid be anyway useful in planning problems?

    Anyway a solicitors letter doesn't cost much and is often enough to make people pause for thought.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    cost about €5k to bring it to the Circuit Court. , you ask for €30k MAX for all the grief and costs.

    Your neighbour may be betting on that as it happens.

    Build an exempted development at the back of your garden, a shed of some sort, or a kiddies play house,. The guards can be really mean to people who are mean to kiddies play houses. Video the damn thing from every angle at a kiddies party the next weekend .

    You could get better advice if you weren't so slow to explain everything BTW !

    M


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    have you talked to your neighbour?
    No point escalating it until you have to, after all, he's next door to you for as long as you live there.
    Perhaps get your solicitor to show you the maps surrounding your property; he must have a copy as the selling of a house cannot go through without them. When you have the map you’ll know what the next step is.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 289 ✭✭Fudger


    Firstly get onto the Council right now and object and give out stink....... at least then its on record........ make a note of when you contacted everyone.. ie: the guy who used to own the house the neighbour, when you went into the council office etc...... a solicitor will want that from the outset.

    what kind of an area is your house located? ie: housing estate or a string of relatively small one off developed houses?

    approximatley how much is the encroachment ?

    Have you got the deeds to your house ? If not get a copy ASAP.

    Get a scaled copy of his folio and your folio showing full burdens ie:rights of way etc if any. Most likely at a scale of 1/2500 but Land registry are transfering to 1/1000 at the moment.

    Get an Ordnance Survey Urban Place map of the area showing his lands and yours at a scale of 1/2500 and 1/1000 and plot the folio boundaries onto the up to date urban place map. Folio's are usually very very old and have no land features to take references from. Get a surveyor or engineer from the golden pages and they would do it for you.

    Folios have a very thick line denoting the area in ownership.....ALWAYS READ THE FOLIO BY TAKING THE INNER EDGE OF THIS LINE AS THAT IS THE LEGAL BOUNDARY..

    If you have any pics it might be a bit clearer as to where you are talking about.

    It sounds very strange indeed.


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