Surprise, Surprise, Bush goes with Israel

flogen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3627001.stm

President George W Bush has backed Ariel Sharon's controversial template for the future of the Middle East.
He called the Israeli leader's plan to withdrawal from some Palestinian territory "historic and courageous".

Mr Sharon proposes unilaterally pulling Israelis out of the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank - and keeping some Palestinian land in the West Bank.

Palestinians reacted angrily, with leader Ahmed Qurei saying it "kills the rights of the Palestinian people".

So it looks like the already decided roadmap to peace is gone out the window in favour of what looks like a much more unbalanced plan.
I dont know the ins and outs of each plan so well, so I cant comment at the moment, views on this anyone?

Flogen

daveirl

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bonkey

Originally posted by flogen
So it looks like the already decided roadmap to peace is gone out the window

Well, in fairness, neither side were living up to their part of the roadmap agreement. Neither side admitted to this. Both sides were adamant that the other was in violation of the agreement.

This new development isn't so much that the roadmap has gone out the window, but rather that the window that the roadmap went out of some time ago has now been nailed shut, had bullet-proof glass installed, and is pretty much ensuring that the roadmap doesn't ever have a hope to get back.

in favour of what looks like a much more unbalanced plan.

I just don't understand the Israeli mentality. They claim that this is a "disengagement", but realistically, its simply redrawing the borders to a new position which will remain equally unacceptable to Palestinians. Its not going to result in a decrease of violence because some territory was not handed back - it will more likely lead to an increase in violence as Israel seems to be playing this as some sort of more permanent solution.

Not only that, but Sharon made some comments a few weeks ago that the Israeli "disengagement plan" would also result in the delaying of the creation of a formal Palestinian State, for years if not longer. I'm not sure of the details of how that is so....but the first time I read that I immediately thought that this is quite possibly one of the underlying reasons for the action.

Its interesting that Bush has given his support to a plan which - as I said - Sharon has stated will somehow prevent or delay the formation of a Palestinian state as a result of its enactment. Its interesting because the last I heard, his (Bush's) vision was still to have a Palestinian State by next year sometime. WEird that - when Bush was building his roadmap, he made it abundantly clear that there could never be a solution, and/or peace, without a Palestinian nation. Now, he's giving his blessing to a plan which will delay/prevent the formation of a Palestinian State, and hailing it as a brave and courageous move on the road to peace.

jc

flogen

I assume (somewhat cynically perhaps) that the Isreali mindset is the following:
they want to hold onto as much as they can, and they dont want a Palestinian state set up. This offer will be rejected by Palestine, there is little doubt of that. The fact that Bush, and others (i think the UK has backed it too) support this unworkable plan means that when its rejected, Isreal can say they are being unreasonable, and they will never agree to peace etc etc. This makes Isreal look like the morally supreme good guys, and Palestine look like nothing but a bunch of un-cooperative terrorists.

It is strange that Bush has given support for the points you made, Bonkey, it seems like his amnesia has kicked in again, and all he can think is 'Jewish vote! jewish vote! jewish vote!'

Flogen

daveirl

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flogen

well, whats wrong with it is that votes should not be more important than a lasting peace between Israel and Palestine, naturally most politicians nowadays will do what they can to stay in office, but that doesnt make it right.
tbh I'd say that most US Jews are sensible enough to understand the situation, and know that Palestine needs to be a free state for peace to ever come about, this decision by Bush is just his attempt to solidify support from the Jewish community (although Im also sure most of them arent just going to be looking to Israel for inspiration with their votes, Bush seems to think they will) rather than take the chance.
Putting individual gains before the lives of God-knows how many people that may die in future conflict due to a lack of agreement is horribly wrong IMO.

Flogen

halkar

Another stupid move from Bush and people still wonder why these people in Middle East hate US and Israel so much. Who do they really think they are that deciding for Palestinians on their behind? Is Bush really trying to stop terrorism or encourage it?

Seaneh

In fairness they are conceeding a lot more than The arabs would if the situation was in reverse.

They are totally pulling out of Gaza, and they are all but saying they will pull out of the West back, besides the larger settlements, which is understandable, for them pull out of the larger settlement would me idiocy, a lot of them are as big as what we would call large towns (Athlone, Sligo, etc) and If they pulled out the people living there would refuse to go, and it would lead to a slaughter of thousands of "Jews", also they have made what was wasteand into an area with a decaint infostructure, roads, irrigation systems, farms and the like, would you give it all up? Doubtfull.

I reckon they are being the more progressive side, I mean what has the PA premier done since he has come to office? Not a whole lot.

halkar

Seaneh, they stole the land and bring people from ex Soviets and paid them to settle on, Palestinians didn't asked them to build roads or whatever they did. They ignore the UN borders. Why do you think they always go to US instead of UN? Shouldn't you think Palestinians be included in their talks instead of being ignored? Pulling out of Gaza doesn't mean much as with a proper peace plan including both parties I don't see any reason why Jewish can't live in Gaza or any other Palestinians towns. They have lived together for hundreds of years and this is nothing to do with Muslims or Jews, it is their politics that is preventing peace there not their religions. Bottom line is Mr. Bush's support for Mr. Sharon which would not be supported by many countries, in return Palestinians ignored as well as rest of the world. I think if Israel wants to be accepted, they should at least start trying to fix their relations with UN and resolve their differences with Palestinians in UN instead of using US for everything and causing more hate in the region for both Isreal and US with the costs of innocent lives.

Agent Smith

to be frank the most intelegent thing to come out of bush's mouth was the pretzil he was choking on...

daveirl

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halkar

Why would it be impractical? Look at the Cyprus issue that is on going at the moment. Both Turks and Greeks are going to referandum to rejoin and when or should I say if they rejoin some of the Turkish land will be given to Greek part as part of the agreement and there are Turkish people lives on those lands. Both Turks and Greeks had much to hate eachother and their hate goes far more than Israelis and Palestinians. Maybe not relevant to this post but at least they are trying with the help of UN and both governments.
Having excuses of saying that they build roads , infastructure whatever doesn't mean anything. As I said, it was taken from the Palestinians, even if there was no one living on those lands Israel had no right to claim on them nevermind building on. Same issue with Golan Heights that was taken from Syria. Under UN maps none of those lands are shown under Israel borders.

Unfortunately for Palestinians it will never be acceptable what Israel is doing and to me it looks like they just want to control these people forever. If it was other way around and Palestinians was invading Israeli lands, do you think if they go to Mr. Bush with a plan like this and Mr. Bush will be happy with it?

As said previously, US should stop interfering with Palestinian and Israel issue and send them to UN to resolve. Looks like only time Israel recognise UN was when they were formed as country, after that they don't care and listen UN. Of course with US backing and vetoing anything against them.
And our average Americans wondering why those people hate US so much. They have no one but their corrupt politics and politicians to blame.

Lastone

The west and the Arab world are at the moment heading on a collision course. Lunatics like Osama Bin Laden are gaining a foothold and moderate Arab leaders are on the decline. Young Muslims, (BTW I am an atheist) see that if you are an Arab and do not tow the line. You get smacked down.

Israel with France and Great Britain were the aggressors in the Suez crises in the 50’s. The six-day war was started by Israel. Boarders of neighboring countries mean nothing to the Israeli government. (Look at Lebanon and the air attacks on Syria.)

In the case of Iraq one could argue that Hussein’s war with Iran was as an agent of the U.S. His one big mistake was Kuwait. George Bush Senior smacked him down and Junior finished him off. Meanwhile the main aggressive force in the Middle East is still allowed to operate unrestrained. In fact Israel gets a reward. The settlements in the west bank.

The U.S. has set itself up as the world police. But operates also as judge and jury. It’s treats other counties in away that it would not allow it’s own citizens to be treated. Instead of being an honest broker it acts as a partisan participant. No greater example of the duplicity of the U.S. can been seen than in the role that it plays in Iraq. It wants a democratic and free Iraq, but is not willing to allow direct elections because it would not like the Shiite clerics that would be elected.

Saddam Hussein may have breached the cease-fire 17 times. Israel has ignored the United Nations for over 35 years. U.N. Security Council Resolution 242 calls on Israel to withdraw from all occupied territories. Israel still holds The West Bank, the Golan Heights and a nice part of Lebanon.

We are still looking for Saddam Hussein’s “WMD.” Israel’s nuclear capability is undisputed.


Don’t get me wrong; if I was Jewish and living in Europe in the 1940’s I’m not sure I would have acted any differently from what was done. That however, does not make it right, and the double standards and hypocrisy shown by the U.S. Does not help.
:eek:

vorbis

In fairness the 6 day war was more a pre-emptive strike against armies that were about to attack them. Or maybe you'll say the Egyptians were on "military excersises":rolleyes: This deal is a bit one sided but at least the Israelis are withdrawing from some Palestinian land. The biggest problem for the Palestinians is the lack of a central leader. Arafat no longer has control over groups like Hamas. This means that its near impossible to hold effective negotiations with them.

Lastone

Originally posted by vorbis
In fairness the 6 day war was more a pre-emptive strike against armies that were about to attack them. Or maybe you'll say the Egyptians were on "military excersises":rolleyes: This deal is a bit one sided but at least the Israelis are withdrawing from some Palestinian land. The biggest problem for the Palestinians is the lack of a central leader. Arafat no longer has control over groups like Hamas. This means that its near impossible to hold effective negotiations with them.

One wonders how much of a war footing the Egyptions and Syrians were on since their respective airforces were destroyed on the ground. If I was about to invade a country I would at the very least increase air patrols. Of course we are relying on intelligence reports that say troops were massing on the boarder. Maybe these same troops are the ones that have the Iraqi WMD

daveirl

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