whats wrong with ENT ?

McClane

I noticed some people in their posts didn't really like ENT. why ? I think ENT is the best show since TNG. Voyager was just ...crap. pure utter pond sludge is too good a category for voyager and DS9. Well DS9 was good because of the war and even then the writers managed to fill it up with a few ****e episodes.

ENT is the first ST to actually put the federation as the underdogs ...to almost everyone and i think thats a class idea.

So whats wrong with it ?

User45701

It dosent follow the timeline.

Stark

Bad casting mostly IMO.

Writing that comes nowhere near to realising the potential of the show's idea.

Pigman II

1. Dull crew characters. I've watched at least a dozen episodes now and there's still one or two principal characters whose names escape me. All of which lead me to believe that they're just not very interesting - either that or I have Alzheimers.

2. Too much tame sexuality. Better to have none at all than this PG-11 crap that is supposed to 'turn me on'. It's embarrasing.

3. Messes with the timeline.

4. Terribly stupid and excessibely gung-ho dialogue that would make Patrick Stewart turn in his gravitas.

5. The 'praise Jesus' theme-music (and it's series 3 refit that is SOMEHOW even WORSE than the original).

6. Too much lazy 'referencing' thown in for a laugh. 'This is called a trans......porter!', 'our phasers can both STUN and KILL', 'We're hoping to break the warp 6 barrier some day!' *wink* *wink* etc etc :rolleyes:

kencleary

For me its the lack of anything new or inventive in Enterprise. Each previous Trek series did something original. ToS obviously was the first but then Next Gen created a very different atmosphere and ethos for the show and it did the moral conundrum episodes extremely as well as some ingenious aliens (The Borg). It also grew over the seasons and in fact one of its best shows (The Inner Light http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~hwloidl/TL/tng5/innerlight.html) wasn't really sci-fi at all. DS9 never quite lived up to its original premise. It tried to tackle subjects such as belief, science vs religion and to show the darker side of the federation and though it often failed it was ocassionally brilliant. For examples here see In The Pale Moonlight (possibly the single best trek episode ever) and Inter Armin ? Silent Leges.

Voyager for me was where it all started to fall apart. Pointless technobabble, poor cast, terrible plots etc etc. Even here though i'd admit that it began to imporve towards the end, though I hate the way they reduced the once implacable Borg to boring villains of the week outwitted at every turn by Janeway.

Enterprise to me just seems to offer nothing new to the franchise. They have to dredge up the villains of other series' (Borg, Romulans etc) and the whole temporal war thing seems just to be a plot device to allow the writers take whatever liberties they feel like with regards to continuity and smacks of laziness on their part. Last nights episode was a case in point, it seemed to just be an episode of Stat Trek: The Soap Opera and even when its good it still dumbs it down likle last weeks episode.

Its sad to say but I think It may be time the franchise died for a decade or so and is only brought back when it has something new to say.

(Edit) Oh yeah and everything Pigman II said too!!!!!

DrEvil

I personally like enterprise and think it's good. Don't mean this in a bad way, but will you serious trek nuts please stop moaning like old men who are afraid of a bit of change and have some real discussions about enterprise .
One thing i think is great about enterprise is the whole altered time line plot running from the start of the show. I applaude the writers for daring to do it. Have you never wondered that the writers did this so nobody watching will know what happens. Even the people who know everything about the star trek universe and it's 'history' can still be shocked and suprised when major events happen. I'd think they'd like us to speculate on whether they'll will fix the timeline or not and how it's done. People moan about how the timeline is wrong but maybe it's right and this is how the federation really came about.

Remember at the end of the day it's just TV

McClane

>>It dosent follow the timeline

I really fail to see why this is a bad point ? When has the timeline followed the timeline ? Whos to say that everything happening in Enterprise is not whats meant to happen.

Besides i think its great it doesn't follow the timeline because we don't know whats going to happen. Maybe an ancestor of Janeway was in Florida when the weapon went off and hopefully she was never born. Maybe the Federation will turn out to be a very different entity then from TNG etc.

>>Writing that comes nowhere near to realising the potential of the show's idea.

Agreed to a point. I think theres been some fantastic episodes and this weapon attacking earth craic is a great story if they do it properly.

>>Dull crew characters.

Your the kind of person who likes a betazoid, klingon and ferengi/andorian/iraqi on the bridge at all times ?
I'm sick of the shows where half the interesting positions are filled with blue skinned, green eyed superhuman strength aliens.

If you mean just dull human characters then yeah some of them are. But i like malcolm, archer and trip. yoshi and that guy who drives the ship are brutal.

>>Too much tame sexuality

And there were so many topless women in TNG weren't there ?

>>Terribly stupid and excessibely gung-ho dialogue

I'm not sure what you mean. If your talking about the Cursing in it, i think thats the best thing since the borg.

>>The 'praise Jesus' theme-music

meh, not any worse then any of the others. I don't pay much heed to any theme music.

>>Too much lazy 'referencing' thown in for a laugh.

Yes that is annoying. Very Annoying. The last time they started on about the transporter i let the girlfriend watch 5 minutes of cornation st.

McClane

>>For me its the lack of anything new or inventive in Enterprise.

...... Its a whole new TimeLine! Earth was Attacked! Archer has a potty mouth!

What exactly do u mean "New" ? Its before all the other series u seen they are hardly going to have new kinds of thingy magigys.

>>Each previous Trek series did something original

....and they all sucked besides TNG. The only thing that made DS9 bareable was the war. Voyager had a fairly good storyline starting off, its amazing how the writers/actors/etc turned it into a complete load of muck.

How can you not see what Enterprise is doing is Original ? Personally i'd like to see the old trek way of doing things back. When every crewman wasn't waiting in line to die for his shipmates and they actually acted like ...dare i say it .. people! In DS9/Voyager and even some TNG the characters are like zombies in the prusuit of the greater federation good and are absolutely selfless. They fight over who gets to die for the others. Unrealistic dribble.

Give me Sulu and Scotty and bar fights.

I think Enterprise has the potential of going down that line. Where else would u see the chief of security and the commander of a marine detatchment fighting over their pride ? Not on DS9 anyways. ODO just got huffy when the federation security lad tried to take over.

Pigman II

Your the kind of person who likes a betazoid, klingon and ferengi/andorian/iraqi on the bridge at all times ?

Am I? Picard was my favorite from TNG and Sisko from DS9 so I've nothing against humans I'm glad to report. Whilst I also liked the generic 'How Human Am I?' characters like Data/Spock/TheDoctor I can't say I'm a fan of 'generic alien' guys like Worf/Dax/Troi etc

If you mean just dull human characters then yeah some of them are. But i like malcolm, archer and trip. yoshi and that guy who drives the ship are brutal.

Weird cos those are the two in particular I was thinking about! I'm also glad to hear you refer to him 'that guy who drives the ship' as it shows I'm not alone in my indifference. Out of interest does anyone know that guys name without looking it up?

Now I'll agree with you that Yoshi/Lt.Token definetly are the worst but at the same time Malcolm/Archer/Trip aren't much better. Sure they're more 'in your face' but they're equally stiff and unengaging IMHO.

And there were so many topless women in TNG weren't there ?

No there wasn't. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Unlike TNG/DS9/VOY Enterprise is trying to 'sex it up' to appeal to a different market but it's just coming off as tacky and amateurish voyeurism. It should either get down to a bit of Matrix2 (or was it 3?) level v.soft porn (which it won't ever do) or just scrap this 'ooh I'm almost at first base' rubbish.

I'm not sure what you mean. If your talking about the Cursing in it, i think thats the best thing since the borg.

Funny, I haven't heard a single 'fcuk' or a 'sh1t' yet from any of them so whatever they're doing it isn't cursing. All they're spouting is a bit of verbal tokenism to make ST seem 'cool' for the teens. It's exactly like the sex stuff I mentioned earlier. My feeling is, yeah fair enough, do it or don't do but at least don't be half-hearted about it because it just comes off like a lack of conviction on the part of the producers.

But no the 'cursing' wasn't exactly what I was particularily refering to .

W.R.T. 'Gung Ho' dialogue I was talking about the pro-active characters (esp Archers) 'to hell with this, to hell with that' attitude to everything that doesn't suit them. Fine you've established you're a bit of a rebel so does that mean we have to put up with your 'my way or the highway' hissy-fits in EVERY SINGLE EPISODE?

W.R.T. 'Stupid' dialogue take the example at the end of SkyOnes ep last Monday. When they're leaving the pink-sticky-glob-ball (or whatever it was) Archer says 'Get us out of here' to Lt.Token. Now any ST fan would know the typical response to that would be 'Aye Captain' or if they're on buddy terms Token might say 'With Pleasure'. But no, Tokens response was 'I'd love to' which in inself sounds stupid and ghey but more importantly implies that Archers request was something he was unable to fulfill. Yeah, I know it's just a minor thing that 99% of viewers probably missed but It's just little things like this that get up my nose and worse they seem to be prolific.

meh, not any worse then any of the others. I don't pay much heed to any theme music.

Exactly, you shouldn't have to pay much heed. It's like a referee in a football match. The more unnoticable he is - the better the job he's doing. But the fact that Enterprises theme sticks out like a sore thumb shows it's not working as a theme. Not to mention I feel like I should be clutching a bible and/or waving the US flag whilst it plays. If I was a cynical person I might suggest its only even there because of post-9/11 sentimental fallout. I don't know, maybe SpiderMan knows?

Yes that is annoying. Very Annoying. The last time they started on about the transporter i let the girlfriend watch 5 minutes of cornation st. [/B]

And she was glad to get them!

TCamen

I can understand the whole upset some people feel with regards the timeline, but I don't really agree. I've said before, I wouldn't want to watch a show when you know everything that's gonna happen because it's set in the past. Fine some people want to see the whole setting up of the Federation and all, but I don't really see the excitement there. I don't know what it's such a big mark against the show because the writers decided to change the timeline for the sake of entertainment.
I didn't like the show in season 1 or 2 because it was full of mediocre standalone, recycled plots. I'm back on board with the show now simply because the arc is good, and I like watching it unfold week after week. If it goes back to standalone episodes next season (however long it may be) I probably won't be too bothered watching it religiously week after week, if at all.
Last night's episode showed that the writers are at least trying to develop some of the characters. I think Mayweather, the helm officer is a lost cause at this stage, but the other characters are being fleshed out(pun intended).

RE: The theme song. Would you really not watch a show because it has a crap theme song? I can't count the amount of series that have seriously lame opening credits/songs, but it wouldn't put me off watching them! For example, I hate that Elvis 'A Little Less Conversation' remix, but it's the theme for Las Vegas on Sky One. I can see myself muting it every week!
As for the lyrics, personally I just figure that with the song & the visuals they were going for man's whole quest to get out into space. I don't get any religious connotations from it. 'Faith of the heart' doesn't have to be faith in God. For the "not gonna keep me down" bit, could be intended to mean that the Vulcans discouraged space travel and tried to keep humans from exploring the galaxy for so long. I dunno, I never thought about the song that much before now

It´s been a long road, getting from there to here.
It´s been a long time, but my time is finally near.
And I will see my dream come alive at last. I will touch the sky.
And they´re not gonna hold me down no more, no they´re not gonna change my mind.
Cause I´ve got faith of the heart.
I´m going where my heart will take me.
I´ve got faith to believe. I can do anything.
I´ve got strength of the soul. And no one´s gonna bend or break me.
I can reach any star. I´ve got faith, I´ve got faith, faith of the heart.

bizmark

Originally posted by McClane
>>It dosent follow the timeline

I really fail to see why this is a bad point ? When has the timeline followed the timeline ? Whos to say that everything happening in Enterprise is not whats meant to happen.

Besides i think its great it doesn't follow the timeline because we don't know whats going to happen. Maybe an ancestor of Janeway was in Florida when the weapon went off and hopefully she was never born. Maybe the Federation will turn out to be a very different entity then from TNG etc.

EH! If it doesnt follow the timeline already set by 40 years of star trek then it is either a alternaive universe or pure crap

I just dont get theis so called star trek "fans" who dont care about the timeline "OH L33T MAN AKIRAPRISE HAS A TRANSPORTER AND PHASERS!!!" its people like that who are in charge of star trek right now and thats the main problem.Also the fact some fans with accpet any crap shown with out question is a major problem as well

Woden

right here i go i'm gonna respond to this thread here I go......

bah i couldn't be arsed if you don't like it don't watch it no ones forcing ya's to.

i enjoy it, its got faults so had the other series and i could argue just as much about peoples points on TNG, DS9 and VGR. oh and as a btw i like the music but i don't like what they did with it this season preferred it the other way, but i do like the way they put star trek onto the title screen

data

DrEvil

everybody knows the timeline is changed but nobody ever said it was permanent. IMO the whole point is to imagine how it could of gone wrong and what will happen to fix it. I believe at some stage they will do some sort of big reset with the timeline and it could be very interesting if they do it right

SantaHoe

I thought Voyager and TNG were crap until I watched a good few episodes and got to know the chars... so when I started watching Enterprise, I thought it would be the same deal... but the charictors are too bland or something, so I never got into it.

I think they should have followed Voyager with a new series where the best people from the Voyager crew are taken and put in command of a borg cube along with the best of the Next Generation crew.
Or did they already completely wipe out the borg in the final of Voyager, I can't remember... anyway bring them back! The borg were cool.
Or those drug-taking warrior-race from DS9, what were they called again? Dominion warriors or something wasn't it?

User45701

Originally posted by McClane

How can you not see what Enterprise is doing is Original ? Personally i'd like to see the old trek way of doing things back. When every crewman wasn't waiting in line to die for his shipmates and they actually acted like ...dare i say it .. people! In DS9/Voyager and even some TNG the characters are like zombies in the pursuit of the greater federation good and are absolutely selfless. They fight over who gets to die for the others. Unrealistic dribble.

Give me Sulu and Scotty and bar fights.

A well made point. The Characters are more "human"

Originally posted by McClane
>>
I think Enterprise has the potential of going down that line. Where else would u see the chief of security and the commander of a marine detatchment fighting over their pride ? Not on DS9 anyways. ODO just got huffy when the federation security lad tried to take over.

It is closer to the modern human, we can relate easier to it.

BTW dosent the whole federation/humans don't use money anymore - dosent that indicate a advanced form of comunisuim? Everyone works for the greater good of the state and humanity in general without the need for material posseons

Originally posted by Pigman II
Am I? Piccard was my favorite from TNG and Sisko from DS9 so I've nothing against humans I'm glad to report. Whilst I also liked the generic 'How Human Am I?' characters like Data/Spock/TheDoctor I can't say I'm a fan of 'generic alien' guys like Worf/Dax/Troi etc

Spock the doctor and Data where good, i liked them all but ENT is trying something new by not having one of them. DS9 had Odo trying to understand certain human feelings and such , Kira helped him with that.

Originally posted by Pigman II

Weird cos those are the two in particular I was thinking about! I'm also glad to hear you refer to him that guy who drives the ship' as it shows I'm not alone in my indifference. Out of interest does anyone know that guys name without looking it up?

I didn't look it up, his name is Maywether

Originally posted by Pigman II

Funny, I haven't heard a single 'fcuk' or a 'sh1t' yet from any of them so whatever they're doing it isn't cursing. All they're spouting is a bit of verbal tokenism to make ST seem 'cool' for the teens. It's exactly like the sex stuff I mentioned earlier. My feeling is, yeah fair enough, do it or don't do but at least don't be half-hearted about it because it just comes off like a lack of conviction on the part of the producers.

Ok a fair point, the last thing i ever want is for it to be "kool" to watch star trek.

Originally posted by Pigman II

W.R.T. 'Stupid' dialogue take the example at the end of SkyOnes ep last Monday. When they're leaving the pink-sticky-glob-ball (or whatever it was) Archer says 'Get us out of here' to Lt.Token. Now any ST fan would know the typical response to that would be 'Aye Captain' or if they're on buddy terms Token might say 'With Pleasure'. But no, Tokens response was 'I'd love to' which in inself sounds stupid and ghey but more importantly implies that Archers request was something he was unable to fulfill. Yeah, I know it's just a minor thing that 99% of viewers probably missed but It's just little things like this that get up my nose and worse they seem to be prolific.

There is a big debate going on at the mo in the feedback forum about use of the word Ghey so u might get flamed for it.

I don't care that much with what they say, as u said ,ost viewers missed it, i didn't i heard it, said to myself "hmmm" and thought nothing elce of it.

Originally posted by TCamen
I can understand the whole upset some people feel with regards the timeline, but I don't really agree. I've said before, I wouldn't want to watch a show when you know everything that's gonna happen because it's set in the past. Fine some people want to see the whole setting up of the Federation and all, but I don't really see the excitement there. I don't know what it's such a big mark against the show because the writers decided to change the timeline for the sake of entertainment.

I would like to see the show setting up the federation as what we know about the timeline says. Also they should not be allowed chance the show for entertainment purposes - i see that as offensive to gene rodenbery.

Did any of u watch the bring back kirk trailer 2?
At one point Sisko and kirk read a computer terminal and it says "Acessing, Classfied Temperal cold war, Jonathan Archer"
They could make ENT into the porpper timeline and then just classafy all info regaring the temperal cold war (like the way they classfied all info on the omega particle)

Originally posted by bizmark
EH! If it doesn't follow the timeline already set by 40 years of star trek then it is either a alternative universe or pure crap

As i said above, mabe it could end up classified.

Originally posted by bizmark

I just don't get theis so called star trek "fans" who don't care about the timeline "OH L33T MAN AKIRAPRISE HAS A TRANSPORTER AND PHASERS!!!" its people like that who are in charge of star trek right now and thats the main problem.Also the fact some fans with accpet any crap shown with out question is a major problem as well

Like you i would like to see ENT following the timeline, the wont make it follow the timeline cause ppl who want it to are so few in number, however right we may be.

Since there not going to follow it i can only hope for a good story, like i have said before, mirror universe would be nice,

I wouldn't mind a reset button as long as it was VERY VERY complicated.
If they make it just 1 simple temperal incursion i will be annoyed, i want it to be VERY complicated.

Originally posted by SantaHoe
I thought Voyager and TNG were crap until I watched a good few episodes and got to know the chars... so when I started watching Enterprise, I thought it would be the same deal... but the charictors are too bland or something, so I never got into it.

I think they should have followed Voyager with a new series where the best people from the Voyager crew are taken and put in command of a borg cube along with the best of the Next Generation crew.
Or did they already completely wipe out the borg in the final of Voyager, I can't remember... anyway bring them back! The borg were cool.
Or those drug-taking warrior-race from DS9, what were they called again? Dominion warriors or something wasn't it?

In command of a boerg cube? I don't like that idia,

A series based after the return of voyager, after the dominion war and after the death of Shinzon - yes i very much like that idia.

The borg wernt wiped out at end of vayager.
There unicomplex was destroyed a huge outpost with trillions of borg, also they lost 1 of 6 Transwarp hubs.

They where called the GemHadar

---

Regarding DS9. It has a different style to it than other sereis.
There is a reason why Star Trek DS9 is the 3rd most nominated drama series of all time.

---

Ye as i said before i havent been round much cause of my damm OCD with Freelancer. I thought this was a important topic for me to comment on.
hope to see you all at the next board beers btw.

McClane

>>EH! If it doesnt follow the timeline already set by 40 years of star trek then it is either a alternaive universe or pure crap

Thats the thing about Star Trek. Anything is possible. This timeline "change" u speak of might have been what was always supposed to happen. It might be the RIGHT one in order to set up the federation as it is. (remember effect can come before cause)

>>I think they should have followed Voyager with a new series where the best people from the Voyager crew are taken and put in command of a borg cube along with the best of the Next Generation crew.

....ergh ...what ? .....if i knew u i'd probably have u examined.

joshcork

I think of myself as a trekie and have watched most episodes and I'm not sure what everyone is so upset about the thing is that every series has its flaws but what every trekie must do is turn a blind eye. The Klingons for example and their foreheads i've never come across an explanation only once when worf shrugged off at the mention of how in DS9. Which then the forehead thing was ignored in some other episodes when they went back in time mess as they do. Anyway there are a miriad of little things to poke holes in if you want.

As for the characters to be fare Scott Bakula is cool the does fine, he's no picard but there will never be another Picard. The other characters what do you want famous hollywood actors. They do fine they aren't great but who remembers the first couple of seri of TNG they were terrible actors but they got better and became the best given time.

For the timeline I lol to it, for the number of times they've messed with it, it should be so confused as not to know whats going on. as for history their is no comprehensive liberary for the history of a fictional universe it'd be way too complicated so for dramatic purposes they change stuff. Would you prefer they continued making the same TNG series forever, they did reach their limit as good as they were in fairness they were starting to stretch

Basically I like ENT and see it's sort comings but am willing to overlook most of them for a more interesting universe this isn't set in stone.

Patience and understanding

claire h

The idea of doing a prequel was a foolish idea to begin with. It's set 100 years before Kirk's ship, but yet it's somehow shinier and more 'modern' than it. They make first contact with a number of races that the other captains later make "first" contact with. Bad idea, they should have avoided it.

The arc this season is blatant pro-Bush propaganda.

Moral questions are brought up and the immoral or amoral action is usually chosen, and the ideas are usually shallow or predictable or done-to-death anyway.

The characters and the relationships between the characters are not well-developed. The attraction between T'Pol and Trip is based solely on physical appeal rather than any emotional connection - there is very little sense of what each character is really like, and at this stage in the show, there should be. Hoshi Sato and Travis Mayweather get one episode per season in which they're centre stage, and are ignored the rest of the time. Even Archer, the character we see most of the time, is incomphrensible - he is defined by his rank and by his mission, and that's it.

The episodes are mostly action-oriented, with an alien-of-the-week, which gets repetitive.

The theme song is utterly atrocious, but it sums up what the producers are trying to do - appeal to the people who didn't like the other Trek series, who couldn't handle continuous character development and thought-provoking plots.

While the other series had shortcomings, they're easier to overlook - there were much fewer of them, and the basic idea of the show wasn't doomed from the beginning.

bizmark

I likes claire h

I agree with her

This timeline "change" u speak of might have been what was always supposed to happen. It might be the RIGHT one in order to set up the federation as it is.

How does that make sence ?? .....The older timeline has to change from whats already known to create the modren timeline we already know which is where we got most of the info about the older (unfucked up) timeline in the first place........that makes no sence to me and smacks of "Try every loop hole possible to explane the mistakes" .

Claire makes good points the show was doomed from the start the ONE thing a prequal show HAS to do is follow the timeline already set out or wtf is the point of haveing a prequal show....But right from the start they pissed all over the timeline.

Pigman II

Spock the doctor and Data where good, i liked them all but ENT is trying something new by not having one of them. DS9 had Odo trying to understand certain human feelings and such , Kira helped him with that.

Whilst not exactly the same I think Flox is filling that role anyway.

Not an episode goes by where he doesn't say something along the lines of 'Oh you humans are so strange. Back on Denublias we do things differently.' Sure he doesn't want to BE human but seems excessively facinated/curious about 'us' in exactly the same way Data et al are. As such I don't think they've departed radically from first principles of casting.

There is a big debate going on at the mo in the feedback forum about use of the word Ghey so u might get flamed for it.

I don't read that board, but just to clarify I only meant it in the context of being 'lame'.

I don't care that much with what they say, as u said ,ost viewers missed it, i didn't i heard it, said to myself "hmmm" and thought nothing elce of it.

Yep, it was just one example, but I'm sure if I sat down and re-watch episodes just to find stuff like this (and you couldn't PAY me to btw) I'm sure I'd find numerous pieces of lazy dialogue like this in all episodes.

Ping Chow Chi

star trek has probably run it course for the time being. I think it should have a break for a good few years before coming out with any new shows.

McClane

>>It's set 100 years before Kirk's ship, but yet it's somehow shinier and more 'modern' than it.

Oh please! thats the most irrevelant/ignorant thing i've heard yet.

The Bloody Phoenix looked shinier and more modern then Kirks Enterprise.

>>They make first contact with a number of races that the other captains later make "first" contact with.

Time Line = Changed

>>the ideas are usually shallow or predictable or done-to-death anyway.

Temporal Cold War sounds good to me.

If anything ENT is unpredictable compared to DS9, VGR etc because of the very fact the timeline isn't written in stone anymore.

If u want predictable u haven't seen enough DS9/VGR.

>>The attraction between T'Pol and Trip is based solely on physical appeal rather than any emotional connection

...... and i like my girlfriend not because of her big tits but shes a good conversationalist.

>>Even Archer, the character we see most of the time, is incomphrensible - he is defined by his rank and by his mission, and that's it.

Their out to save Earth and they are pissed off some aliens killed some people! It the mission wasn't defining them atm there would be something wrong.

>>The episodes are mostly action-oriented,

Yes ...don't u just hate action. Its much better watching Kira and Odo's romance or studying such and such only to find out the crew have come down with a strange illness which makes them "insert crazy/sleep or die"

>>The theme song is utterly atrocious

After XXX number of Episodes so is TNG/DS9/VGR/TOS's theme song too.

So a lot of people hate the theme song. So what ? I know plenty of people who hate programs theme songs but still love the program.

>>appeal to the people who didn't like the other Trek series

The OTHER trek series ? DS9 and VGR were Crap, VGR especially crap. ENT is going back to TOS, the people actually act human in it.

>>who couldn't handle continuous character development and thought-provoking plots

What continuous character development ? The only character in VGR who developed was Paris and i still thought he was useless.
Granted DS9 did a fair job of that with some of the characters.

bizmark

Fan boy

Mcclain your own argument point towards a alternave universe not the real star trek Universe....For the most part your arguments make no sence if your trying to prove enterprise is part of the real star trek timeline tbh

Yes ...don't u just hate action. Its much better watching Kira and Odo's romance or studying such and such only to find out the crew have come down with a strange illness which makes them "insert crazy/sleep or die"

Oh bang bang big explosion and some tits mad man!!!! :rolleyes: Does any other long time star trek fan remember when star trek was about an idea and not pritty explosions ?

Bring back the glory days of TNG and DS9 at lest the war and battles in Ds9 ment something at the backing story was amazeing

McClane

>>Mcclain your own argument point towards a alternave universe not the real star trek Universe

eh ..i haven't been arguing for one or the other. I personally don't care if its either. But heres something people have failed to comprehend.

This Timeline could be the correct one because the future is manipulating the past. Remember in VGR when they went to Earth and the timeship from the future was actually responsible for the microchip revolution on earth. Think about it for a second.

The Timeline we all know and love may be perfectly fine at the end of ENT. I wouldn't be surprised seeing Archer stopping the temporal war from ever happening so the timeline never gets changed in the first place. But it only doesn't get changed BECAUSE of the temporal war.

>>For the most part your arguments make no sence if your trying to prove enterprise is part of the real star trek timeline tbh

I wasn't ...but ok.

bizmark

wouldn't be surprised seeing Archer stopping the temporal war from ever happening so the timeline never gets changed in the first place.

That would be one almighty father of all reset buttons but its about the only way to fix the timeline at this point .

Sleepy

Hmm, I like Enterprise. With regards to Archer's "my way or the highway" attitude, don't you think that maybe that's what's needed to be the FIRST captain of starfleet...

Now tbh, I'm not your typical Trekkie, I liked Voyager, HATED DS9 and find TOS completely unwatchable. I couldn't really give a ****e about the timeline between the different series, unless it got ridiculous (e.g. Enterprise having more powerful weapons than the later ships etc). Trying to make the Enterprise crew more advanced than we are now, whilst still being less advanced than TOS is an extremely difficult challenge for any writing team, especially when there are so many people that are (dare I say it in this forum) obsessive about the accuracy of adherence to timelines etc...

To each his own, I personally think the sexual tension between T'Pol and Trip is great. Am I the only one that can get turned on by someone attractive that frustrates the hell out of me? I find that hard to believe. Add to that the latent curiosity that would surely exist between two members of such similar races and I think you'd have a hell of a lot of sexual tension there.

And I agree, the theme tune is quite horrificaly BRUTAL!!!

McClane

>>With regards to Archer's "my way or the highway" attitude, don't you think that maybe that's what's needed to be the FIRST captain of starfleet.

Exactly!!!! Thats what i really really like about him. Take the klingons chasing ENT into the Expanse and Archer destroys the ship. Can u honestly see sisko or Janeway or Picard destroying them ? no they'd be like "Mr Worf/Tuvok/otherguy disable their engines/weapons". No one since Kirk have actually just blown the **** outta something and its about time.

If an alien ship fires on VGR/TNG or DS9 they can shoot away for at least 5 minutes before Janeway/Picard or Sisko will fire back. They would try hailing them, then telling them theres been a misunderstanding etc etc etc

Kirk/Archer would **** them bitches up!

User45701

*yawn* the ammmount of thinking i have to do at 4.30am to write this.

I noticed that noone responded to my mention that some star trek fans have suggested that the temperal cold war becomes classfied like Species 8472 or the omega particle.

I agree with biz on his point

"Oh bang bang big explosion and some tits mad man!!!! Does any other long time star trek fan remember when star trek was about an idea and not pritty explosions ?

Bring back the glory days of TNG and DS9 at lest the war and battles in Ds9 ment something at the backing story was amazeing"

Except on the TNG part i think DS9 had a much better following the charctors lives and brillent story than TNG.

All star trek seasons have had AMAZING episodes, even ENT.
But somehow this long debate about ENt is starting to make me pick a faverate star trek seris.

Until before this debate i said they where all very good.
Now i feel that DS9 may be no.1 i havent reched a final decision yet.

I dont think that star trek should take a few years gap like some suggested.

Woden

Originally posted by Sleepy
Trying to make the Enterprise crew more advanced than we are now, whilst still being less advanced than TOS is an extremely difficult challenge for any writing team, especially when there are so many people that are (dare I say it in this forum) obsessive about the accuracy of adherence to timelines etc...

here here sleepy

i reckon it most definetly has to be a challenge to try to come up with something thats at the same time original but somehow fits into the overall scheme. saying that however they did put themself in the situation choosing to do a prequel. however i'll have faith that it will be sorted out in the end

data

joshcork

I remember in the original film when kirk was up his usual stuff they did some crazy stuff like strapping a platinum plate on kirk when he went to the klingon prison. The Klingons must have been well stupid not to search him or what but the thing is that they were impetuous and without many rules.
The federation was only just getting on its feet and the guys in the field had to do some crazy stuff just to stay alive yet alone allow earth to survive. I don't think that all whats happened sofar will be classified too many people died they wouldn.t have been organised enough.

I agree with McClane about the need to be gunho as asking questions got you killed technology wasn't advamced enough to allow them to hang around and chat.

Anyway the writers must be aware that everyone is up in a puff about this timeline stuff and i'd say they'll have something to fix it just dandy when the time is right.
It's been done before in single episodes and no one remembers anything why not for a series?

McClane

I agree with McClane about the need to be gunho as asking questions got you killed technology wasn't advamced enough to allow them to hang around and chat.

Exactly. People here are giving ENT abuse for something that Kirk and TOS was revered for.

People seem to think since TNG that the federation are the UN of the galaxy, and a pussy UN at that. The Federation can do no wrong, they are simply the good guys, theres no such thing as a bad/evil/selfish/etc human being anymore.

yeah rite.

IMO gung-ho is the way to go. TNG/DS9/VGR was always too clean and too perfect and too ridiculously honourable to actually seem realistic.

I mean if i was a Starfleet Captain and some asshole fires at me i'm not going to try to hail them for 5 minutes and then only concentrate my fire at their shield/engine generators. I'm gonna **** them up! and when they are disabled and floating helplessly in space i'd hail them, give them the finger and fire a torpedo.

Take a TOS episode i can think of, i'm not sure of the name but it starts off Kirk and Spock on an alien World of pacifists and the Starfleet and Klingon fleets are going having a good old fight over the place. Klingons take over the planet and start killing the pacifists etc etc. Eventually it turns out that the pacifists are actually Q-like aliens who think Humans and Klingons are violent scumbags.

Take Picard from First Contact and his rage speech in the Ob Lounge, Now That was class!

sceptre

Originally posted by McClane
Take a TOS episode i can think of, i'm not sure of the name but it starts off Kirk and Spock on an alien World of pacifists and the Starfleet and Klingon fleets are going having a good old fight over the place. Klingons take over the planet and start killing the pacifists etc etc. Eventually it turns out that the pacifists are actually Q-like aliens who think Humans and Klingons are violent scumbags.

"Errand of Mercy", towards the end of season 1

Woden

is that the organians or what ever they're called that impose the peace treaty and the klingons and feds must show who is better equipped to handle the world?

User45701

Yes that was organians.
One of the better TOS episodes,
I liked ballence of terror.

SantaHoe

They where called the GemHadar

Aaahhh yes.

>>I think they should have followed Voyager with a new series where the best people from the Voyager crew are taken and put in command of a borg cube along with the best of the Next Generation crew.

....ergh ...what ? .....if i knew u i'd probably have u examined.

Examined with a tri-corder probably.
Freak.

bizmark

Originally posted by McClane
Exactly. People here are giving ENT abuse for something that Kirk and TOS was revered for.

People seem to think since TNG that the federation are the UN of the galaxy, and a pussy UN at that. The Federation can do no wrong, they are simply the good guys, theres no such thing as a bad/evil/selfish/etc human being anymore.

yeah rite.

IMO gung-ho is the way to go. TNG/DS9/VGR was always too clean and too perfect and too ridiculously honourable to actually seem realistic.

I mean if i was a Starfleet Captain and some asshole fires at me i'm not going to try to hail them for 5 minutes and then only concentrate my fire at their shield/engine generators. I'm gonna **** them up! and when they are disabled and floating helplessly in space i'd hail them, give them the finger and fire a torpedo.

Take Picard from First Contact and his rage speech in the Ob Lounge, Now That was class!

You know whats worrying and its just hit me .....When enterprise gets cancelled (or plods along for 4 more years) the fan base of star trek will have changed (a bit anyway) from those who liked the idea of a better more evoled human to those that love to see humans go out and kick the **** out of helpless aliens for no reasion other than they can.
Lets be honest picard was the man a real man (kirk and archer are primate by comparsion) he DID NOT attack weaker ships only attacked when he had no other option but he always won always.The Federation was the same they KNEW they where better and we did to but we also knew (and seen) that when in dangour the federation was FAR from being a pussy more than willing to die fighting the Tng ds9 federation was the hight of true strenght.

Now however the noble Federation who wont fight unless attacked has been replaced first by Voyager (god damn did a week go by when jainway didnt destroy some alien ship) and now by Enterprise where destroying ships and killing becomes way better than working the problem out (or comeing up with decent strories) its a true shame tbh the idea of star trek is dead untill berman and co are fired with out the idea which made star trek the best it will only be a adverage sci fi.

McClane

the fan base of star trek will have changed (a bit anyway) from those who liked the idea of a better more evoled human to those that love to see humans go out and kick the **** out of helpless aliens for no reasion other than they can.

Ok now your not listening to me, perhaps i was a tad over the top.
I never said go out and kick some ass for the craic. I merely put it that the federation has let itself been walked on to avoid a fight before. Take the maquis.

I actually love picard, he was a brilliant character and Pat was the perfect actor to play him but there were time i just wanted to say "Stop taking it like a bitch for the sake of peace, its overrated"


And as for the idea of an "evolved" human, theres a difference between evolving and becoming a brainwashed citizen of the federation who always sticks to the perfect set of morals etc etc

Its just not realistic and honestly i find the idea sad. Would u honestly want everyone to be like the fed citizens ?

dangerman

the only thing that has ever raised star trek (any of em) above it's ground level of super-average sci-fi hokum is good story telling.


Once I passed the age of 14 or so, phasers/explosions/nice looking ships stopped being the coolest thing etc. What made star trek TNG were its stories.

'Shattered' - [hope thats the correct name] where Riker is doing the play/thinks he's mad? Amazing. As already mentioned 'The Inner Light' was another dinger. The final TNG, All Good Things..., was complete edge-of-your-seat great story telling.

^^ These were excellent sci-fi stories, and the actors and script etc. were good enough to pull them off.

What you've got now is a terrible terrible series where every episode we're supposed to think [as others have already said] 'isn't it funny how they're afraid to use the transporter. Hah! If only they knew that warp 6 is nothing! If only we could tell them that if you go to warp 10 you turn into a fish!'

Star Trek never made much sense to the intelligent mind, it was its' stories that kept it interesting. Remove excellent story-telling (which imo was only present in TNG after the first few series/very few DS9's) and you've got a pretty crappy hole-filled universe trundling along with nothing but its shoddy in-jokes and time-travelling bullshit.

And all those people saying 'just don't watch it then' thats a non-point, this is a discussion about what & whether there's anything wrong with enterprise.

The only concession I'd make is that enterprise like many shows could be limping and about to take off. But they've already made such a balls of it i hope people are still watching to see a change if there is one.

joshcork

I Totally agree with Dangerman about the need for en excellent story as TNG was my favorite then DS9. With hardly any fighting it was fine and it was a treat and somewhat profound when they did use force and now it has becime normal and perhaps lost some of its aww.
Think of all the new tech built from the defiant to the akira and achillies there blatant warcraft not very federation like

But you must remember that it's only say a century or so ahead of us now and they had another world war and recently in the series a major attack on earth you'd expect them to be a bit twitchy. They were less evolved in that there new society wasn't really built yet

Your right "Shattered" was a great episode but which series was that? I assume its one of the later ones when they had the experience of writing good stories.

The Idealism of the federation was one of the attractions of the whole thing but again in this series the federation basically doesn't exist. I think perhaps the writers have made a mistake in thinking that people were looking for more of an action series than a drama series. Which it has been turning too ever since DS9 with the war then voyager with a new bad empire to beat every week. then the films etc.
I'd say they hoped that the feeling of alone and adventure of being the first lads to try it out would be cool. But the thing is you couldn't just go off and start exploring new systems which no-one has been before since its going to be the centre of the federation so they went for a bit of a war with some race we haven't seen before implying that they were all killed or in a very small minority. Which it has been turning too ever since DS9 with the war then voyager with a new bad empire to beat every week.

Cus It seems at the moment that a load of people are feeling that star trek is being betrayed or something to a cheeper style of entertainment what do you say to that

Pigman II

Originally posted by dangerman
'Shattered' - [hope thats the correct name] where Riker is doing the play/thinks he's mad? Amazing. As already mentioned 'The Inner Light' was another dinger. The final TNG, All Good Things..., was complete edge-of-your-seat great story telling.

Yeah I gotta agree with you there. I like Star Trek for it's (albeit watered-down) story telling not it's technology and I'll take a good moral tale over a yet another 50 ship showdown any day.

Likewise with Ent I've found the eps I've disliked the least were the ones where the story just centered around the crew and for an hour at least forgot about the Xindi and those giant metal spheres floating around in space.

In fact I seem to remember the last episode I liked was 'Similitude'. There they tackled the interesting subjects of cloning and the right to life and I for one found it much more interesting than Archers 'tell me where to find these Goddam Xindis or I'll...' rubbish that seem to be overpowering most of the newer epsiodes.

Fair enough, on the surface ST is about exploring 'whats out there' but the truth is that show is REALLY about SELF-DISCOVERY. If the current writers have forgotten that and are favouring Spaceships rather than Spacemen then they've already failed.

(BTW the episode youre thinking of was called 'Frame of Mind')

User45701

What about ENT twilight, Brillent story probbley the best ENT episode yet , it has action and has a great story.
BTW i didnt like the riker in the play episode, once u watch it over 10 times it will start to get to u.

Gyck

Interesting discussion.

For what it's worth, I can say without doubt that the theme music gets right up my nose, but I don't mind that so much since I can mute/fast forward to escape it.

I have had my doubts about the series since the start, even before when I heard who was going to be cast as captain (and I’ve come to think he’s not so bad). I've done my best not to like the show but I still watch it and mostly enjoy it.
OK, it has it's fair share of serious flaws, and setting it before the original series sets some serious constraints on what you can do.

One thing I think they got right was the aggressiveness of Archer. There have been many comments so far regarding how the more moral and measured aspects of the Federation as it’s portrayed in TNG/DS9 imply a more sophisticated approach to interaction with alien species. It should be noted that Enterprise is set in a time when the Federation has not evolved. Archer doesn’t have the Prime Directive to answer to. Does that give the writers license to build weaker shows based solely on simple plot lines and special effects? Perhaps. But the characters in Enterprise are living in much more dangerous times than any of the crews in any other series. They have far less support (bar Janeway, but she had at least the use of a far superior ship).

I was a little worried by an earlier post that framed the Gung ho aspects of the current show in the context of what Dubya is up to at the moment. I really hope that this is not the case, and I really don’t think it is. The general direction the show has taken does not completely correspond to how Bush has escalated his ‘war on terror’.

Well, that's my two cents worth.

Pigman II

Originally posted by Gyck

I was a little worried by an earlier post that framed the Gung ho aspects of the current show in the context of what Dubya is up to at the moment. I really hope that this is not the case, and I really don’t think it is. The general direction the show has taken does not completely correspond to how Bush has escalated his ‘war on terror’.

I don't know if you're refering to my comments (I can only guess you are?) but just to clarify - I wasn't saying that Ents storyline parallels Bush's campaign of terror against Iraq. I was merely saying IMHO that the show is very subtly been tapping into the 'be a patriot' zeitgeist that the American media have been surfing ever since 9/11 - or at least that's the impression I get. Fine if you're a patriotic American I suppose, but it's lost on non-US Trek-fans, not to mention a little exclusionary if you're so disinclined.

Gyck

Nope, I was replying to Claire H.:

The arc this season is blatant pro-Bush propaganda.

I'd agree with you that perhaps the writers are tapping into the 'be a patriot' zeitgeist (as you said) that is soaking the Amerian media these days. It must be difficult for anyone working for the mainstream media in the 'States to not bend to the pressure of the Bush propaganda machine. That includes writers of Enterprise. Though I'd be verrry worried of they were under pressure to toe the Whitehouse line and infuse their plotlines with parallel exploits of the goings-ons in Iraq/Afagnistan/Cuba... we're talking about a sci-fi show after all, and how many viewers are going to be persuaded to take up arms for Georges cause after seeing last weeks episode, wink wink...

*make love, not war*

claire h

Originally posted by Gyck

I was a little worried by an earlier post that framed the Gung ho aspects of the current show in the context of what Dubya is up to at the moment. I really hope that this is not the case, and I really don’t think it is. The general direction the show has taken does not completely correspond to how Bush has escalated his ‘war on terror’.

Perhaps not completely corresponding, but there are huge similarities. It's the let's-do-what-we-need-to-do-to-defend-our-own-people-regardless-of-the-morals-of-it attitude - while I'm sure it's possible to watch the show without making comparisons to the current political situation, once you have made the connection it gets just a teeny bit tiresome. That's also partially because Archer is defined by the mission rather than anything else, I guess.

User45701

Here is 1 for you

Are you pro Earth go kick the **** of of the "Xini"
Are you pro USA go kick the **** out of "terrorists"

Anyway this shouldent reley turn into a big political debate cause it is about enterprise.

I plan to keep watching it till it ends or gets canceled. Data, Biz You 2 will probbley do the same and so will most ppl on this forum.

Gyck

Perhaps not completely corresponding, but there are huge similarities.

Yep, there are. I wonder what direction the show would be taking if the current political situation were different..?

Like I said, bearing in mind the period in time the show is framed in, it's an easy option for the writers now, regardless of the political situation. I just hope that they're not reflecting the current political situation, consiously or not; that would really put me off the show.

McClane

Here is 1 for you

Are you pro Earth go kick the **** of of the "Xini"
Are you pro USA go kick the **** out of "terrorists"

I thought i'd just ignore the political post back a bit but no now i gotta reply.

How can anyone honestly compare the story to the current political situation ?

You might as well be one of those muppets who said the Lord of the Rings second movie should not be called The two Towers.

The USA was not "minding its own business", the US has been involved in the middle Eastern Affairs for how long anyone ? well lets just say a bloody long time. They have broken promises to the Palestinians, (Brits & Yanks promise Palestinians a homeland and go back on it) and almost all(?) of the Israeli military was bought at wal-mart.
Bin Laden had a lot of reasons, (albeit ****ed up reasons) to attack the USA.

Sept 11th was not about killing people. It was about the symbolism of killing the people and destroying the twin towers. It was showing to the world that the US was vunerable, that he could strike at the heart of america.

The Xindi want to simply eradicate humanity.


As for the current "lets blow the **** outta iraq etc"
How can you say its anyways similiar ? Enterprise is out there on her Own. She is the underdog.

I think its a slightly different situation when the worlds super power decides one day to go and invade smaller defenceless (in comparison) countries and claim its to look for weapons of mass destruction they don't know or care r there.

I feel sick that anyone wants to compare it. You might as well compare the Israeli's and the Palestinians to the Cardassians and the Bajorans. Aye thats right isn't it ?

Lets all see how star trek compares to real life politics, oh the maquis could be like the IRA and the Federation could be the Republics Army.

I hope i've made my point.

Justice

nice reply mcclane.

after finnally reading the full thread i feel i can comment.

where to start ummm.

firstly i'll say that im a big fan of ENT.
in its Day i loved TNG, DS9 was ok, but overall it dissapointed, voyager was excellent.
never really took to TOS, has some good epsoides though.

of course they were all different, but through out all the series there were some
absolutely cracking eposides. im not going to name names cause i dont remember their names.

so independently of any overriding story lines all the series had g8t eposodes. to me thats
a function of good script writers. there has been some cracking episodes in ENT, indeed
classic episodes in the TNG style of episode.


as for the political "bent" of ENT. common, get real. every series in Star trek had its
own trademark style.

TNG - moralist/clear cut case of right wrong/ ships counceller on bridge/
DS9 - Drama based/indroduced shades of grey into fedaration/ tried to deal with conflict in long term aftermath
VOY - Technological / melodramatic / driven by overriding goal /

enterprise
is set in much earlier universe so they've had less reliance on technology.
also since when has enterprise actually kicked butt in ENT. its ALL down to Smart use
of the brain.
i dont see why Archers character should be anythig like piccard or janeway. he lives in a very
different universe.

is the current series any more political than the Star trek 10 movie.

where "Terrorists" take over the running of the Romulan empire (a peace full enemy - re Saddam)
and launch a Weapon of MAss destruction at earth .

As to the Characters in ENT. sure we dont know some as we would like.
but look at it this way. ur comparing characters in ENT to Characters in TNG/DS9/VOY
where uve seen all the series and probably watched them loads of times.
i can remember all this being said about voyager's crew when that came out first.

as to the sexuality on the show. great. i thought the Trip > t'pal relationship is
great, imo it would be a crime not to have someone fondal t'pal. move wit the
times people. we see the smae level of porn in ADDS ffs.


ive no doubt in my mind tha come 4 yrs time when ENT is finished that it will be well
accepted and given its full status in the star trek hiearachy.

finally, to those people that see ST as something special, remember the aim of star trek is to entertain
the people that watch it. nothing more.

l3rian

t'pal is the best thing in the show, is it even remotely possible that she'll flash her tits? or... omg... a lesbian kiss

dangerman

I feel sick that anyone wants to compare it. You might as well compare the Israeli's and the Palestinians to the Cardassians and the Bajorans. Aye thats right isn't it ?

i dont see why this annoys you so much mcclane, - popular culture/drama will always be compared to whats actually happening in the world, and tenuous links drawn wherever they can be. Artists often speak of reflecting parts of the real world or emotions in their work; star trek's writers are no different.

While the links may be quite simplistic in my view, i dont see how they are wrong to read into it like that, as thats what everyone does with a series such as that. Our experiences, reflected in the stories told, are a part of what lets us engage with the tv show/film/book etc.

The fact that there's been a few posts about it means more than one person has thought of it. While Star Trek's writers can do whatever they want with the script, i'm sure they must be aware of the links that people might make, intended or not.

At the same time: I pretty much agree with your point; there's been billions of conflicts throughout sci-fi and fantasy which could be compared to whats happening in the world today.

It doesn't make me sick, it's just inevitable and happens all the time. - things are often reviewed in the context of the time they were released and this leads to ideas like this.