Lifting arms embargo on China

arcadegame2004

Some EU states, led by France, have urged the lifting of the EU's arms-embargo on China, imposed in 1989 (along with a US one) as a reaction to the Tianamen Square massacre of peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators.

What do you guys think about this? I for one am appalled that our Governmenr seems to be conniving with the other states to get this ban lifted. If anything, the human-rights situation in China has worsed, with 61% of capital-offences in China being non-violent e.g. subverting state power/criticising the government. And that ignores the threats China regularly makes to democratic Taiwan, to force it to re-unite with a dictatorship.

Memnoch

this really comes as no surprise to me...
the arms manufacturers lobby is one of the most powerful, and the intersting fact is that the UK has already passed a law creating a loophole allowing it to sell weapons to banned regimes..

as far as the government is concerned, has it been long enough since this atrocity that the majority of the fickle minded public would have forgotten about it? yes most certainly.

When such an incident happens and is covered in detail by all the media there is a public outcry , but the attention span of the general public not to mention their memory is short lived, they just wait for time to pass and resume their dirty deeds

gom

Of Course the EU should.

Why the hell not?

China has the one of the largest populations in the world and would greatly benefit from some western military hardware that would speed up the army and make it more efficent in general, thus helping reduce its standing army numbers.
Add the fact that in the medium-term China faces real problems from its tradiational enemy: America.
Due to China's massive exports to the US and the fact the Chinese currency is pegged to the Dollar America is lossing huge numbers of jobs to China. The US has an absolutely HUGE Trade Deficit with China and would love for the Chinese Currency to float and provent further trade imbalances.
Some Ultra Neo-Conservative hacks in the US have even urged the US government to consider hostal actions to solve the trade problems they are having with China.

To be honest China (externally) is a true Free-Market Capitalist country. It is playing the Capitalist system to its ultamite benefit and is reaping the rewards. Its shocking that its a WTO member


Give them Weapons that are just a tiny bit better than the ones they already make/buy. We may aswell benefit from it.
Don't give me the Human Rights crap. Two words:
"Guantanemo bay"

I agree with Gom on this.

China has come a long way from the way she used to be. Its realised that it cannot exist the way it used to be, and is trying to become part of the world. God knows, we have enough nations already part of the"civilised" world that are as bad as China ever was. hell, we even have the US the "last bastion of freedom" loosing its head and restricting human rights. So i say give China a chance. They've been alot mre trustworthy lately than our major powers.

Thing is, i don'tr hear that much from China that doesn't come from western news agencies, and that lends a suspicion that China might not be the nasty nation that we all hear abt. How many human rights abuses happen in the west? As many as China? I wouldn't be too suprised to hear that it was.

D

This maybe slightly off topic but... In recent years, china as a country has begun to develp in leaps and bounds. Admittedly some of the more remote regions aren't seeing the benefits and there are still human right issues and the whole Tibet thing but this isn't the time for that. China has the oppourtunity to become a real powerhouse in the world. Ample resources, including cheap labour can do nothing but help their situation. At the moment it's main area of growth is infrastructure. The road system, especially in the east is developing at a very high rate and there is a healthy supply of jobs and the standard of living is increasing. Inevitably the level of education will rise, and is rising. I go to UL and we have a substantial amount of foreign students hailing from the east. I had the oppourtunity to talk to a chinese girl who is on a scholarship to UL. Apparently UL is a well respected college in China and every year hundreds of students compete for scholarship programs to UL. This education of the people will have a ripple effect, with increased education human rights standards are more than likely improve although maybe not noticably until the next generation, 15-25 years. I can easily see China becoming the next superpower, and fair play to them. I can imagine that everyone in the united states is not entirely happy with this situation as many jobs and factories, especially in manufacturing are being relocated in china. Surprisingly it was the U.S. that is actively involved in arms trade with China. In late 1994 the Chinese bought and dismantled a McDonnell Douglas plant in Columbus OH that allowed them to produce ultra-modern airplanes and silkworm cruise missiles also the recent sale to China of a GM plant in Valparaiso IN, laying off hundreds of workers and moving sophisticated equipment used for making smart bombs.

arcadegame2004

Gom and Klaz wake up please!

Amnesty International is constantly criticised Western countries on human-rights. Including the US (death-penalty) and even us (our prison-system). They are clearly not part of any "Western/American Imperialist conspiracy". Observe these recent (2004) reports from Amnesty International:

"The People's Republic of China continues to carry out more judicial executions than the rest of the world combined. In addition, despite having the largest population in the world, China possibly executes a higher proportion of its population than any other country, except for Singapore, which has one of the smallest populations.

Law unto itself

Behind these facts lies a criminal justice system which cannot and does not guarantee a fair trial under international law to defendants. Often defendants are denied their right to legal representation until after they have been interrogated, and even then, access in practice is strictly limited. The period of pre-arrest or pre-trial detention is often arbitrary, lasting in one extreme case for 28 years. Torture by police in China is rife, but there is no provision under Chinese law to exclude from court 'confessions' or other 'evidence' extorted through torture. In practice, there is no presumption of innocence.

Political pressure and interference

Trials and the process of appeal are often summary. Furthermore, there is no independence of the judiciary in China. The ruling Chinese Communist Party influences the judicial process at every level of proceedings with courts in particular being monitored and run by Party bodies.

Political pressure on the judicial process is particularly acute during officially designated "strike hard" campaigns, where police, prosecutors and judges are under pressure to demonstrate speed and resolve at the expense of rigour and justice. "

"Not only does the Chinese government disregard international standards in its use of the death penalty, it also disregards its own domestic laws. Despite a prohibition on executing juveniles who commit a capital crime under the age of 18, China executed a man in January 2003 for a crime he committed when he was 16. Torture is prohibited under Chinese law, but still it is pandemic, and 'evidence' extracted through torture and other illegal means continues to be used to sentence people to death."

Those held at Guantanamo Bay have not been held for 28 years. And no I am not defending the US by any means. I condemn Guatanamo Bay but its hardly credible that the Western Muslims that were captured fighting for the Taliban were just in Afghanistan for purely "education" or "tourist" purposes. And you cannot seriously compare what's going on in Guantanamo Bay with the practice in the US as a whole.

Might I add as evidence of the insanity of lifting the ban on arms-sales to the most evil regime in the world, the occupation of Tibet since 1949 and the massacre of 2 million of its 6 million people, the enforced poverty of its population, and the colonisation of Tibet with at least 7 million Chinese settlers. Gom you are wrong to argue the repeated mantra from Chirac that China's human-rights record is improving. Amnesty International's William Schulz also says:

There are about 230,000 people in prison without trial in China, and there are hundreds of people being tortured in (Chinese-ruled) Tibet," Schulz said. "What is certainly true is that there's no evidence that the trade ties have resulted in a significant improvement in China."

Further evidence of China's continued oppression in Tibet:

"Amnesty International has said that the year 2001 witnessed the continuation of severe restrictions on the freedom of speech and religion of the Tibetan people. In its The Amnesty International Report 2002 (covering events from January to December 2001), Amnesty said reports of torture and ill treatment of Tibetans continued and there were over 250 prisoners of conscience. The report was released on May 28, 2002......"Human rights violations against Tibetan Buddhists and nationalists continued in Tibet. Over 250 prisoners of conscience, many of them monks and nuns, were known to remain imprisoned. The ''patriotic education campaign'', launched by the Chinese authorities in 1996 to control monasteries and nunneries and undermine the influence of the exiled Dalai Lama, continued, as did restrictions on religious freedom, which had been extended to the population at large in recent years. Some monasteries and nunneries were closed down by the authorities, and monks and nuns expelled. Reports continued of torture and ill treatment of detainees and harsh prison conditions. Many Tibetan prisoners suffered health problems because of poor food and sanitation, harsh working conditions or beatings. Arbitrary arrests and unfair trials also continued.

Migmar, a Tibetan woman, was reportedly sentenced to six years' imprisonment in May by Lhasa Intermediate People's Court after being arrested by Public Security Bureau officials while watching a video of the Dalai Lama at her home."

If, as Gom claims, China is "changing" then it is changing from bad to worse on the human-rights front. Economic considerations should not be made second-fiddle to human-rights. Otherwise, Hitler would have been left to his own devices and we would now be speaking German.

MeatProduct

It's a pity there is a need for weapons. I know I'm being utterly unrealistic here, but what if we could all just get along!

I'm a Muslim, you're a Christian, my neighbour is a Satanist, so what?

No weapons, no need for arms sanctions. Nobody get's blown up.

Sorry about all this, had a brief glimpse of another possible reality where we are not all hate-filled meat products

Nick

Gom and Klaz wake up please!

I daresay i'm as awake as most people posting here

Behind these facts lies a criminal justice system which cannot and does not guarantee a fair trial under international law to defendants.

As I've recently found out, International Law is a joke. Its only really applied when force is involved, and usually only with US backing. I'm curious did China ever agree/sign any documents that bound them to these International Law agreements?
(I'm not saying that China shouldn't improve its Law system but rather why are we constantly judging them by our standards)

Law unto itself

Any Nation is a law unto itself. There is no higher power that rules us all.

Those held at Guantanamo Bay have not been held for 28 years. And no I am not defending the US by any means. I condemn Guatanamo Bay but its hardly credible that the Western Muslims that were captured fighting for the Taliban were just in Afghanistan for purely "education" or "tourist" purposes. And you cannot seriously compare what's going on in Guantanamo Bay with the practice in the US as a whole.

no, but Guantanamo bay was an example. The US has many other "international law"/"human rights" offenses under its belt.

Might I add as evidence of the insanity of lifting the ban on arms-sales to the most evil regime in the world, the occupation of Tibet since 1949 and the massacre of 2 million of its 6 million people, the enforced poverty of its population, and the colonisation of Tibet with at least 7 million Chinese settlers. Gom you are wrong to argue the repeated mantra from Chirac that China's human-rights record is improving. Amnesty International's William Schulz also says:

Might I point out that other nations consider the "west" to be part of an evil empire? Its a matter of perspective. But i agree that China has commited acts that i disagree with. But I on the other hand am willing to give them a chance. You'd prefer to see them boycotted and ignored forever.

Otherwise, Hitler would have been left to his own devices and we would now be speaking German.

Hitler was stopped because he invaded Poland. The genocide he created was only really widely known in 1942, and the allies only used it as a reason near that time. Germany was stopped because he over-extended. Human rights was not the reason.

Economic considerations should not be made second-fiddle to human-rights.

Tell that to Iraq.

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Some EU states, led by France, h

If anything, the human-rights situation in China has worsed, with 61% of capital-offences in China being non-violent e.g. subverting state power/criticising the government.

61% as a figure is meaningless in terms of whether the situation has worsened or become better unless you supply the figure that it used to be (say around the time of the Tianneman Square massacre).

If its moved from 95% to 61%, for example, then thats a pretty serious improvement.

I'm not saying you're wrong in asserting that its gotten worse...I'm just pointing out that you haven't actually shown that it has.

And that ignores the threats China regularly makes to democratic Taiwan, to force it to re-unite with a dictatorship.

No, it doesn't.

China regularly makes threats that if Taiwan progresses along a unilateralist plan for its own future, then the Chinese will also no longer abide by the agreement the US forged between the two nations that any changes to the status quo would be bilaterally neotiated and agreed.

Put simply, it lets the Taiwanese know that if they stop abiding by the agreement, then there is no onus on China to remain in abidance either.

arcadegame2004

But lifting the arms-embargo would embolden China perhaps to attack Taiwan in the knowledge that it would then gain the upper-hand over it militarily, i.e. in terms of military technology. China has a parnoid interpretation of what counts of "moves towards independence". Even the recent referendum on increasing defences against the PRC was regarded as "splittism" by the tyrants of Beijing. The reality is that Taiwan is independent in all but name anyhow. We should support democracy not dictatorship.

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
But lifting the arms-embargo would embolden China perhaps to attack Taiwan in the knowledge that it would then gain the upper-hand over it militarily, i.e. in terms of military technology.

Firstly, thats pure speculation.

Secondly, it ignores that the US will come to Taiwan's aid as long as Taiwan have not provoked the attack by acting unilaterally. AFAIK, this is policy in the US.

We should support democracy not dictatorship.

Sure we should, but more importantly, we should support peace over war, and encouraging or supporting unilateral moves towards independance is not doing that at all.

If Taiwan is inependant in all but name - as you say, then whats the big deal for the Taiwanese that htey want to be independant in name as well? If its not a big issue for them, then let it go. If it is a big issue for them, then its a bit facetious to assume it is any less of an issue for the PRC, and tehrefore, your "independant in all but name" comment woudl seem to be rather beside the point. If the name is whats important to both sides, then the reality of the rest of it doesn't matter.

jc

Whats the huge deal anyway? Another poster created a thread displaying how Britain sells weapon components to otehr nations, neatly sidestepping sactions or embargos, on nations. If China is already receiving Arms components perhaps, the goodwill of making it official could help generate more stability in the region. I understand i'm using "could" here, but i'm not going to assume i understand the Asian mind in this respect.