Fingerprints To Be Required For Entry Into The Us

giftgrub

FROM ANANOVA NEWS


US to fingerprint visiting Britons

Britons travelling to the US will be fingerprinted and photographed before entered the country.

The move affects citizens of 27 countries -- including close allies Britain, Japan and Australia -- who had been allowed to travel within the United States without a visa for up to 90 days.

Under changes that will take effect by September 30, they will be fingerprinted and photographed when they enter through any of 115 international airports and 14 seaports.

Asa Hutchinson, the Homeland Security Department's border and transportation under-secretary, was to hold a news conference to discuss the changes to the US-VISIT programme.

Members of Congress were briefed about the move.

**************

This also applies to Irish travellers under the visa waiver programme

http://www.usembassy.ie/consulate/visa_waiver.html

big brother is watching

rde

A lot of hype has been forthcoming since this was announced a couple of months ago; a lot of it unjustified, a lot of it not.

Why You Shouldn't Worry
The information won't - can't - be used for all that much. It's a knee-jerk reaction compounded with our neocon chums' desire to know everything. Even after fingerprint technology advances to the point where it's accurate, we'll probably find a) that fingerprints aren't unique after all, and b) the information overload (not just fingerprints or other biometric readings, but all the intel collected) will be such that the same thing will happen as happens now; the spy agencies won't be able to do anything with it.

Why You Should Worry
If you're one of the increasing number with irrational worries about terrorism, then you should worry. Ludicrous measures such as this, ID cards in the UK and elsewhere and (my personal favourite) confiscating nail clippers on airplanes all contribute to a sense of security that's not just false, it's downright insane. Do you really want to trust your security to someone who thinks that a two-centimetre file is a danger to an airplane, or that having a fingerprint of someone you've never encountered before will somehow stop a bomb going off?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

rde

Misleading article. The move will not affect the vast majority of Irish people who already have machine readable passports and it won't affect Brits with those kind of passports either.

That's an appalling attitude. So we shouldn't worry about it cos it only affects foreigners and a small section of Irish people?

I realise here that I've just given out about the inanity of the law, but it's one thing to dismiss it as a publicity stunt (which I've no doubt it is), but another to say it's okay cos it's not us.

cyclopath2001

A machine readable passport will not be sufficient for the US, they want everyone to have passports with biometric data (i.e. the fingerprint & other data stored digitally in a chip in the passport).

That combined with your credit card information and data about your your flight history (courtesy of the EU) will allow them to profile you.

C.

Nuttzz

will allow them to profile you.

as an holiday maker? big deal. We should do it here for all the immigrant boyo's comming here too.

dahamsta

What cyclopath2001 said. And of course data protection in the US isn't worth a damn, so your records will be provided to the highest bidder in the blink of an eye. That'll be nice when they switch from thumbprints to DNA.

adam

Just to clarify.
This is the new rule and from october 1st all non U.S citizens regardless of what type of passport they have and including those in the visa waiver programm will be finger printed and digitally photographed before entering the U.S

I don't have a problem with it, I've nothing to hide and the process takes less than a few minutes.

It should make air travel safer as it guarantee's that the U.S authorities are aware of who is, how often and why people are travelling to the U.S

I'd rather that unobtrusive 2 minutes of big brother if it saves innocent passengers lives or indeed those of ordinary commuters if it is a case of preventing a madrid style attack on the new york subways.

Sarky

So tempting to travel there after tatooing the letters A,L,L,A, and H to my five fingertips...

Fingerprinting won't accomplish much, if anyone really wanted they could change their prints via scarring, burning, plastic surgery...

It's a stepping stone, though. A series of little, non-threatening steps, each a teeny bit more restrictive than the last. Before you know it, you'll be getting a reciept each time you go to the toilet.

Nuttzz

Originally posted by dahamsta
What cyclopath2001 said. And of course data protection in the US isn't worth a damn, so your records will be provided to the highest bidder in the blink of an eye. That'll be nice when they switch from thumbprints to DNA.

adam

simple solution to that, dont go to the states, no one is making you

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Earthman
I'd rather that unobtrusive 2 minutes of big brother if it saves innocent passengers lives or indeed those of ordinary commuters if it is a case of preventing a madrid style attack on the new york subways.

The only way it could prevent these from happening is if there is a database of all terrorists/potential terrorists everywhere for them to cross reference against.
Like others have said, I think it's just leading people into a false sense of security.
Remember, the Oklahoma bombing was the biggest terrorist act on US soil prior to September 11th.
Who carried that out again?

Sarky

It's also hard to match fingerprints that were utterly destroyed in a fiery explosion.

Sparks

The WTC attackers had valid, legally-obtained state documents, visas, licences and so on. Some even obtained them after the WTC attack. All were known to be in the country and IIRC at least one was known to be on a terrorist list. So how will more detailed information on who is in the country prevent another large terrorist attack?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

giftgrub

i can see the argument for it, but i think theres a risk this kind of thing gives more ammo to the really far right in the US, you know, the gut toting, milltia Oklohoma bomber type?

the question is where does it stop?

if for every time theres a terror attack, the indivuduals rights are then eroded by countermeasures, whats been achieved?

in a way the terrorists have taken from our basic rights to privacy...isnt that a victory in itself?



i need a drink

Originally posted by giftgrub

if for every time theres a terror attack, the indivuduals rights are then eroded by countermeasures, whats been achieved?

So they are going to spend probably less than 2 mins taking a photo and my fingerprints-what the heck odds?
I don't care, they ask me questions anyway and no doubt I've been profiled several times.
I've better things to be worrying about than that.
I'll continue to enjoy visiting the U.S , thanks and will have the same laugh and banter as always with the INS officers and go on about my business as normal.

When I'm six feet under, all this is immaterial and even less material to my every day life.
It doesn't effect me for one second and I go to the states often, I have family there as have a lot of Irish people.
Apart from the fact that it may save lives I suppose including my own, if at any point I may be unlucky enough to coincide my movement with where a potential terrorist may want to terrorise.

Originally posted by Frank Grimes

Like others have said, I think it's just leading people into a false sense of security.

If you applied that logic to every security measure , where would we be?
It would be a terrorists heaven.
Now of course there is a limit to acceptability on the measures taken, where that lies, I'm not sure.
But in my humble opinion the fingerprint one is miles away from it, its so simple yet very effective in terms of recording who is coming to visit.

Sarky

Originally posted by Earthman
Apart from the fact that it may save lives I suppose including my own, if at any point I may be unlucky enough to coincide my movement with where a potential terrorist may want to terrorise.

How, exactly, will the US getting your fingerprints after you touch down stop a religious fanatic from smacking a plane from another country into a large building?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sarky

Some of the WTC terrorists had been in the states for ages. There are potentially several hundred more covert agents who have been there for years (they ARE, after all, pretty clever), ready to blow up something at the reciept of one email. How would fingerprints stop them?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Earthman
Now of course there is a limit to acceptability on the measures taken, where that lies, I'm not sure.

My point being that this is a step too far.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
My point being that this is a step too far.

I don't see how.
On the contrary I can see how it would help for as I said at least in my opinion, very little bother and almost immaterial impact on my life ( except for the possible positive effect of it being another hurdle the potential terrorist has to jump ).

If you don't like it, you don't have to go, its as simple as that.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Earthman
If you don't like it, you don't have to go, its as simple as that.

I've no interest in travelling there anyway, so it doesn't bother me. As long as they don't decide that it's in their best interest that other countries do the same.

The Beer Baron

When I travelled in the US I went through passport control, my bags were scanned, I'm put thru a metal detector, frisked, I go through immigrations, I go thru all that bollox. I haven't been thru the US post-911 but I'm told it's a rather silly affair security-wise. And even people who are only on a stop over have to go thru the whole paranoid security rigmarole as was the case of someone I knew flying from Canada to Sydney, they stopped in Hawaii and had to go through the same labourious security ritual. Knowing they were only on a stop over they were none-the-less asked "why are you coming to the US?" wtf? They weren't! These were white, middle-aged Canadian citizens mind you, they weren't you average profile of a terrorist.

Now imagine on top of all that I now have to wait so that I, and everyone else that flew in on let's say a 747 has to be photographed and finger-printed (like common criminals) how long does that take? For one person, for two, for a long line of people, for a Boeing 747's worth of people, now let's say you fly into JFK or LAX- how many people are gonna be there? How many other 747's will have landed before you do? Christ! Your visa will have expired before you even get a chance to have it looked at...

Of course, like Grimey there, I've no interest in ever returning to the US, now more than ever, I just hope that other countries don't follow suit. As for the US itself, what's going to happen to its tourism industry? Or more importantly, how is it going to effect the business traveller? That's a serious waste of time right there, a terrible inconvienience. In the end terrorists will still attack America, Iraqis will still BBQ their troops and as for Pleby Mc Pleb, he'll rethink his American holiday and decide instead to take his kids to EuroDisney.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

BlitzKrieg

ok...

quick point.


This COULD be helpfull...


When i flew over to the US 2 years ago i went through hell over one simple reason I had vusuted Kosovo the year before. With no military background and being at the young age of 18 the security were slightly curious\worried as to why someone with no UN\Military or charity background would visit a country like Kosovo. Anyway I had to spend about a half hour explaining why i went to kosovo and it wasnt until my father caught up with me (after going through his security check) and showed that he was UN personal. Now if he wasnt there and they had no proof i was a son of a UN personal in Kosovoi could have been there alot longer. Now my father could be moving on the Iraq or Afganastan and i might visit him again. My sister lives in new york. Whats going to happen if i go see her on my own after seeing my dad. They will again be very cautious cause of where i have been before.


This finger printing though could show that my father is UN personal therefore no need to worry i had a valied reason for visiting said country and i have a valied reason to visit America for my sister.


I'm not saying its right but it could be helpful for me alone...so i'm being selfish.

cyclopath2001

Yes, life would be a lot easier if the authorities knew everything about us so that we could pass through security checks without delay.

C.

sovtek

Originally posted by Nuttzz
simple solution to that, dont go to the states, no one is making you

No but then I'm American and it's likely I'm gonna have to go back there sometime, and most likely it's going to be with my non-American wife.
Partner that with the fact that they have circulated lists of known anti-war groups (within the US)that have been detained and searched for that very reason.
Now what makes you think they aren't going to do that to foreignors, especially one that used to belong to a "terrorist" organisation known as the ANC.

Nuttzz

Still a simple solution, if your not happy with the rules dont go, your non american wife doesnt have to travel to the US.

When myself and herself went to Egypt she had to cover her head & shoulders when visiting certain parts of the country, she wasn’t happy about it but she knew what she was getting into before we left, not the same thing obviously but the concepts are the same, the rules that apply here in Ireland don’t necessarily apply everywhere else, live with it or stay at home.

sovtek

Originally posted by Nuttzz
Still a simple solution, if your not happy with the rules dont go, your non american wife doesnt have to travel to the US.

Yea and I guess I didnt' have to marry her either eh? :rolleyes:

When myself and herself went to Egypt she had to cover her head & shoulders when visiting certain parts of the country, she wasn’t happy about it but she knew what she was getting into before we left, not the same thing obviously but the concepts are the same, the rules that apply here in Ireland don’t necessarily apply everywhere else, live with it or stay at home.

No it isn't the same concept.
And I'm not going to just live with it, I'm going to politically oppose it and bitch about it in this here forum.

Nuttzz

for all the good it will do, I doubt the US policy makers seek boards.ie opinions or approval

tribble

Finger printing is another step in the array of errors that is US security.

When I want to bomb the empire state building I'll just fly to Canada, skip over the 1500mile land border, bus my way down the states and bomb the mudder trucker.

BANG!

No messing about with passports or finger prints.

tribble

Walter Ego

To paraphrase the famous NRA slogan-
"They can have my fingerprints when they pry them from my cold dead fingers."

Is the EU going to impose the same regimen on US visitors. And if not, why not?

Yoda

I've got dual citizenship. I use the US passport to enter the US. I use the Irish passport to travel elsewhere. I imagine that if I entered the US on the Irish passport, with its visa for my trip to Kabul last year, I would be led into a small room where I would have to explain to some imaginative young border guard how it was that the UN paid me to go over there to help them put their alphabet into computer operating systems.... As if it weren't suspect enough that I live abroad and have dual citizenship....

In most countries there is a reciprocity measure; I understand that because the US now requires a visa for Brazilians to enter the US, Brazil requires the same for US citizens visiting Brazil.

Perhaps Bertie can invest in fingerprinting machines and turn them on the US citizens who come here to play golf.

sovtek

Originally posted by Yoda
I imagine that if I entered the US on the Irish passport, with it's visa for my trip to Kabul last year, I would be led into a small room where I would have to explain to some imaginative young border guard how it was that the UN paid me to go over there to help them put their alphabet into computer operating systems.... As if it weren't suspect enough that I live abroad and have dual citizenship....

If you aint in the military then they automatically suspect something just because you live abroad.
I can't remember all the ridiculous questions I had to answer with a straight face because I live in Ireland. They think everyone's in the IRA over here.

In most countries there is a reciprocity measure; I understand that because the US now requires a visa for Brazilians to enter the US, Brazil requires the same for US citizens visiting Brazil.

I was thinking that Europe should do the same thing.

Perhaps Bertie can invest in fingerprinting machines and turn them on the US citizens who come here to play golf.

Yea why not, tourisms already ****ed anyway,
because of the high cost of Ireland.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.