thinking of buying a dvd recorder

bada_bing

can anyone recommend a good place to buy a dvd recorder or a particular model that offers great value for the money??

what are pros & cons that i should look out for before buying a dvd recorder??

any tips would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

padraigmyers

Thhere is a thread about a cheap DVD Recorder on Amazon over in bargins. Link here

carrolls

I can only recommend a Philips/Grundig/Sony DVD+RW model.
The reason is simple. Better picture quality over 4.7 GB.
The reason for this is the Variable Bit Rate (VBR) which is ONLY intrinsic
to the DVD +RW models.
Less action on screen= less memory used.
This is why DVD +RW can hold up to 8 hours of programming on one disk.
Another advantage of DVD+RW models is
dynamic space allocation. For example if you record three programmes
and delete the middle one, this empty space goes into the memory pool
again in DVD +RW. This is not the case with DVD -RW models like Panasonic.
To free this space on these models you have to re-format the disk.
You never have to finalise a DVD+RW disk to play it in any DVD Player.
It always plays immediately.
This is also not the case with DVD -RW. With DVD -RW you always have to finalize the recording to make it compatible. Finalizing a DVD-R /-RW disk can take
up to 20 minutes depending on the length of the recording.
And DVD +RW was the only format designed from the ground up to be
compatible with the original DVD ROM format.

eoinf

alliance electric in georges st in dublinthey have them all instock (pioneer sony panasonic jvc)the new pioneers with built in hard drives have gotten great reviews thats the one i got.there is a guy called Bill who pretty much knows them inside out he will guide you through them if you ask hbim nicely he will throw in a few free discs too.the were one of the best on price too which was good

check them out

carrolls

Originally posted by eoinf
the new pioneers with built in hard drives have gotten great reviews thats the one i got.

Not as good as DVD+RW though. When I buy into a new TV technology I judge the product on picture quality. DVD-RW for me is not quite at the cutting edge.

combs

Panasonic models with DVD-R and DVD-RAM do variable bit rate stuff too, altering the compression to suit the action on screen. You don't have to get a DVD+RW model to get that feature.

If you want an entry level machine, the DVD-RAM machines offer a good subsitute for a hard drive, the only disadvantage being that you can't record to DVD-RAM, then decide to cut out the ads and stuff and transfer do DVD-R for archiving purposes. You'd need a hard drive model for that.

carrolls

Originally posted by combs
Panasonic models with DVD-R and DVD-RAM do variable bit rate stuff too

Only in DVD-RAM mode, and DVD-RAM is not compatible with anything but itself.

combs

Originally posted by carrolls
Only in DVD-RAM mode, and DVD-RAM is not compatible with anything but itself.

I was under the impression that it did it with DVD-R too? I have the manual for mine that mentions variable compression, but it doesn't mention it being specific to one disc format. I have no reason to believe they'd use different compression techniques for different discs.

Mutant_Fruit

DVD-r and DVD+r both look identical, and both fit in standard DVD drives, and both are over 85% compatible with current players/computers.

DVD-Ram on the other hand, is encased in a cartridge, and is physically a different size anyway. Therefore it is 100% INcompatible with every device made in the past, making it a VERY bad choice for future proofing.

carrolls

Originally posted by combs
I was under the impression that it did it with DVD-R too? I have the manual for mine that mentions variable compression, but it doesn't mention it being specific to one disc format. I have no reason to believe they'd use different compression techniques for different discs.

Pioneer are the only company that apply VBR to their DVD-R/-RW recorders.
Because VBR is not intrinsic to DVD-R/-RW in compatible mode, they have had to severly compromise on performance to acheve this.
The Panasonic model you are talking about uses CBR for DVD-R in compatible mode and VBR for DVD-R in non compatible mode. This is why finalizing a DVD-R disk takes so long.

bada_bing

hey carrols

do you currently have a DVD+r/DVD+RW recorder yourself? if so what model is it and where did you buy it from?
Ideally i'd like to know which shops do good deals on DVD recorders as i will be shopping around this weekend. Location deatils would be much appreciated.

Ps. would it be worth my while to consider a tv tuner as an alternative to a dvd recorder???

carrolls

Originally posted by bada_bing
hey carrols

do you currently have a DVD+r/DVD+RW recorder yourself? if so what model is it and where did you buy it from?
Ideally i'd like to know which shops do good deals on DVD recorders as i will be shopping around this weekend. Location deatils would be much appreciated.

Ps. would it be worth my while to consider a tv tuner as an alternative to a dvd recorder???

I have a Philips DVDR70 DVD +RW recorder. I bought it in Dixons Limerick for €389.
Picture quality is nothing short of superb (DVD standard) on the 1, 2, and 2.5 hour settings.
It is SVHS quality on the 3 & 4 hour settings and VHS quality on the 6 hour setting.
Blank DVD+RW disks can be got for €40 for a 25 disk package on the web.
I would regard any other presently existing DVD recording format as a backward step.
It plays pre-recorded dvds superbly also.

combs

Originally posted by carrolls
I have a Philips DVDR70 DVD +RW recorder. I bought it in Dixons Limerick for €389.
Picture quality is nothing short of superb (DVD standard) on the 1, 2, and 2.5 hour settings.
It is SVHS quality on the 3 & 4 hour settings and VHS quality on the 6 hour setting.
Blank DVD+RW disks can be got for €40 for a 25 disk package on the web.
I would regard any other presently existing DVD recording format as a backward step.
It plays pre-recorded dvds superbly also.

Er...I think reviews of that Philips DVD recorder in the major home entertainment magazines have been less than great, especially when it comes to DVD playback. The Panasonic repeatedly gets the award for best entry level model and the higher models are well-reviewed too. If it's the Philips I'm thinking of, it's the entry level model and it's sold in loads of places around the country. In my experience, I'd steer clear of Philips products altogether anyway. Panasonic and JVC are the best brands I reckon.

John R

I have the Philips DVDR75 myself and it is pretty good. It does have a problem with playback in that on pre-recorded discs the brightness is far too high, I assume it is caused by the macrovision circuit as non-copyrighted discs both PAL and NTSC play fine.

I have had no recording problems although I have only used rw discs so far. As far as the picture quality goes in 2 hour format it is almost indistinguishable from source.

The analogy carrolls (and Phillips in the user manual) use comparing the various speeds to svhs/vhs is crap imo as the characteristics of the pictures are entirely different. In all modes the DVD picture is crisp when there is little movement but in the longer modes there is very noticeable pixellation on movement and obvious digital artefacts on high contrast lines (eg white text on dark background). The 6 hour format is horrible and depending on the source the 4 hour is not great either. The 2.5 and 3 hour settings are not bad (the 3 hour is slightly less prone to pixellation imo because it uses less resolution) but for archiving anything I want to keep I find the 2 hour setting to be the only one that is acceptable.


As for the One brand is better than the other statement I don't think that is necessarily true, they all come out with good and bad. Panasonic always made good VCRs for recording but I have had some very poor JVC equipment in the past.

The vbr/cbr thing is news to me, I am not doubting you carrolls but do you have any links to articles about this? Also have you upgraded the firmware on your dvdr70 I have seen a few comments saying it improves the encoding quality but they were a bit sketchy.

I bought my dvdr75 in Richer Sounds, Belfast in January for UK£220 (€310) It was worth the trip from Dublin at that price, they were over €80 cheaper than anyone else. They don't have the 75 anymore but have the 70 at the same price (the only difference is the 75 has a firewire input for digital video) and other good bargains.

Link: http://www.richersounds.co.uk/index.php?f=itemlist.php&c=1203

carrolls

Originally posted by John R

The vbr/cbr thing is news to me, I am not doubting you carrolls but do you have any links to articles about this?

Funnily you should mention that.;)
http://www.orinc.com/faq/dvd+-differences.html

BTW John It seems strange that Richer Sounds are now selling the DVDR 70 for €332 and they were selling the DVDR75 (much better spec) for €310 3 months ago.
In January Dixons Belfast were selling the DVDR75 for £369 (€566).
Dixons are usually savvy to the competition.

combs

Originally posted by carrolls
Funnily you should mention that.;)
http://www.orinc.com/faq/dvd+-differences.html

I'm not trying to take the piss or anything like that, carrolls, but that reads like some kind of irate DVD+R/+RW propaganda. I don't think there's much difference between the formats, performance-wise. It's all down to the quality of the player.

So bada_bing, I'd advise you to do what I should probably have said in the beginning; read a few What Home Entertainment reviews or reviews from similar magazines and see which is the best entry-level unit available right now. I just wanna recommend Panasonic because I think they make quality stuff. Philips I'd be wary of. They're OK, but rarely great. The JVC DVD recorders looked nice, but were poorly received.

carrolls

Originally posted by combs
but that reads like some kind of irate DVD+R/+RW propaganda.

Maybe you are correct and its probably a Philips plant, but all the points made seem to be correct. Can you disprove any of the points made in the article?
One of the things that have changed since the article was written is that Pioneer hav introduced VBR into their latest models, at a performance cost at the finalisation stage.

combs

Originally posted by carrolls
Maybe you are correct and its probably a Philips plant, but all the points made seem to be correct. Can you disprove any of the points made in the article?
One of the things that have changed since the article was written is that Pioneer hav introduced VBR into their latest models, at a performance cost at the finalisation stage.

I haven't searched the 'net for advantages and disadvantages but the a dvd demystified faq I read a while back places very little importance on the difference between the formats, other than to state that they're quite similar. It's just deliberate incompatibility.
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html

That article you linked to left out DVD-RAM completely, and just compared -R/-RW with +R/+RW, which is odd, since most of the popular DVD-R/-RW recorders will have DVD-RAM. And most, if not all, of the advantages they listed for DVD+RW are available to DVD-RAM. In fact, most of the article enjoyed boasting about the benefits of DVD+RW compared to -R/-RW, several times mentioning the "nice little menus with pictures" as an advantage!

One of the things that have changed since the article was written is that Pioneer hav introduced VBR into their latest models, at a performance cost at the finalisation stage.

I wouldn't pay any attention to anything in that article. Pioneer are now using the 'all important' VBR (Seemingly more important to whoever wrote that article than to the rest of the world), and now they say there's something else wrong.

carrolls

Originally posted by combs
And most, if not all, of the advantages they listed for DVD+RW are available to DVD-RAM.

Do you not regard DVD-RAM's incompatibility with DVD ROM players as that big a deal?
There are only about 50 million DVD players out there.:D

Originally posted by combs
I wouldn't pay any attention to anything in that article. Pioneer are now using the 'all important' VBR (Seemingly more important to whoever wrote that article than to the rest of the world), and now they say there's something else wrong.

VBR might not seem that important, but if you record a fast action movie on say a DVD-r disk using a panasonic recorder in 2 hour mode, the results are horrible compared to the same movie on a pre recorded DVD. Philips recorders do quite a good job of same.
Pioneer think VBR is so important that they changed their intrinsic design and sacrificed performance to accomodate it.

combs

Originally posted by carrolls
Do you not regard DVD-RAM's incompatibility with DVD ROM players as that big a deal?

It's not a big deal. DVD-RAM isn't meant for compatibility. Besides, DVD-RAM can be played on many non recorders. DVD+RW isn't fully compatible either, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

VBR might not seem that important, but if you record a fast action movie on say a DVD-r disk using a panasonic recorder in 2 hour mode, the results are horrible compared to the same movie on a pre recorded DVD.

How do you know?

Pioneer think VBR is so important that they changed their intrinsic design and sacrificed performance to accomodate it.

Again, that's hear-say.

eoinf

like i said very early on the pioneer kicks ass give bill @alliance electric a bell he will give you a good price

John R

Originally posted by carrolls
Funnily you should mention that.;)
http://www.orinc.com/faq/dvd+-differences.html

BTW John It seems strange that Richer Sounds are now selling the DVDR 70 for €332 and they were selling the DVDR75 (much better spec) for €310 3 months ago.
In January Dixons Belfast were selling the DVDR75 for £369 (€566).
Dixons are usually savvy to the competition.

That article is not what I would call reliable, it is obviously biased.

What I think is strange is that you are defending a retailer who sell stock at such inflated prices. Dixons have always been bad value especially in the ROI. Your comparison is misleading as the price for the two recorders is the same, the increase is down to exchange rate fluctuation.

Koyaanisqatsi

I think Carrols is spot on with this one. Sorry Combs.
VBR allocates a given bitrate much more efficiently than CBR. CBR gives each scene basically the same space (not exactly the same, but close ). So, this means that a slow scene, such as the end credits, would be given the same bitrate as a fast action scene, such as the matrix lobby shooting spree.
VBR in theory takes the two recorded hours as a whole, and if there is little movement in some scenes, this space becomes free to be used in other fast moving scenes.

combs

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
I think Carrols is spot on with this one. Sorry Combs.
VBR allocates a given bitrate much more efficiently than CBR. CBR gives each scene basically the same space (not exactly the same, but close ). So, this means that a slow scene, such as the end credits, would be given the same bitrate as a fast action scene, such as the matrix lobby shooting spree.
VBR in theory takes the two recorded hours as a whole, and if there is little movement in some scenes, this space becomes free to be used in other fast moving scenes.

I didn't say carrolls was wrong about anything. I just thought it odd that he/she was making the claim that a DVD recorder was destined to be poor unless it used VBR. The importance of VBR was being overstated.

And I just checked the manual for my Panasonic and it uses VBR in the way you've just described, so that's all irrelevant now. It also has the option to disable it.

carrolls

The new Panasonic machines use a form of Hybrid VBR (Basically a hacked after-taught workaround) that when used inhibits the playback of the recorded DVD-r in a large percentage of DVD players new and old. Panasonic actually publish a list of DVD-r media that they say don't cause problems. (I'd dare you to buy a box of 25);)
Only trouble is NONE of the media mentioned are available in Dixons or PC World.
Ok you can switch Hybrid VBR off to reduce this problem, but then the picture is rubbish and theres still compatability issues with DVD -r.
Also a DVD-RAM recording when created on a Panasonic is not playable on DVD-RAM machines from some other manufacturers.

combs

Originally posted by carrolls
The new Panasonic machines use a form of Hybrid VBR (Basically a hacked after-taught workaround) that when used inhibits the playback of the recorded DVD-r in a large percentage of DVD players new and old. Panasonic actually publish a list of DVD-r media that they say don't cause problems. (I'd dare you to buy a box of 25);)
Only trouble is NONE of the media mentioned are available in Dixons or PC World.
Ok you can switch Hybrid VBR off to reduce this problem, but then the picture is rubbish and theres still compatability issues with DVD -r.
Also a DVD-RAM recording when created on a Panasonic is not playable on DVD-RAM machines from some other manufacturers.

You're demented.

carrolls

Originally posted by combs
You're demented.

I might or might not be, but even though you paid over the odds for sub-standard merchandise, and it hurts like hell, I'm not qualified enough to pass judgement on your mental or cognitive balance, so I won't insult you back.:D

Mutant_Fruit

Why not just go and build (or pay someone to build) your own MythTV recording device. Basically, all you need is an old computer (even a 500mhz will do i believe), a good capture card, and an infra-red reciever, and you have the beginnings of a kick ass digital TV recorder.

Buy an 80gb harddrive for less than EUR80, and then you have enough space for 80 hours of high quality recordings. With a good capture card, you can record on-the-fly at up to 8mbps, thats higher quality than some commercial dvd's.

And, you face NO compatibility issues. If you really want, you can then go buy a DVD burner, stick it in the same box, and the same software will allow you to burn your shows on DVD. And the drive wil be able to play back standard DVD's, and DVD+-R if needed. The whole thing could be gotten relatively cheaply if you already own an old computer. Or when your work next throws out the old computers, take one.

Aquos76

Right Guys, I am a question. I am looking to buy a dvd recorder, but I want to be able to copy my vhs tapes onto dvd and also direct from my dv camcorder to dvd.

I also want good quality from Sky Digital/Ntl Digital recordings. So guy which player would best suit my needs.

Thanks in advance

combs

I think most DVD recorders have a VHS transfer facility. The Panasonic entry model does for sure. It depends on what video output comes from your camcorder. It's usually just ****ty composite video so that should be fine too. To get good quality from Sky all you need is RGB input. Again, most, if not every, DVD recorder will have this. So it's just a matter of getting the best performing machine. And for that, go to the newsagents and but some What Hi-Fi / What Home Entertainment magazines and read their reviews.

Aquos76

Thanks for that. I am travelling to Dublin 2moro with the intention of buying one. I guess you would recommemd the Panasonic, But as I will be looking for an all region model what do u think of the Philips dvdr70 or 75

Thanks

bada_bing

well seeing as i started this thread a while ago, i thought i'd let you know what i went for. I was well aware of the problems that most people had with the phillips dvdr70 so before i actually bought it, i told the salesperson in D.I.D Eletricial what i knew and he guaranteed me that if there were any problems with it i could take it back and get a refund. So i thought that this was good enough for me as the other recommended dvdr's were at least €600 and the phillips dvdr cost €389 in D.I.D.

so took the dvdr home and it was ready to go in 30 mins, you can hook it up to your tv or vcr and i believe there should be no problems with a satelite receiver. I have already used up 6 dvd-rw's to record programmes and copied videos onto the dvd-rw. I have to say i'm pleasantly surprised that i have not had one problem so far and i can praise it even more for managing to capture the subtitles when they are activated on the vcr screen. I have already had it for about 6 weeks now and it was definitely well worth it.

though what i have just posted is no guarantee that it'll work perfect for others but as an entry level model, it delivers.

Aquos76

Thanks for that m8. As carrolls has posted earlier in the thread that he has this model also, and from his input to this thread I assume that he is also happy with it. I'll do the rounds tomorrow, Currys, Dixions, PowerCity, DID, and Harvey Norman.

I'll post how I got on later in the week.

Thanks

combs

Oh carrolls is definitely happy with his, but no offence to him, I was beginning to suspect he worked for Philips. That Philips DVD Recorder is clearly the most widely available. In fact it's about the only one you see advertised in newspaper ads and such. It seems to be the cheapest too, but it's hard to keep up with the prices of the other models when few shops seem to stock them.

Personally, I'd read a few reviews before buying to see which is the best entry level model right now. I just checked Peats and they have Panasonic, Pioneer and Sony and JVC models in stock. They start at E500 though. Be wary of those shops you mentioned; most of them only stock certain brands and not all models from those brands. I hate that. It's best to decide what you want then see which shop will sell it to you the cheapest.

John R

If you want to transfer from your DV camcorder the Philips DVDR75 has a firewire input for digital input with the 70 you will have to use the analogue composite or s-video input which is lower quality.

Aquos76

Thanks guys

After some serious shopping around I noticed that Dixions and Currys both stock the philips dvdr70 and dvdr75 for €389.99 and €499.99. Now Currys in Blanchardstown have a mistake on their dvdr70. They have it for €329.99 instead off €459.99 with €70.00 off. They took the €70.00 from the €389.99.

But anyway I ended up buying the dvdr75 simply because of the i-link function from richersounds for €399.99. I know carrolls mentioned that this was cheaper earlier in the year but this was the price listed on the website and compared to phillips's own RRP this was very good value. All going well I will have it by Thursday/Friday.

Now to source some cheap places to buy dvd+r and dvd+rw discs from. Any ideas guys.

Thanks again. I enjoyed reading through this thread.

John R

http://www.blankdiscshop.co.uk/ have very good prices but their delivery charges are very high (over €8 for 25 discs) especially considering they charge almost no delivery to UK.

http://www.pricestorm.com are cheap and have free delivery but +R stock is not great, better for -R. They have some good +RW; 10 Datasafe discs for about €18.

http://www.pcn.ie have some good prices but high delivery (they only use courier, no post)

There are lots of other cheap on-line stores, search posts on this board and in Bargain Alerts in the classifieds section.

carrolls

Which format will win the battle?
Don't take my word for it.

The DVD+RW/RW (or DVD plus) format has gained a wider acceptance than DVD-R/RW (or DVD minus) in markets worldwide. In Europe, DVD+RW products have captured a 76 percent share of the DVD market, while DVD-RW and DVD-RAM have 14 percent and 10 percent, respectively. In the United States, DVD+RW has a 72 percent market share, while 19 percent goes to DVD-RW and 9 percent to DVD-RAM.

See articles.
http://www.globalsources.com/am/article_id/9000000049901/page/showarticle?action=GetArticle#goto4

John R

The + format does seem to be winning in the home recorder market, mainly due to more and cheaper recorders being available.
However -r disks are much more widely avaible atm and are generally cheaper too, mostly due to the PC recorder market.