Use of Martial Arts vs Serious Jail Time

briano

A simple question for you, but one that I haven't been able to get out of my head recently.

If a friend of yours (or even just a random person) was attacked, on the street, in a pub, wherever, and you were there, What would you do?

Now, up until recently my answer has always been something along the lines of "Help the person being attacked". This "help" has previously involved everything from just roaring at the attackers (I'm a big bloke and can get away with it) to physicaly stopping an attacker (see above).

But the other day I was reading up on the anabel's case. Laide's story, which I believe, is that he saw his friend (Frame) being attacked, went to his aid, and then left the fight. The judge's ruling was something along the lines of even though Laide had not been in the group when Murphy was recieved the kicks, he had been responsible for escalating the violence. He, as we all know, recieved 4 years for doing exactly what I have done in the past, namely helping the person being attacked.

This is not a post about the Anabel's case, but I think it relates to it somewhat. But there is a post about anabels on the politics board, if you want to comment on it.

As students of martial arts should we not aid people being attacked? And should we be held MORE responsible for our actions in a fight then a person who does not do any martial training? And like the fella on the tv says: What would you do?

Puck

It's a tricky situation and I couldn't tell you for sure what I'd really end up doing but I suppose I'd try to get my friend out of there fast (even if it means grabbing my friend and walking/running away and completely ignoring the other guy) and find the police if necessary. Police are trained to deal with this sort of thing and it's not anyone's job to be some kind of vigilante.

Sometimes stepping in to defend someone when you don't know the full story can backfire on you. For instance the two people could just be two friends having a row and stepping into that row yourself can cause both of them to turn on you.

When I saw the title of this thread I was reminded of the saying "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

briano

Its a good saying for sure.

I wasn't suggesting that I run in to every fight I see, swinging fists and doing jumping kicks, but I would always have a look to see what was hapening.

And, of course, if the Gardai are around then leave it to them.

xx

Arsebiscuits to that, I'm no good samaritian. If life has thought me anything its thought me that there are 2 sides to every story. So what, you see a guy getting the crap knocked out of him by two lads - what do you think? Two scumbags jumping some innocent guy? Or maybe 2 lads attacking some little knacker that tried to nick one of their wallets? 2 sides.
Its even worse if one of your mates gets in a scrape with someone or some people. They're your mate, fine, but that doesn't mean that they're always right. Some mates can be a real liability when they get a bit pished.
Had to laugh when I read Briano's comment "As students of martial arts should we not aid people being attacked". WTF are you? Jesus man, this isn't ancient japan or something. Gimme a sword and yeah maybe, but acting the hero in dublin at 3am in the morning isn't the wisest thing to do.
Personally speaking, if I HAD to help someone, I'd skulk 'til the offenders (there's nearly always more than 1) had their backs to me and then I'd shank them. I'm no coward, far from it, but things are too unpredicatble these days to be going gung-ho to everyone's rescue.

xx

Originally posted by Puck
Police are trained to deal with this sort of thing...

We're still talking about dublin here, are we? If so, then the above is cobblers.

briano

Ok, I re-read that, And it does sound a bit naff. Very naff in fact, enough so to make me cringe.

The question I meant to ask was Are we supposed to not help people out who are being kicked around?

And I'm not talking about walking around town at three in the morning looking for fights to rush into either. The question comes from reading the "Best Martial Art for self defense" post, and it lead me to wondering that even if you did get good enough to use some techniques and handed the other person their arse back to them, would it be worth it faced with the prospect of serious jail time.

xx

Originally posted by briano
Ok, I re-read that, And it does sound a bit naff. Very naff in fact, enough so to make me cringe.

The question I meant to ask was Are we supposed to not help people out who are being kicked around?

And I'm not talking about walking around town at three in the morning looking for fights to rush into either. The question comes from reading the "Best Martial Art for self defense" post, and it lead me to wondering that even if you did get good enough to use some techniques and handed the other person their arse back to them, would it be worth it faced with the prospect of serious jail time.

Ok, I just want to get this straight cuz your wording is a little bit 'out there' . The question is "should we, if we're good enough with our martial art, intervene in fights to help people"? Hmmmm...odd question. Well I'm only a meagre yellow belt in Judo (but have got a fair bit of experience in ju-jitsu and sambo) but I'd never EVER intervene on my own in a fight between people that I didn't know. If someone was getting a serious roughing up, I'd get some people to help (either friends or punters on the street). Not to wade in like a horde of psychos and destroy everyone but to just break things up. I think we owe at least that to our fellow human beings. But going in and kicking the arses of the people who had the upper hand / number advantage etc. without knowing whats going on - no f'ing way. Thats a bit too righteous in my opinion.
Anyway, does anyone have an answer to THIS question - what is the story if you are brought up before the courts and they find out you've got a black belt or something? Do they make the sentence worse? It harkens me back to the beginning of Con Air the movie. Nicholas Cage gets serious jailtime because he was in the army and had 'special training'. I know that was a movie but it does beg the question - would you get a stiffer sentence for being a martial artist? Something tells me you would. In Ireland these days, if I'm to believe everything I see on the news, the day of the good guy are gone. Scumbags, pretty much no matter what they do, can get out of jail overnight. But innocent folks can't even attack someone who breaks into their home in order to drive them out. Whats people's take on this, I'd be very interested to hear.

Cake Fiend

I've heard that about martial artists being judged more harshly too. Couldn't say how true it is, but I'd imagine it's probably based around the idea that a martial artist attacking someone would be more dangerous (obviously enough) than Joe Average attacking someone. Ignorant judges would maybe equate a black belt armed with fists and feet to someone wielding a blunt weapon of some sort.

Musashi

Personally I'll fight to defend myself as a last resort when u just know "it's on" and no verbal de-escalation is going to work.I'll do it quicker to defend my wife or the GF's of my mates.My mates I'll drag away or seperate from the aggro once it's safe for me to do so.My brother I'll wait until he's finished crushing his opponnent
Any one else is on their own, cute girls or old ladies may be exceptions!
I had a mate stop three lads pounding on some eejit, only to be told said eejit had raped one of the lads sister!I am not putting myself in the middle of that!
As far as I know but may be able to check, an amateur boxer or MA will generally be regarded as more "dangerous" all else being equal.Something like fist on fist or stick on stick is ok but unarmed on trained fighter is not so fair,the whole reason I bothered to learn to fight!

Lemming

The justice system WILL look unfavourably on you if you have any sort of MA background, even if what happened wasn't your fault or wasn't serious.

A chap I used to train with had an entire year of his life turned upside down by some little local drug-taking lying knacker (who was known to the local gardai as such). The guy in question escorted the little git out of the shop he was working in for causing trouble or some such.

Knacker-boy went to the gardai. When the gardai found out that the guy had an MA background everything changed and they took the side of the scumbag.

Took over a year to resolve as far as I can recall - with a lot of grief for it.

You get the idea.

xx

Originally posted by Lemming
The justice system WILL look unfavourably on you if you have any sort of MA background, even if what happened wasn't your fault or wasn't serious.

A chap I used to train with had an entire year of his life turned upside down by some little local drug-taking lying knacker (who was known to the local gardai as such). The guy in question escorted the little git out of the shop he was working in for causing trouble or some such.

Knacker-boy went to the gardai. When the gardai found out that the guy had an MA background everything changed and they took the side of the scumbag.

Took over a year to resolve as far as I can recall - with a lot of grief for it.
You get the idea.

This is the kind of worst-case scenario that I hate to hear about. Some random punter (sorry lem, couldn't resist) getting royally shafted by the dirt contingent of this city. It doesn't surprise me though, I sort of knew that martial artists would get leaned on more than norms if a claim is made against them. Is it me or does this, and the laws about not doing anything to a person who breaks into your home, seem like the government is trying to promote a don'ts-stand-up-for-yourself type attitude? I find it really frigging annoying really. Whats the point in knowing a martial art if you can't use it to defend yourself. Scumbags don't appear to try to restrain themselves when they start on people so why should we?

ehunt3_14

That would be me your discussing. As such I would like to point out that although the basic jist of what Lemming has written is correct the facts as have been presented in his post are not factual. It is a story that I was not aware was so widespread, furthermore it has been exaggerrated and distorted with time, as the events described occurred over a year ago.

Lemming could you please email me, in regards as to how you heard of this story and who you are? I'd like, if possible, to clarify the details, especially if this concerns my club and the views of others expressed in the dojo. As I'm sure you can appreciate, it is still a rather sensitive subject and association with it is damaging to my continued studies in MA.

In regards to the questions over the legal issue of using martial arts in actual street situations, I'm pretty well versed in the legal rights and have posted on other forums in relation to the matter. However I'd prefer to talk to Lemming first if possible before I discuss this.

If anyone has any particular questions regarding legality and the martial arts I will do my best to answer them.

xx

Originally posted by ehunt3_14
...it is damaging to my continued studies in MA

Pray tell, what is it you study that could be affected so? Politics?

ehunt3_14

No, not politics so to speak. Simply put, it may be inconvenient for a martial arts instructor to have a student who was once charged and prosecuted for assault using skills associated with the martial arts. The public image of martial artists is still not one entirely accepted. All though not all, a lot of people still feel that martial artists are generally speaking a violent group of individuals who enjoy fighting. Also the laws governing martial arts in this country are often written by those who have little to no actual experience with them, and as such they often overreact. It could be awkward for the club, particularly if they have juniors or children in it, to have members who have been associated with violent crimes. Parents for instance, I’m sure, would not take kindly to their children sparring with someone who has been involved with this sort of action. As such most clubs contain a clause stating that members have no previous convictions etc…

In all fairness the majority of instructors I have trained with have been most understanding once the situation has been explained to them, however I try to be considerate of the entire clubs needs and feelings, as such I am obviously concerned with their opinions, hence my inquiry in regards to what Lemming posted.

I hope this answers your question.

xx

Originally posted by ehunt3_14
The public image of martial artists is still not one entirely accepted. All though not all, a lot of people still feel that martial artists are generally speaking a violent group of individuals who enjoy fighting.


In all fairness the majority of instructors I have trained with have been most understanding once the situation has been explained to them, however I try to be considerate of the entire clubs needs and feelings, as such I am obviously concerned with their opinions, hence my inquiry in regards to what Lemming posted.

I don't agree here. From my experience, most people think Martial Arts are a joke. I've told guys that I know and am aquainted with about the fact that I do Judo and they don't seem to grasp the concept at all. They still believe that I'm so harmless chappie incapable of hurting a fly. Even after giving this a$$hole an evil Ippon Seonagi onto a kerb one night outside a local nightclub, they still don't believe I'm any more capable of defending myself. This could be due to many factors, on the other hand. Martial Arts movies bringing OTT martial arts to the big screen for example *coughthematrixcough*. Or maybe that I'm a sort of quiet guy anyway and don't get into trouble.

About your other point, I don't think there was any need for you to totally explain yourself to your instructors. They are teaching you martial arts, a way to defend yourself and/or do harm to others, what do they expect? Ok, granted, most of us would rather go through life without frequent confrontations that require us to use these skills but in all honesty if your instructions don't believe that one of their students, any student, is going to get in a situation from using them at some point, then they're a little short-sighted.

Example: You teach someone Thai boxing - some pr1ck starts trouble with the guy - he kicks the $hit out of them. What would the trainers expect him to do? Try to de-escalate the situation? Of course, but if it goes to blows then its going to be an eventuality that the guy is gonna put his dukes up and come out swingin'. Trainers should be aware of this.

It was the same with me Judo throwing the guy. I was put into a situation and I did it. When I told the trainer and the other guys in the club, they didn't seem alarmed in any way, in fact the were sort of comfortable with the idea. I think you're over-reacting with the whole "inconvenient for a martial arts instructor " bit really.

Sleepy

TBH, is that not just someone being extremely courteous to the wishes and feelings of others? I'd see e_hunt as someone to be lauded for informing any club he gets involved with for notifying them of this situation, not criticised. It's understandable for parents of kids in a martial arts club to be concerned if a member of that club has had criminal charges brought against them for use of the skills taught in that club. Even if those charges were brought against that person unjustly.

ehunt3_14

Hi xx,

In regards to your opening comment I quite agree that the martial arts can be veiwed as a joke by many. In my experience some make fun, some think you're a psycho.

Do martial arts actually give you the ability to defend yourself? This is an arguement that has and will continue to be debated forever. Personally I feel that martial arts skills don't actually help that much. Planting someone into a kerb with a Judo technique does not mean you can defend yourself, it just means that you put someone into a kerb, and is it even necessary? I don't know about you but hurting people has atendency to make me feel lousy. I sincerely hope other martial artists feel that way. There is a tremendous amount of guilt one should feel when having done something like that. Questions like; Could I have done something else? Could I have used a different technique? The worse part is that the answer is always yes. It sounds trite and cliched but do you know why, in the majority of cases, someone uses a martial arts technique on someone else? Its not a noble act, its not heroism, its not bravery, its vanity. Vanity and Ego.

I'll be honest I did not have to escourt that young man from the store I was working in. I did not have to stop him destroying the store. I did not have to stop him harrassing the other customers and staff. That was not my job. My job was to serve, to take people's money and give them goods in return. To stop him was the job of the aging security guard. I did what I did because of Ego. Because of Vanity. Beause I trained in the martial arts and thought I could deal with it. Because I assumed responsability that was not mine. (The great irony of this is that I did not use a martial arts technique, I put my hand on his back and walked him to the door and close it behind him. He told the police I had used a karate technique to throw him into the pavement and then kick him repeatedly.)

Yes. We are martial artists. Yes we are trained to deal with violence. Yes we have a moral duty to help those in need. That moral duty is fufilled by calling the appropraite authorities. We have a duty to obey the law. I know that when you see some girl getting smacked by her boyfriend outside a bar that you want to wade in and save her, and you know you could take the guy, do the right thing morally. I do to. I won't though, not anymore. I'll phone the police, I'll attract attention. I won't lay a hand on the guy. And aside from this appeal, think of the consequences.

You try to stop the girls boyfriend smacking her and you **** up. She falls over, strikes her head off the corner of the wall. She's dead. Take your example, what if that guy had cracked his head when he hit the kerb? He'd be dead, and you would be prosecuted. Is it worth it to prove to your mates that your hard, that you're a hero?

I apologize for the pompousness of this post. I apologive for the holier than thou attitude, but I am really scarred when I hear things like this. I got off very lucky, and I was able to realise how utterly stupid and moronic and egotistical I was. I wish someone had told me what would happen.

And that I feel, is the responsability of instructors. Don't be foolish and think that know one is going to use what you've shown them, just make sure they know when to use it.

Cake Fiend

Originally posted by xx
I don't agree here. From my experience, most people think Martial Arts are a joke. I've told guys that I know and am aquainted with about the fact that I do Judo and they don't seem to grasp the concept at all. They still believe that I'm so harmless chappie incapable of hurting a fly.

I reckon it could be to do with the relative lack of media popularity of judo. When I tell people I do karate for e.g., people tend to think I can kick anyone's ass :rolleyes:

ehunt: out of curiosity, were you personally charged and/or prosecuted? Did the police take the word of the scumbag(s) that accused you? Was it simply a case of his mate lying and saying he saw you hit/kick/whatever? I find it shocking that the police would side with a (presumably known) troublemaker, even if his knacker mates testified alongside. Did you have security camera footage at all? Did the security guard present make a statement? Was there anyone else who saw what actually happened?

Sure, hindsight being 20/20 and all that, you possibly could have chosen a better option, but that doesn't change the fact that toerags like this shouldn't be able to have someone charged wrongfully like this.

xx

Originally posted by ehunt3_14
Do martial arts actually give you the ability to defend yourself? This is an arguement that has and will continue to be debated forever. Personally I feel that martial arts skills don't actually help that much.

......some stuff deleted out....

Yes. We are martial artists. Yes we are trained to deal with violence.

I hate to be the bringer of bad tidings, but your above argument is riddled with a serious lack of continuity. First you don't think that its good for defense, then you say that we (as martial artists) are trained to deal with violence, so which is it?
Personally, and I want to keep this in practical terms instead of cruising into the whole philosophy area, I don't think that anyone is really 'trained' to deal with violence, per se. People have a way of adapting to it maybe, and if you experience it on a frequenct basis, you get better at adapting to it. Maybe this is why its hard to draw the line on who'd be a better fighter, a martial artist or some street thug - both are experienced in and have skills at 'fighting' which could be on a par.
About what happened to you though, I wouldn't say its anything to do with Ego or Vanity, that's a little too out of place with the argument. I just think it was the fact that you didn't want some scumbag wrecking your place of work? I know it wasn't in your contract or whatever to do anything about it, but c'mon, I don't think I would've stood around and watched that little $hit wrecking the gaff either. Its that sort of tolerance of scumbag behaviour that makes them as bad as they are; they get away with it a few times and they'll keep on doing it because THEY ARE SCUM. And then, on a once off occassion where someone shows the little kunt to the door, they freak out and in come the cops who take their side because....well, just because. This is an element in this society that I don't think I'll ever get used to.

ehunt3_14

Hi,

xx in regards to the continuity errors, it did sound very confusing when I read it back. To clarify I agree completely with what you said about adaptaion. As martial artist, particularly those in a competitive style, we become used to violence, e.g fists and feet come flying towards you, and also the damage that can be done tot eh human body. In such a respect we adapt to voilence stimulus and hopefully can respond with a calmer and more controlled attitude than demonstrated before studing martial arts.

At the same time I do not feel that this adaptation to violence greatly enhances your ability to defend yourself. Most dojo's still train in a static manner, or presenbt and recieve approach eg. one step, three step and 5 step sparring routines. While these have there benefits they do not facilitate they development of key sparring/fighting skills. This is easily observable in many dojo's where we have very competant people executing very good technique and then when faced by an uncoperative opponent in free-sparring/kumite etc they fall to peices and are cnsistently tagged by the opponent.

How many times have we all heard stories about the black belt who went into a fight, stood in his deadly karate stance and did a beautiful looking spinning roundhouse kick, Van Damme style and ended up finishing his demonstration of lethal technique by taking a nap on the floor?

If I honetly analyse the techniques I know from the martial arts and I'm good at a few and how many I would use in actual fight they often don't match up. I wouldn't use a reverse punch, I probably wouldn't use a jab, in all likely hood I'd just keep hitting them in the face with open hands and slaps while flaying wildly withmy legs. (Strangely similar to krav, granted, but they probably do things better than most).

In regards to the rest I appreciate how you feel, and believe me I agree I din't want the guy in my store, nor did anybody else. The differnce between me and everybody else in there is that I had an ego the size of Europe that said "Hey you do martial arts, you're great, you can deal with him...go put on that blue spandex suit with the red cape and the big S and while your walking to the door don't forget to give him a good stern lecture about how he should stay in school and not do drugs". And so I, instead of the other people there removed him.

And I do agree with you it this sort of attitude, (what I once termed the moral cowerdice of society) that allows these people do what they do, hence the increase in street violence and petty crime in this country. In fact about a year ago, I would have said everything you have said, I even had a letter published in the Irish Independant stating that I would no longer tolerate that kind of attitude and that people should stand up for there beliefs and refuse to be bullied by common thugs.

Thinking about it I think the sentiment was right, but that the action was wrong. We have people who are employed to keep the peace and although I very strongly believe that it is the civic duty of everyone to ensure this, it does not mean that the answer is to wade in and do it yourself. You do it by phoning the police and taking as many details down as possible, clothing, height, car reg etc. Previously I wouldn't think twice about a situation as small as the one that occured in my store fallling under that catagory, (hell niether did the police, but then...), still it does. Had I just called the police, my parents wouldn't have to be embarrassed or humiliated, expensive legal fees would not have to payed, I wouldn't have missed over six months of my final year in college, I'd have a job, and I'd probably be training and living in Japan.

Is this change of heart motivated by fear of the repecussions and cowerdice? I hope so.

My apologies again for the legnth of this post, I have to learn to edit.

ehunt3_14

Hi Sico,

My apologies for not having answered your questions sooner.

Iwas both charged and prosecuted. The police came for me at my house, then my workplace, and finally took me in when I was in UCD, in front of my friends, gilrfriend and lecturers.

It went to court but the charges against me were later removed and it was dropped.

The guy in question made a statement to the police saying that I dragged him from the store, threw him on the ground, where he injured his shoulder and proceded to kick and beat him in the shoulder for a number of minutes. The police treatd the matter very seriously and came up to the store. I then showed them the security video which showed me removing him politely and leaving him outside the door, which I then locked and he banged, screamed and made faces on the window. They said I shouldn't worry about it.

Now here's the interesting bit... they showed the tape to the guy and his family. And then he "remembered" that it hadn't happened the way he originally thought, and that while removing him I caused his injury. He changed his story. And then I was taken in.

Furthermore, the police lost the security camera footage, thereby losing the only evidence I had.

In regards to other people present there were several customers in the store, three of the guys freinds, his sister (who was a friend of mine at the time and who I was tutoring in classics and philosophy), and two other members of staff. Apparently no body saw anything.

If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.

xx

Originally posted by ehunt3_14
Hi,

xx in regards to the continuity errors, it did sound very confusing when I read it back. To clarify I agree completely with what you said about adaptaion. As martial artist, particularly those in a competitive style, we become used to violence, e.g fists and feet come flying towards you, and also the damage that can be done tot eh human body. In such a respect we adapt to voilence stimulus and hopefully can respond with a calmer and more controlled attitude than demonstrated before studing martial arts.

At the same time I do not feel that this adaptation to violence greatly enhances your ability to defend yourself. Most dojo's still train in a static manner, or presenbt and recieve approach eg. one step, three step and 5 step sparring routines. While these have there benefits they do not facilitate they development of key sparring/fighting skills. This is easily observable in many dojo's where we have very competant people executing very good technique and then when faced by an uncoperative opponent in free-sparring/kumite etc they fall to peices and are cnsistently tagged by the opponent.

How many times have we all heard stories about the black belt who went into a fight, stood in his deadly karate stance and did a beautiful looking spinning roundhouse kick, Van Damme style and ended up finishing his demonstration of lethal technique by taking a nap on the floor?

If I honetly analyse the techniques I know from the martial arts and I'm good at a few and how many I would use in actual fight they often don't match up. I wouldn't use a reverse punch, I probably wouldn't use a jab, in all likely hood I'd just keep hitting them in the face with open hands and slaps while flaying wildly withmy legs. (Strangely similar to krav, granted, but they probably do things better than most).

In regards to the rest I appreciate how you feel, and believe me I agree I din't want the guy in my store, nor did anybody else. The differnce between me and everybody else in there is that I had an ego the size of Europe that said "Hey you do martial arts, you're great, you can deal with him...go put on that blue spandex suit with the red cape and the big S and while your walking to the door don't forget to give him a good stern lecture about how he should stay in school and not do drugs". And so I, instead of the other people there removed him.

And I do agree with you it this sort of attitude, (what I once termed the moral cowerdice of society) that allows these people do what they do, hence the increase in street violence and petty crime in this country. In fact about a year ago, I would have said everything you have said, I even had a letter published in the Irish Independant stating that I would no longer tolerate that kind of attitude and that people should stand up for there beliefs and refuse to be bullied by common thugs.

Thinking about it I think the sentiment was right, but that the action was wrong. We have people who are employed to keep the peace and although I very strongly believe that it is the civic duty of everyone to ensure this, it does not mean that the answer is to wade in and do it yourself. You do it by phoning the police and taking as many details down as possible, clothing, height, car reg etc. Previously I wouldn't think twice about a situation as small as the one that occured in my store fallling under that catagory, (hell niether did the police, but then...), still it does. Had I just called the police, my parents wouldn't have to be embarrassed or humiliated, expensive legal fees would not have to payed, I wouldn't have missed over six months of my final year in college, I'd have a job, and I'd probably be training and living in Japan.

Is this change of heart motivated by fear of the repecussions and cowerdice? I hope so.

My apologies again for the legnth of this post, I have to learn to edit.

To be honest, if I was you back then, I'd have probably did the exact same thing. Call it houseproud, but I don't think I could've stood by idly and watched some little dreg of society wreck the place. Much to the average irish citizens folly, we all seem to believe that the law would be on our side in something like this, but alas its not, as your example pays testament to. I really do feel for you though; your case was dealt with as incompetantly as possible, it appeared (loosing evidence, coming for you at college etc.).