Zataochi

RasTa

Anyone seen this yet ? if so what did yous think, i personally thought it was brillant just a fun film not to be taken to seriously.
For those who dont know what its about its directed by Takeshi Kitano. Its only showing in ugc and the ifi.

mithrandir

Saw this yesterday and really liked it too. Wasn't sure at first because it is a very different style of samurai movie but by the end I thought it was very satisfying. That Kitano certainly has an interesting style of directing, I liked all the choreographed sequences even the ones that weren't necessary to the overall plot of the movie, they still added to the movie in a nice way. I was originally meant to see this during the Jameson film festival but couldn't make it so was delighted to get a second chance to see it (in UGC).

Bazz

RasTa, how dare you mention Zatoichi in the same breath as Kill Bill.. Kill Bill is the daddy of style and substance action movies. Granted, Zatoichi is a superd piece of samurai movie making but it is not worthy of, excuse the crudness, wiping The Brides' arse.

Reasons:

One: Tarentino intentially made Kill Bill to be over-the-top. Not accidentally.

Two: It is a far more complex piece, exploring various themes, morals, and genres

Three:It has far more developed charicters. The Bride is as ambiguous as the lead charicters in Zatoichi.

Four: The fight sequences were better executed and choreographed.

Five:Kill Bill is a modern masterpiece. Exhuming dead methods of extreme filmmaking and Martial Arts in filmmaking.

Six: You don't know squat...

Makaveli

Where does he mention Kill Bill?

RasTa

Ah i know Bazz, He aint happy because i keep on winding him up saying its a much better film then Kill Bill

Karl Hungus

I've been waiting for Zatoichi to come out for ages now, and I probably wont see it here in Galway untill I get it on DVD some time in the future. But god I'm looking farward to it!

Don't suppose anyone knows anything of a release here in Galway?

Originally posted by Bazz
RasTa, how dare you mention Zatoichi in the same breath as Kill Bill.. Kill Bill is the daddy of style and substance action movies. Granted, Zatoichi is a superd piece of samurai movie making but it is not worthy of, excuse the crudness, wiping The Brides' arse.

Reasons:

One: Tarentino intentially made Kill Bill to be over-the-top. Not accidentally.

Two: It is a far more complex piece, exploring various themes, morals, and genres

Three:It has far more developed charicters. The Bride is as ambiguous as the lead charicters in Zatoichi.

Four: The fight sequences were better executed and choreographed.

Five:Kill Bill is a modern masterpiece. Exhuming dead methods of extreme filmmaking and Martial Arts in filmmaking.

Six: You don't know squat...

Oh dear god what tripe!

Kill Bill is nothing but a shallow rip-off of the film Lady Snowblood, and numerous other sources. I'd also point out that the same guy who directed the action scenes of the Matrix, and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is responsible for what you see in Kill Bill.

So what Tarantino has done, is steal a plot, then get someone else to direct all the action, in a predominantly action-driven film. He's a hack and a phoney of the greatest hollywood proportions, and HOW DARE YOU mention him in the same breath as Kitano, or meantion Kill Bill in the same breath as Zatoichi!?

Such insolence!

RasTa

Well said dude, Its deffo worth seeing in the cinema aswell. In Dublin its only on in UGC and the IFI im sure some place in Galway must be showing it.

netman

I'm really looking forward to seeing this film.. I wanted to see it in Brussels a few months ago but couldn't handle the french subtitles, really glad it made it to Ireland!

And yeah.. kill bill.. tarantino's really lost it..

I mean it's an all-right action film, if you liked kung-fu films as a kid, you'll like kill bill, but there's nothing spectacular about it. Just a mish-mash of all the different cliche's and lots of action. I expect more from Zatoichi.

Memnoch

Originally posted by Bazz
RasTa, how dare you mention Zatoichi in the same breath as Kill Bill.. Kill Bill is the daddy of style and substance action movies. Granted, Zatoichi is a superd piece of samurai movie making but it is not worthy of, excuse the crudness, wiping The Brides' arse.

Reasons:

One: Tarentino intentially made Kill Bill to be over-the-top. Not accidentally.

Two: It is a far more complex piece, exploring various themes, morals, and genres

Three:It has far more developed charicters. The Bride is as ambiguous as the lead charicters in Zatoichi.

Four: The fight sequences were better executed and choreographed.

Five:Kill Bill is a modern masterpiece. Exhuming dead methods of extreme filmmaking and Martial Arts in filmmaking.

Six: You don't know squat...

don't get me wrong, I liked Kill bill, I really did, but Zatoichi is much much better.

One - Actually Kill Bill, isn't half as over the top as zatoichi. Just look at the pools of blood shot after every fight scene...

Two - actually Zatochi is far deeper than Kill Bill. Just because the morals and ideas aren't hammered into your face with a nail doesn't mean it isn't as deep. Zatoichi deals with a kind of moral ambiguity thats hard to define. Zatoichi depects reality, the harshness of it, the cruelty of it, ppl die, no one cares, the strong rule, the weak submit, those who can kill will do so if it suits their interests.

Three - The bride is not nearly as ambiguous as Zatoichi. She was a paid assassin who was screwed over by her gang when she tried to quit the business. She thinks they killed her friends/husband to be/unborn child and nearly her and she wants revenge. As for Zatoichi himself, you don't know anything about him, what are his true motiviations? where did he come from? why did he fight? why does he kill who he does? why is he blind etc etc etc.

Four - The fight scenes in kill bill were artificial, though I agree they were "better choreographed" the fights in zatoichi were FAR more realistic. In a real sword fight, you don't have one person locking swords with their opponent for so long, even amongst outstanding fighters it takes one mistake and its all over, and this tends to happen very fast, in very few moves. And seriously pls dont' go on about the amazing fight scene's in kill bill, because as much as I enjoyed them, you can CLEARLY see always most of the people in the background supposed to be fighting the bride just standing around waving their swords "pretending" to fight, in no other martial arts film has this been more noticable.

Five - You mean kill bill has no originality or creativity? It simply steals the best from other moves and mashes it together? Zatoichi has many orignal concepts in it, even though I found it a bit strange, I loved the way the surroundings were blended into the music. And more importantly zatoichi doesn't fall prey a lot of the times to typical moral cliche's, though it does in some cases.

Six - pot kettle black

p.s. I know as coming accross in this thread as hating kill bill. I don't, i really LOVED that movie, but Zatoichi is still better imo, and I didn't like seeing someone be-little it unfairly.

CodeMonkey

Zatoichi IS a better film in many ways but oh my god that tap dancing sequence is so unneccessary!

Memnoch

Originally posted by CodeMonkey
Zatoichi IS a better film in many ways but oh my god that tap dancing sequence is so unneccessary!

aye, but it was funny

goo

Speaking of unnecessary, the animation scene in Kill Bill was completely uninspired and totally useless. It's a fun film otherwise, so I thought that was a real shame.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I thought the tap dancing scene in zatoichi was fantastic, the music throughout the entire film was unreal and it was a great way to end the film.

zatoichi was a far superior film to kill bill

ixoy

Just saw the movie - I'd be tempted to get it on DVD for the tap dancing alone. The fact that there's many other similiarly well timed musical pieces makes it almost a dead cert. When you add in Zataoichi's moves... I'm not going to compare it to Kill Bill - I like both movies. This is the best movie currently on release.

netman

Originally posted by goo
Speaking of unnecessary, the animation scene in Kill Bill was completely uninspired and totally useless. It's a fun film otherwise, so I thought that was a real shame.

actually i found it to be a great tribute to the anime genre and the japanese cinematography. it was also a nice creative touch turning the theatrical film into an animated film. both can be very expressive but in different ways.

it was actually things like those that i liked about kill bill.. the anime bit, the girl from battle royale, tribute to bruce lee and the yellow tracksuit..

i'm sure there was a john woo pisstake somewhere in there too

MiCr0

i went to see it last night and i though it was amazing
the grand finale wasn't what you expect at all...........and had heard about it in advance.

the comic parts were genuinely funny, from the odd slapstick to the parts with the neighbour samauri.

9.5/10

RasTa

Also i aint going to compare it to Kill Bill until after the 2nd volume comes out. But i prefer the style of Zatoichi so far. Takeshi is such a bad ass, a proper Samurai if compared to Uma Thurman . I heard people moan about the cgi blood which i thought was fine, also thought it was a very different movie to Kitanos other works but still had that slow pace feel to it with some great comedy moments. Actually the more i think about it, It tore Kill Bill to pieces but then again i have only seen Kill Bill once and i totally forget what happened.

Has anyone seen the original movies Zatoichi is based on ? There on sale on amazon and was wondering if they are any use. Still have Tokyo Story to watch which i dont know to much about, hope it blows me away like Seven Samurai. Speaking of Kurosawa has anyone seen Ikiru ? thinking of doing a blind purchase on it

Cianan2

Is this Takeshi Kitano.......Takeshi's Castle?????

sleepwalker

its a pretty good film an interesting film but it didnt exactly have me rushing out of the cinema all excited like kill bill did. the music was cool but preferred the music in kill bill. very different films anyway really so hard to compare


the first 30 minutes was rubbish but it got a hell of alot better as it went on. the fight scenes in it were actually fairly bleh nuthing too exciting and some of the slow motion stuff seemed fairly cheap and tacked on for the sake of it. i thought the cgi blood was probably the best thing about the fights. the best bits of the film were outside of the fighting scenes which is suprising for a samurai flick. good film but ignore the hype it is not touching kill bill.

Oh dear god what tripe!

Kill Bill is nothing but a shallow rip-off of the film Lady Snowblood, and numerous other sources. I'd also point out that the same guy who directed the action scenes of the Matrix, and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is responsible for what you see in Kill Bill.

So what Tarantino has done, is steal a plot, then get someone else to direct all the action, in a predominantly action-driven film. He's a hack and a phoney of the greatest hollywood proportions, and HOW DARE YOU mention him in the same breath as Kitano, or meantion Kill Bill in the same breath as Zatoichi!?

Such insolence!

yes and the action scenes in both the matrix and crouching tiger hidden dragon are superb. how do u know he got somebody else to do all of the directing for him were you on set all the time ? is it not possible that he put his ideas through this person to choregraph to the actors since tarantino aint exactly trained in martial arts

go back to your Vampires DVD your not worthy of Tarantinos films!

ixoy

Originally posted by Cianan2
Is this Takeshi Kitano.......Takeshi's Castle?????

One and the same. I think it'd be most amusing for him to incorporate his samurai slaying powers into the show for those who fail....

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by RasTa
Has anyone seen the original movies Zatoichi is based on ? There on sale on amazon and was wondering if they are any use. Still have Tokyo Story to watch which i dont know to much about, hope it blows me away like Seven Samurai. Speaking of Kurosawa has anyone seen Ikiru ? thinking of doing a blind purchase on it

I've seen Zatoichi The Outlaw ages ago, and I think a couple of others, but it was quite a while back. Good, but not overly brilliant. I've not seen Tokyo Story, or for that matter Ikuro, but as far as Kurosawa's films go, I've not seen a dud yet. So I'd say go for it, if you think it could be good.

Originally posted by sleepwalker
yes and the action scenes in both the matrix and crouching tiger hidden dragon are superb. how do u know he got somebody else to do all of the directing for him were you on set all the time ? is it not possible that he put his ideas through this person to choregraph to the actors since tarantino aint exactly trained in martial arts

You know, if you try and read my posts, instead of blurting out like a rabid 14 year old Tarantino fanboy, you might grasp what I'm actually saying. I never said he got someone to do ALL the directing for him, I said he got someone to direct the action sequences.

Now, the reason I brought this up, is in reply to Bazz's point on how well excetued and choreographed the fights in Kill Bill are. I'm pointing out that Tarantino simply hired Woo Ping Yuen, who's entire career has not just been to choreograph action scenes, but also to direct them. Something he's been doing since the 70's.

Understand now? So stop acting like a kid who's mother was just insulted.

Originally posted by sleepwalker
go back to your Vampires DVD your not worthy of Tarantinos films!

I think I must re-emphasis the "Rabid 14 Year Old Fanboy" statement on this point.

RAIN

This film was so much better than the allmost forgetable kill bill Tarantino is fantastic but kill bill (volume one at least ) did as much for me as an episode of footballers wives.Zatoichi f..kn rocked.It was just so much fun and never once took its self to serious tarintino just made a good movie but so did alot of people last year who didnt get have the praise he did for kill bill.Zatoichi had so many stand out bits but the two big fights in perticular the kurasawa in the rain fight was off the chart everything the last samurai should have been and more i mean cmon he ad his eyes closed in all the fights gawd this movie rocked

Bazz

Ok, ok, a lot of opinionated people pontificating about their supposed film knowledge and yapping about how a Jpanese samurai film blew an American samurai film away.. Boooring!!

Let's get this straight, Kill Bill, as we all know, comes in two parts, lets not judge it yet as we haven't seen Volume 2.

Zatiochi was a superb movie and extreamly clever.. End of story.

So what if Tarentino recycles used ideas to make his movies, who doesn't. All directors borrow ideas from somewhere, it's just tarentino does it with immence style and charisma..

netman

You got a problem with other people expressing their opinions?

Hate to break it to you, but if that's the case, this is definitely the wrong place to be

Obscure

What is "Takeshi's Castle"???

and is it on tv?

Karl Hungus

Right, well I finally saw Zatoichi the other day.

Spoilers are to follow, so if you've not seen the film, bugger off...

I honestly had to leave it a while to sink in before I bothered replying here. I wasn't sure how I felt about it at first, but I think it's finally settled now, so I can speak about it.

First of all, it wasn't what I expected at all! And I had a pretty good idea what it was about beforehand, and how music played a great part. But it was still quite different to what I had imagined in a lot of ways. I think that it wasn't so much a Zatoichi story, as it was about the Geishas, which I felt kinda uncomfortable with at first, but then I felt that it was quite a fantastic and tragic story.

I also loved the tap-dancing scene at the end!
A lot of people here seemed to either love it, or hate it, but I think it might be a recurring theme that I've seen in Dolls also. Not specifically a musical number like the tap-dancing scene, but if you've seen the film Dolls, it starts off with a traditional Japanese puppet show as a kind of narrative to the plot of the film. And I think that Kitano is showing us that it is indeed a preformance peice, and the way a lot of music throughout the film was made by the ambient sounds, and sound effects, like when he's walking down a road and there's a beat made by four men plowing. It's slightly similar to Lars Von Trier's "Dancer In The Dark" in that sense, except without any musical numbers. In fact, if I was to classify Zatoichi, I'd call it a musical without musical numbers. And while all this sums up together to say "Yes! This is all a preformance." it doesn't take away from the narrative, but gives it more emotion and impact. Almost like it includes the veiwer as an audience member in a live stage production, and I think that's the reason why the endings of both Dolls and Dancer In The Dark hit me like a tonne of bricks, and why I felt so unsettled by the story of the Geishas in Zatoichi. It's a staggering peice of work altogether.

Now, I'd just like to say now, any comparison with Kill Bill is completely unjustified and just an utter non-point altogether.

Originally posted by Bazz
So what if Tarentino recycles used ideas to make his movies, who doesn't. All directors borrow ideas from somewhere, it's just tarentino does it with immence style and charisma..

I'm sorry Bazz, but do you have any clue what your talking about? Because from that sentance it seems as though you've no really no idea of what myself, and a few others, are talking about on this subject.

You say recycling and borrowing ideas, and you come off as saying that no director can be in any way original. That's incredibly shallow, but moreso you just point out that you still cannot grasp just how much Tarantino rips-off. You seem to think that I'm just picking him up on a rather blatant reference?

Let me put it this way...
Here's a little story:

A gang tries to pull a heist, only the cops show up and have them surrounded, and there's a nice big shoot-out, and one of the gang-members is injured. They all make it back to an abbandoned ware-house, and they figure out that they've been set-up, and that one of their number is a cop! They point the finger at each other, and point guns around, while one member of the gang is looking after the injured man, and sticking up for him. In the end it turns out that it was the guy who was shot in the stomach who was the cop all along!!! *GASP*

Does this sound familiar? Surely you must know it!

Why it is of course the 1987 Hong Kong thriller City On Fire starring Chow Yun Fat and Danny Lee!

Now, do you understand the sheer magnitude of Tarantino's plagiarism?

Bazz

Originally posted by AngelWhore
Right, well I finally saw Zatoichi the other day.

Spoilers are to follow, so if you've not seen the film, bugger off...

I honestly had to leave it a while to sink in before I bothered replying here. I wasn't sure how I felt about it at first, but I think it's finally settled now, so I can speak about it.

First of all, it wasn't what I expected at all! And I had a pretty good idea what it was about beforehand, and how music played a great part. But it was still quite different to what I had imagined in a lot of ways. I think that it wasn't so much a Zatoichi story, as it was about the Geishas, which I felt kinda uncomfortable with at first, but then I felt that it was quite a fantastic and tragic story.

I also loved the tap-dancing scene at the end!
A lot of people here seemed to either love it, or hate it, but I think it might be a recurring theme that I've seen in Dolls also. Not specifically a musical number like the tap-dancing scene, but if you've seen the film Dolls, it starts off with a traditional Japanese puppet show as a kind of narrative to the plot of the film. And I think that Kitano is showing us that it is indeed a preformance peice, and the way a lot of music throughout the film was made by the ambient sounds, and sound effects, like when he's walking down a road and there's a beat made by four men plowing. It's slightly similar to Lars Von Trier's "Dancer In The Dark" in that sense, except without any musical numbers. In fact, if I was to classify Zatoichi, I'd call it a musical without musical numbers. And while all this sums up together to say "Yes! This is all a preformance." it doesn't take away from the narrative, but gives it more emotion and impact. Almost like it includes the veiwer as an audience member in a live stage production, and I think that's the reason why the endings of both Dolls and Dancer In The Dark hit me like a tonne of bricks, and why I felt so unsettled by the story of the Geishas in Zatoichi. It's a staggering peice of work altogether.

Now, I'd just like to say now, any comparison with Kill Bill is completely unjustified and just an utter non-point altogether.




I'm sorry Bazz, but do you have any clue what your talking about? Because from that sentance it seems as though you've no really no idea of what myself, and a few others, are talking about on this subject.

You say recycling and borrowing ideas, and you come off as saying that no director can be in any way original. That's incredibly shallow, but moreso you just point out that you still cannot grasp just how much Tarantino rips-off. You seem to think that I'm just picking him up on a rather blatant reference?

Let me put it this way...
Here's a little story:

A gang tries to pull a heist, only the cops show up and have them surrounded, and there's a nice big shoot-out, and one of the gang-members is injured. They all make it back to an abbandoned ware-house, and they figure out that they've been set-up, and that one of their number is a cop! They point the finger at each other, and point guns around, while one member of the gang is looking after the injured man, and sticking up for him. In the end it turns out that it was the guy who was shot in the stomach who was the cop all along!!! *GASP*

Does this sound familiar? Surely you must know it!

Why it is of course the 1987 Hong Kong thriller City On Fire starring Chow Yun Fat and Danny Lee!

Now, do you understand the sheer magnitude of Tarantino's plagiarism?

Ohh, my, I'm soo sorry for questioning your quite vast and encyclopedic knowledge of Quentin Tarentino and his career.

One thing you need to know lady, is that I will take you to school..

I bought City On Fire on video six years ago you idiot, I know where he got his inspiration from. Don't tell me that directors don't reuse other filmmakers ideas..

Stealing is for hacks, borrowing is for the clever

No one claims that Reservoir Dogs is an "original" story.. So why are you referring to it??? Don't forget Au Revoir Les Enfants,

Ok, so you are telling me that Tarentino is not original???... Why don't you actually watch a Tarentino film and pay attention..

Boo-Hoo, Reservoir Dogs plot and story was borrowed from an Hong Kong film.. Big swing!!

It's not the story that Tarentino is lauded for, it's the characters he creates, the original dialogue. What writers use dialogue and develope character lingo like tarentino does?? Who?? Who??.. NO ONE. That's who!
He has had a bigger influence on budding filmmakers AND established filmmakers than any other filmmaker over the last ten years.

It's not merely a "heist" movie it's about a botched robbery and its aftermath, colourfully written in vulgar ganster vernacular and well played by a terrific cast. A TERRIFIC cast..

It's the subliminal intricacies that he uses throughout his films. Nothing is random. Everything is meticulously though about. He knows he's borrowing ideas, that's what makes Quentin Tarentino so special. and to paraphrase the man himself, "I make movies for myself. I don't make movies for a faceless blob out there. I am my own audience"..

sleepwalker

You know, if you try and read my posts, instead of blurting out like a rabid 14 year old Tarantino fanboy, you might grasp what I'm actually saying. I never said he got someone to do ALL the directing for him, I said he got someone to direct the action sequences.

Now, the reason I brought this up, is in reply to Bazz's point on how well excetued and choreographed the fights in Kill Bill are. I'm pointing out that Tarantino simply hired Woo Ping Yuen, who's entire career has not just been to choreograph action scenes, but also to direct them. Something he's been doing since the 70's.

Understand now? So stop acting like a kid who's mother was just insulted.

fanboy ? far from it infact I'm one of the few who don't think much of Reservoir Dogs. I was simply stating the point that you are casually assuming something that you have no idea whether is true or not. I also never accused you of saying he got someone to do all the directing for him either, my point was in reference to the action scenes. So lighten up and shut the hell up talking down to me like I'm a child when you are infact the one who is wrong.

Zatoichi reminds me of when Battle Royale was first released. A whole lot of gushing praise with everybody refusing to point out any flaws. A good film but I'll take Kill Bill over it any day.

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by Bazz
I bought City On Fire on video six years ago you idiot, I know where he got his inspiration from. Don't tell me that directors don't reuse other filmmakers ideas..

Wow! An insult against my intelect because I didn't have knowledge of what vidoes you had bought 6 years ago? Well pardon me for participating in this debate without the prior 6-years or more stalking experience that was obviously required! I also didn't realise that random insults that had absolutely nothing to do with anything were also a requirement. So for good measure: "You Brainless Worm!"

Anyway, with the sarcasm aside, lets have a decent discussion about this.

Originally posted by Bazz
It's not the story that Tarentino is lauded for, it's the characters he creates, the original dialogue. What writers use dialogue and develope character lingo like tarentino does?? Who?? Who??.. NO ONE. That's who!
He has had a bigger influence on budding filmmakers AND established filmmakers than any other filmmaker over the last ten years.

It's not merely a "heist" movie it's about a botched robbery and its aftermath, colourfully written in vulgar ganster vernacular and well played by a terrific cast. A TERRIFIC cast..

It's the subliminal intricacies that he uses throughout his films. Nothing is random. Everything is meticulously though about. He knows he's borrowing ideas, that's what makes Quentin Tarentino so special. and to paraphrase the man himself, "I make movies for myself. I don't make movies for a faceless blob out there. I am my own audience"..

I've cut down your thread to what I find will make the most interesting discussion, so if there's anything that you felt is a pressing issue that I've overlooked, bring it up again.

Now, after some thought, I can see where you're coming from here, and while I do indeed disagree, you make some good points. But, I think it all comes down to how you define something, doesn't it?

How exactly does a person define "Borrowing an idea"? Well, I think the term is inherantly flawed, because the person "Borrowing" can't exactly give it back when they're finished with it, can they? It's a term I personally hate as much as the much overused "Re-imagining" tripe that Tim Burton spewed.

Or, I think more importantly, how does a person define an "Idea"?

If you define an entire plot, no matter how complex it may be, as a singular "Idea" then how exactly am I to argue with you? Was Charlie Kaufman's entire script for Adaptation just an "Idea"? If you honestly think so, then I simply cannot argue with you, no matter how wrong I think you are on the matter.

So I think I'll cite a precedent here...

In 1961, Akira Kurosawa made the film Yojimbo, and in 1964 Sergio Leone remade the film unofficially as A Fistfull Of Dollars. A court case insued, and Kurosawa won on breach of copyright, henceforth he would get royalties from the film, and this delayed it's release untill 1967.

Now, by your own standards judging by your views on Reservior Dogs as an original film, A Fistfull Of Dollars is an original film also, as it has original dialogue, and a different cast. Where a court of law judged that it was in breach of copyright.

Anyway, I don't say this as some kind of pathetic "Well, the LAW is on my side in this arguement!" type stab, but rather I'm bringing that up to measure against Tarantino's alleged originality, so that we can perhaps get some grounding in this. Or, rather what constitutes as "Borrowing an idea" and what is just outright theft?