Need thoughts on last few components

Adeptus Titanicus

Hi All,

I've been slowly narrowing down components for a new rig, doing a lot of reading and generally trying to find stuff out. I was wondering if some of you would have any opinions on the bits/options listed below. I've googled for hours and have narrowed from a ton of options to these, but am always open to suggestions!


PSU:
be quiet! PSU S1.3 450W Blackline Ultra Silent
or
Antec True-Blue 480W ATX PSU
Will be going for SATA drives, so would be nice to have the connectors native rather than adaptors. Like the idea of the be quiet as I can buy from an Irish company at a reasonable price.


CPU:
Just a FYI. I got tired of trying to decide so settled on this :dunno:
Intel Pentium 4 3.0 GHz PC800


Mobo:
Anyone got any opinions on these?

Asus 875P P4C800-E Deluxe (EUR208) - seems really popular.
or
MSI 875P NEO-FISR (EUR180)
or
MSI 865PE Neo2-PFISR (EUR133) - am leaning towards this. Seems good value/OCing capability.


Memory:
Corsair 1GB DDR XMS3200LLPT TwinX (2x512MB)
Corsair 1GB DDR XMS4000PT TwinX (2x512MB)
If I want to go for some decent overclocking, would the 3200LL do the job, or would I have more freedom with the 4000? TBH, this is new territory for me, so ANY advice is helpful. I've read some of the overclocking threads here and on overclockers, plus googled a few articles, but some old-fashioned straight-talking would be great.


CPU Cooling:
Zalman CNPS 7000A AlCu
Read lots of good things about this, but am worried about size and noise. Any suggestions considering possible overclocking? H2O cooling is not an option yet...


Case Cooling:
Vantec Stealth 80mm Silent Case Fan
Anyone using these? Any better suggestions? Will be going for a Chieftec Aluminium Dragon, so lots of places to stick fans. WIll start off with just a couple and see how it goes. Might splurge on a Coolermaster CoolDrive 4 to control the case and CPU fans sometime in the future, so I guess I can control nose if I need to.


As usual, any thoughts are very much appreciated.

Thanks!

AT

Sir Random

The P4C800-E Dlx is a great board, probably the most popular P4 o/c mobo.

For overclocking, good PC3500 should run 1:1 up to 230fsb (3.45Ghz). PC4000 would be more suitable for a 2.4/2.6/2.8 (because of the higher fsbs) and it has slower timings than PC3500

Woden

i have the antec 480w nice psu holds it rails real well when overclocked and when under load, i do have a s-ata drive though so it has the adaptor

not a pentium user but have heard a lot of people use that asus board and a good few use the abit high end equivalent also i think.

that 3200LL memory is rated at something like 2-3-2-6 @ 200mhz however the chips on that memory are used on corsairs pc3500 memory which does 2-3-3-7 @ 217 so what i'm saying is that the 3200LL will probably do 217 no bother and then a bit more i reckon. however if you plan on getting a decent overclocking higher specced memory would be good perhaps something like ocz 3700 stuff check out there memory at www.shop4memory.ie

i have two vantec stealth in my rig they seem quiet enough but i don't care much about the noise, i have to antec 80mm case fans also and my cpu cooler up full blast so the stealths don't make much difference. there are alternatives though which are may be better i think, check out sharkoons range of quiet fans

subway_ie

Originally posted by Adeptus
Mobo:
Anyone got any opinions on these?

Asus 875P P4C800-E Deluxe (EUR208) - seems really popular.
[/B]

If you buy from JES-Computer.de, you can get the P4C800-E Deluxe for €191.90, including GLS delivery, they also do the P4C800 Deluxe for €175.70 inc postage - i dont know if theres a huge difference between the two. But JES seem to be cheaper than most places for nearly everything, if you were to buy alot of the parts from them, you could save a tidy sum.

Adeptus Titanicus

Originally posted by Sir Random
For overclocking, good PC3500 should run 1:1 up to 230fsb (3.45Ghz). PC4000 would be more suitable for a 2.4/2.6/2.8 (because of the higher fsbs) and it has slower timings than PC3500

Please forgive my ignorance here, I'm trying to get my head around this memory timing thing. Have been trawling the web for some simple articles/explanations.

So, does this basically mean that while something like PC4000 can probably cope with higher FSB speeds, that the higher latency values mean you don't get the performace increase you might expect?
Is it a case where a rating of PC3500 is a happy middle ground allowing reasonable FSB speeds with more aggresive memory timing? Or am I talking sh1te?

Thanks

Adeptus Titanicus

Originally posted by Dataisgod
... however if you plan on getting a decent overclocking higher specced memory would be good perhaps something like ocz 3700 stuff check out there memory at www.shop4memory.com

i have two vantec stealth in my rig they seem quiet enough but i don't care much about the noise, i have to antec 80mm case fans also and my cpu cooler up full blast so the stealths don't make much difference. there are alternatives though which are may be better i think, check out sharkoons range of quiet fans

Yeah, the prices look pretty reasonable on shop4memory. As per my previous post though, I'm not 100% sure what the timings really mean. I know(!) that lower latencies should be good, and generally why, but need to understand when they might not make much of a difference. If you know what I mean?

Re the fans, I'd really like to have a quiet rig as the machine will most likely be in the living room, although I know if I do star pushing the rig a bit that I'll have to be a bit more proactive with the cooling. I think adding the Coolermaster fan controller/temp monitor later will help a bit there, so I suppose I would be more concerned about the CPU cooling.

Many thanks,

AT

Woden

i don't know much about timings either cept for the fact that typically the lower the better. i think that in nearly all cases that increase in performance from upping the fsb outweighs the decrease from going to higher timings

check out the memory section of www.anandtech.com for some good reviews on recent memories that are applicable to p4 platforms

data

po0k

Get Papst fans.
They are teh win.
If they'e a bit noisy, volt mod them to 7 or 9V.

They are quality quality fans.
I woudn't really consier anything else.

WRT mem timings, if your cpu can scale up with the PC4000 memory, go for it.
Timings make sod-all difference compared to extra memory bandwidth in the majority of applicaionts and games.
Quake3 is pretty much the only game I know of that really stresses mem bandwidth and timings, and even then going from high to lower only gives a few FPS difference, which is nothing if you can squeeze a few more Megbytes/sec and Mhz out of the memory and CPU respectively.

And regardelss, always run in 1:1 ratio of memory clock to FSB clock, otherwise the faster of the two will just go into wait_states which effectively negates the benefit.

Anyone know where I could track down a supplier for Fortran PSUs?

Adeptus Titanicus

Originally posted by SyxPak
WRT mem timings, if your cpu can scale up with the PC4000 memory, go for it.
Timings make sod-all difference compared to extra memory bandwidth in the majority of applicaionts and games.

Yeah, that's a good point. According to one article at Anandtech (thanks Data, I should have gone there before posting) the P4 I intend going for (3.0C) may not be able to get up to that speed (as I understand it).

Quote from article
Keep in mind that your CPU must be capable of running at a raw 250FSB or 1000FSB to run your memory at DDR500. The higher-speed Pentium 4 CPUs (the 2.8C, 3.0C, or 3.2C) cannot usually reach this bus speed and you will likely be running your memory at less than DDR500 speed. Many 2.4C and 2.6C CPUs that we have tested can run at DDR500. The new DDR500 memory is an excellent match for these processors.

As a result, I may well go for the OCZ EL DDR PC3700 Dual Channel Gold Revision 2 or the Corsair 1GB DDR XMS3700PT. Although knowing me I'll probably read for another week before making a decision :rolleyes: !

Does this make any sense? I'll goand have a goo for more article about OCing the P4 3.0C

Thanks for the feedback Guys!

Sir Random

Originally posted by Adeptus
Please forgive my ignorance here, I'm trying to get my head around this memory timing thing. Have been trawling the web for some simple articles/explanations.

So, does this basically mean that while something like PC4000 can probably cope with higher FSB speeds, that the higher latency values mean you don't get the performace increase you might expect?
Is it a case where a rating of PC3500 is a happy middle ground allowing reasonable FSB speeds with more aggresive memory timing? Or am I talking sh1te?

Thanks

Yes, you're bang on.
Ideally, you'd find the best stable overclock for your cpu and then choose the ram to suit. Even then, you'd have to gamble to get the best performance possible. Good ram should run about 20% faster than it's rated speed without slackening the timings.

The main timing is Cas Latency which is usually 2, 2.5 or 3.
You can get PC3500 at CL2 (2,3,2,5) while PC3700 is usually CL2.5 (2.5,3,3,7)

Ram varies, so it's up to you. Either play safe with PC3700 or gamble for tighter timings with PC3200/3500.

NB:
There's NO loss of bandwith unless you're using a divider (5:4, 3:2).
PC4000@450Mhz is the same as PC3200@450Mhz but the PC3200's timings make it faster.
If you're PC3500 can't do 450Mhz and you're forced to use 5:4 (running the ram at 360Mhz), then PC3700/PC4000 would be better.

Basically, you want the lowest rated ram that will match your overclock 1:1

For example, my PC3500 (rated 433Mhz) does 472Mhz 1:1 2,3,2,5 no problem.

BH5 rated at 400Mhz can do 500Mhz at 2,2,2,5 (with 3v+ vdimm) while other 400Mhz ram flakes out at just 405Mhz. It's always a gamble

Woden

Originally posted by Adeptus

I'll goand have a goo for more article about OCing the P4 3.0C

good overclocking guide imo, its for an athlon system but just adapt as necessary

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138583&highlight=overclocking

Adeptus Titanicus

Originally posted by Dataisgod
good overclocking guide imo, its for an athlon system but just adapt as necessary

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138583&highlight=overclocking

Yeah, I picked that up from your post on the overclocking thread on HW Tweaking/Modding. That's what started me thinking about the whole thing. There's a lot to absorb !

From Sir Randoms last post I think I'll have to assess the "OverClockability" of the P4 3.0C and go from there.

Originally posted by Sir Random
It's always a gamble

Yep, I guess that's what makes it interesting...

Sir Random

The Mushkin PC3200 BH6 seems to be good, this guy has his at 500Mhz 2,2,2,11:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17198180

Woden

aye a lot to absorb but you pentium is multi locked so just up the fsb in a 1:1 ratio until it is unstable, then up the ddr voltage and go again then up the vcore, keep an eye on the temps and check stability with prime 95. with prime 95 for you final overclock you will be looking for say 12hour stability. but if you just wanna test a new setting to find you limit just give it a half hour and if its ok give it a bit more

in a nutshell

Venom

Originally posted by Adeptus


PSU:
be quiet! PSU S1.3 450W Blackline Ultra Silent
or
Antec True-Blue 480W ATX PSU
Will be going for SATA drives, so would be nice to have the connectors native rather than adaptors. Like the idea of the be quiet as I can buy from an Irish company at a reasonable price.


CPU:
Just a FYI. I got tired of trying to decide so settled on this :dunno:
Intel Pentium 4 3.0 GHz PC800


Mobo:
Anyone got any opinions on these?

Asus 875P P4C800-E Deluxe (EUR208) - seems really popular.
or
MSI 875P NEO-FISR (EUR180)
or
MSI 865PE Neo2-PFISR (EUR133) - am leaning towards this. Seems good value/OCing capability.


Memory:
Corsair 1GB DDR XMS3200LLPT TwinX (2x512MB)
Corsair 1GB DDR XMS4000PT TwinX (2x512MB)
If I want to go for some decent overclocking, would the 3200LL do the job, or would I have more freedom with the 4000? TBH, this is new territory for me, so ANY advice is helpful. I've read some of the overclocking threads here and on overclockers, plus googled a few articles, but some old-fashioned straight-talking would be great.


CPU Cooling:
Zalman CNPS 7000A AlCu
Read lots of good things about this, but am worried about size and noise. Any suggestions considering possible overclocking? H2O cooling is not an option yet...


Case Cooling:
Vantec Stealth 80mm Silent Case Fan
Anyone using these? Any better suggestions? Will be going for a Chieftec Aluminium Dragon, so lots of places to stick fans. WIll start off with just a couple and see how it goes. Might splurge on a Coolermaster CoolDrive 4 to control the case and CPU fans sometime in the future, so I guess I can control nose if I need to.

AT

The Antec PSU's are the best out there, cant praise them enough.

Good call on CPU Iv never had any problems with an INTEL chip

Have a think about a DFI board, there are the best for overclocking due to being stable as hell.

Zalman fans are great and soundless.

If your looking for quite case fans, check out the coolermaster ones, can also be gotten in neon blue to match the blue glow from the psu

Adeptus Titanicus

ok, I've just ordered the PSU and fans etc.

Went for the be quiet! S1.3 450W Colorline Ultra Silent PSU from HiTide. 99 Euro, so not a bad deal. Still get the blue lights!

I checked out some more fans and went for a couple of Sharkoon Ultra Silent Case Fans (80mm), and the Zalman CNPS 7000A AlCu. 39 Euro, best price I found so pretty happy . Of course, I didn't realise they don't take CreditCards which wouldn't bother except for this postal strike (was gonna post a cheque) so we'll see what happens.

Also stuck in a (largish) order to overclock.co.uk for a new case, Vid Card, fan grilles and stuff. I popped a couple of fan filters into the mix. Wasn't sure if this is a good idea. Would they hinder air flow? I thought if I had a **** load of quiet fans through the filters I'd maintain adequate airflow, but we'll see. :dunno:

Delivery was only £18, so better than I expected. Fingers crossed things don't get screwed up...

Just need to finally fix on the Mobo and memory... Will check out the DFI

Thanks!

Woden

what's your graphic card going to be? let us know how it benchmarks and overclocks

good luck

data

Adeptus Titanicus

After much agonising, I stumped up for an Asus ATI Radeon 9800XT/TVD 256Mb. I don't know if this was a smart move (cost-wise), but it has some nice features. The main stumbling block was the cost (duhhh). But overclock.co.uk had by far the best price, a good 50 E less than Komplett and a staggering 190 E less than Elara!

Of course that's me trying to justify it to myself..

Ah sod it! I'm lookin' forward to putting it through its paces.

Will certainly post up some figures when I get it all together. Will be a few weeks though, HiTide are waiting on my PSU.

Thanks for all the advice!

Woden

tbh i don't think its a smart move cost wise to update your graphics card to that imo. i know people say something is always around the corner but new graphics cores are just around the corner

that asus is 500 euro on komplett yes? if you have that much money to spend and want the latest and greatest i urge you to wait a month or so and get something based on nvidia's or ati's new core and wait it out with what ever you have now

if that doesn't float your both get the sapphire lite retail 9800 pro from komplett and overclock it to an XT fair enough you won't have 256mb but you don't need it and in about a years time or so when that card having difficulty with something you'll still have to €250 and you'll probably get a cracking card for that price then

once again don't do it please think of the children

data

edit: sample benchmark, 256 9800xt, stock 128mb 9800 pro, overclocked 128mb 9800 pro to ~XT frequencies

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-nvidia-roundup_13.html

Creamy Goodness

yeh don't forget the ABIT IC7-G MAX 2 or 3

Adeptus Titanicus

Originally posted by Dataisgod

once again don't do it please think of the children

Yeah, I know what you mean. I was originally going to go for the Asus 9600XT. This is for a completely new rig, so it'd be good to get something now, although admittedly I'm not in a huge rush.

I'll certainly think about the OC'ed 9800 Pro option. I could always sell it off when the new cores come around. How long will that be though? I read May for the new NV cards? I'd imagine they'd cost a bit.

Dammit. lol. I'm sure I can cancel it off that order... I knew I shouldn't have hit that Confirm Order button!

Woden

the new nvidia core may launch on the 13th april apparently and the new ati core with in the next two months.

yeah you could sell of the 9800pro when the new one comes along if you have the case to spare. you can get the 9800 pro even cheaper then komplett if you go with jes computers as someone mentioned i think.

if you sell it elsewhere then boards you'll make most of your money back . i reckon here you get about 150-175 for it as some one is selling a 9700non pro for about 135 i think.

with regard to the price of the next new cards i always though the latest and greatest graphics cards seem to top out around 500-600 max which is what the current price of some of the XT's are, the new card would have come in at that price i reckon though i could be wrong and they should push the price of the XT down i think

Sir Random

Yeah, skip the 9800XT. The NV40 is supposed to be 2.5 times faster so get a cheap 9800pro for now (or even a 2nd hand ti4200)

Adeptus Titanicus

OK, sent a mail to overclock to ask them to change the Asus 9800XT for the Sapphire 9800 Pro. They have the Sapphire for 238 euro (10 less than komplett, 10 more than Jes). I'll follow up with a phone call in the am. Hope they don't screw me around...

Thanks for saving me from my own stupidity guys. Or more importantly, saving my wallet from my stupidity!

NV40 is supposed to be 2.5 times faster? Wow!

Update:
overclock didn't reply to my mail, so I tried for ages to ring them this morning. Eventually got through after lunch, and the guy changed my order there and then, no problems (had a bit of a laugh too). 20 mins later it was packed and is apparently on its way. Pretty good service I have to say, so far.

Lets just see how the delivery and refund goes...

Adeptus Titanicus

Wow...

Brief history...

Placed an order with www.overclock.co.uk on Sunday Night.

Called them on Monday c. 2pm (took a while to get through) to ammend the order.

By 1:15am Tuesday morning it was in Ballsbridge.

Delivered to me Tuesday at 10:30.

Now that's service! UK side handled bu Business Post UK and the Irish side by Nightline. £18 deliver for a case and a smaller box.

So now I have the case, the 9800Pro and a bunch of fans....

BloodBath

Have you ordered your mobo yet? I highly recomend the Abit Ic7 Max 3 if your willing to go with the high end ones. It get's the highest scores in benchmarks although it's only marginal over the Asus. It looks a hell of a lot better though. The otis cooling system helps disapate some of the heat and it has a nice northbrige fan.

It's an excellent overclocker too. You won't reach the fsb limits you would with the DFI Lanparty but you don't have to. It's stable up to about 260-270 fsb. You won't be going any hogher than that.

Not to mention 6 s-ata ports. It's the best Pentium mobo you can get at the moment.


BloodBath

Adeptus Titanicus

Yeh, nice board allright. I looked at this a while ago and it seemed to have most everything I needed. My main concern was the noise as I read the OTES fan was pretty loud, plus, I had worries about strapping a Zalman 7000a in beside it.

It takes an amazing amount of drives! 6 S-ATA + 4 IDE?

I also like the Firewire header as I want to bring some of these to the front of my case.

Having said all that, the P4C800-E Dlx has pretty much the same as regards the types of connections i need, plus is a little more passive about the cooling. So, I have been aiming at the Asus, but haven;t ordered yet (still need to pick some other small bits out before ordering).

How do you find the noise and space for large cooling fans?

BloodBath

Well the otis makes very little noise in my opinion. It's pretty quiet. Space wise the northbridge is pretty close to the retention clip so I don't know if you will have trouble with that heatsink or not.

I got the thermalright sp-94. Excellent P4 heatsink and very stable for travelling. You have to remove the retention clip and screw it directly into the mobo. It uses the retention clip holes. So you don't have half a kg hanging outta your processor that can cause damage if your moving your pc around.

Takes fans from 70-92mm. So you could get a quiet 92mm fan if you want a quiet machine or something meatier and noisier if you want to do a big overclock.


BloodBath

Adeptus Titanicus

Thanks everybody for the feedback and tips. You've all been a great help in pointing me to some good products.

I've settled on the P4C800-E Deluxe and expect it tomorrow along with the P4. I'll still be waiting on my PSU though, so no build this weekend...