St Patrick

Vader

Why is 17 march St Pads day.

It would make sense if it was the day he died; he was a spoilsport so obviously we have giant piss ups to piss him off

GuanYin

Are you trolling again?

It was the day he is believed to have died apparently March 17 460AD I believe.

I'm sure like most saints feast days it has or had some previous significance in pagan culture. Not sure what though, probably March 20, which is the March equinox.

JustHalf

Christians are spoilsports? That's news to me.

Vader, watch it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by syke
I'm sure like most saints feast days it has or had some previous significance in pagan culture. Not sure what though, probably March 20, which is the March equinox.

Probably unrelated, but the Roman festival of Bacchus was once celebrated on March 17th.

Vader

it just occured to me that Patrick, being an early christian, would have promoted a life of pennance and abstenance and most likely a monastic and isolated life.

Is it not really weird that we celebrate him by drink, parties agus le leitheid.
Its a perfect example of things being distorted over time!!

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Vader
it just occured to me that Patrick, being an early christian, would have promoted a life of pennance and abstenance and most likely a monastic and isolated life.

Perhaps, perhaps not. After all, Patrick is not derived from a name, but from a title.

Vader

Im not following you

Patrick wasnt his name, it was one he took or one given to him, something like that??

Also there were two Patricks that came to Ireland were there not, this whole ST Pad thing looks like a cut and paste job from a lot of sources.

Climbing Croke Patrick for example is a usurption of a celtic festival (although dont you do that on a different day??)

Saint Patricks appesarence in Clann Lir is rediculous, although I suppose it might be a bit of a reward for the monks who went to the bother of writing down all the Irish tales.

But what started me on this whole thread was that St Pad apparently ruined some yearly festival at Tara or something, and that festival included drinking, music, partying and just basic craic. Now my source was some guy I met in a pub and Ill admit Im not up to date on the subject so I came here.

What are the facts/legends/stories surrounding St Pads and is there any reason why he should be celebrated by a booze up?

How do ther countries celebrate their national saints?

Surly March 17th should be a solem day of repentance?

GuanYin

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Probably unrelated, but the Roman festival of Bacchus was once celebrated on March 17th.

Could be, I think Ireland had a predominantly Pagan society pre-christianity though which is why I'd be inclined towards the equinox, that said, I'd be more than skeptical about how many of the different old-religion holidays and christian ones fall in or around the same time.

In effect we are still celebrating mostly pagan festival, we have just attributed them, and sometimes their myths to christian figures.

Originally posted by Vader
What are the facts/legends/stories surrounding St Pads and is there any reason why he should be celebrated by a booze up?


Surly March 17th should be a solem day of repentance?

Most Pagan traditions were marked with feasts and piss ups. One reason that christian feast days mirror pagan ones is due to PR. It would have been much harder to convert Pagans to Christianity if all thier feast days and festivities were stripped form them. Festivals that had been celebrated thought their family history.


As I tried to explain to you once before, such celebrations and festivals, have, for the the general populace, fallen out of the realms of religious marking and into traditional iconism. This is a psychological trend and although it has effected Ireland far slower than many other western countries (the decline from religious values has, on the whole, been slower here), it is still in effect. Easter and Christmas are the only festivities left with any real religious significance to the population and even then I would argue that "Hallmark" would be neck and neck with God and Jesus for dominance at these events.

Humans, are by and large, habitual, if we had a nuclear fall out and reverted back to a holocost society ala mad max with no real recollection of history, I would be fairly sure we would still celebrate christmas and easter long after the christian significance of these dates had passed from memory.

If you want to argue that this doesn'ttake away the fact they are christian holidays, then I would say by your own argument they are actually Pagan holidays.

Human minds work in funny ways.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Vader
Patrick wasnt his name, it was one he took or one given to him, something like that??

Patrick is derived from patricius - a patrician or noble. The title may have been given to him as a term of respect, but this is arguable as it would probably not have been in use outside of what was left of the Empire.

Originally posted by syke
In effect we are still celebrating mostly pagan festival, we have just attributed them, and sometimes their myths to christian figures.

Demonization is another good example of this. Many popular demons of Judea-Christian-Islamic tradition are derived from former pagan gods - Astaroth was originally the Sumero-Babylonian goddess Ishtar and the Egyptian god Set has often been attributed as the source for Satan.

In some cases, demons were created out of words alone, such as Mammon (originally simply the word for ‘money’ in Asyrian) and Baal (which was the Canaanite word for ‘master’ or ‘lord’ and not a god as such).

It must be noted that in many cases, such adoptions were not Christian, but carried out originally in Judaism.

GuanYin

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Patrick is derived from patricius - a patrician or noble. The title may have been given to him as a term of respect, but this is arguable as it would probably not have been in use outside of what was left of the Empire.

Oddly enough I was looking at a book of childrens names today (I know someone expecting) and the name Patrick and its celtic equivilants are thought to have come into common use as a name as short a time as 3-4 hundred years ago.

Dun

Before the anglicisation of Ireland, the people had too much reverence for saints' names to use them for their children. Kinda like nobody would (normally) call their children Jesus in English-speaking countries, whereas Spanish-speaking countries would have no problem doing so. A lot of the traditional Irish names, are relatively recent - the Michaels, Patricks, Bridgets, Marys, Josephs and James' and so on - and meant the extinction of many Irish first names.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Christians are spoilsports? That's news to me.

i recently heard irish pagans worshipped their goddess of love (apphrodite possibly) by f*cking in fields at night.... christians have us praying in churches, hmmm i can kinda see the original point!

and im not pretty enough to be sacrificed anyway

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Bottle_of_Smoke
i recently heard irish pagans worshipped their goddess of love (apphrodite possibly) by f*cking in fields at night.... christians have us praying in churches, hmmm i can kinda see the original point!

So why would Irish pagans worship a Greek goddess?

You gotta love these adolescent fantasies... :rolleyes:

Bottle_of_Smoke

hehe yeah sorry was playing age of mythology just before replying there, musta been some other god, just jokin anyway i m not a pagan or anything like that, dont have enough time to worry about what'l happening to me when i die!