Don't post until further notice

ixoy

So An Post don't want anyone in Dublin City to post a letter while they sort out their stupid internal problems. Any idea on the project effect this will have on business? Would this include deliveries from web sites which, I thought, all went through An Post even if they're on a courier delivery?

To cripple a country's postal system just days after threatening to crush its transport system - is the country falling even further apart due to government behemoth's being unable to adapt to changing conditions?

nahdoic

Where did you hear that?

There's no news about it on their website.

http://www.anpost.ie/

ixoy

It was said on
RTE News:

The company is now asking people in Dublin City and County not to post mail until further notice.

The same advice is being given to customers in Bray, Greystones and Wicklow Town; Carrickmacross and Castleblaney in Co Monaghan, Drogheda and Dundalk in Co Louth; Kells and Navan in Co Meath and Tuam in Co Galway. The advice is not to post from or to these areas until further notice.

Complete farce! How dare they operate like this and screw up the system for everyone else.

GerardKeating

Originally posted by ixoy
So An Post don't want anyone in Dublin City to post a letter

Not highlighted, but the Dublin Mails centre handles all incoming and outgoing international mail...

So we cut off (postally) from the rest of the world.

daveg

Welcome to my world. We have been effected by "unnofficial" action for the last few months. Our sorting office is Tuam. Our post (all of it) is now delayed, on adverage, 2/3 weeks. Seems the situation is as follows.... Tuam postal workers are complaing that there work enviroment breaks several health and safety rules and as such the employees have made some waves. I understand The distribution of post to Tuam has been purposly delayed (from Athlone) which is causing the disruption. Why would they do that you ask? To piss off the public. An post have spent a large amount of revenue on aqdvertising claiming there is a strike in Tuam which is causing the disruption. What a pack of cúnts.

daveg

Originally posted by nahdoic
Where did you hear that?

There's no news about it on their website.

http://www.anpost.ie/

http://www.anpost.ie/corporate/mail_dispute.html

Does anyone else feel this is another fine example of the lack of competition in Ireland? Do Royal mail in the UK have competition? I'm sure they do. Scrap that actually.... this would never happen in the UK.... only in Ireland :rolleyes:

Specky

As far as I am aware there is still only one post office in the UK, there have been postal strikes there in the past on many occasions. The difference is perhaps that because they are a much larger organisation you can't close down the nation's communications just by closing one office which is what seems to have happened in this case.

However, in the UK the unions don't have the stranglehold that Irish unions have over the monopolies.

What I really hate is the "us and them" attitude of unions in Ireland. Like the "workers" and the "management" are this adversarial pair of entities constantly at war with one another.

As if we people in business didn't have enough problems trying to get paid on time without giving our customers yet another excuse to not put the cheque in the post.:mad:

dahamsta

Originally posted by daveg
Do Royal mail in the UK have competition? I'm sure they do. Scrap that actually.... this would never happen in the UK.... only in Ireland :rolleyes:

Was this sarcasm? Didn't Royal Mail just have a massively disruptive strike action?

BuffyBot

Was this sarcasm? Didn't Royal Mail just have a massively disruptive strike action?

Yes, last year - and it went on for quite some time, with a lot of people were without mail for ages.

BigEejit

I was listening to the radio and one of those CWU fuckers was on saying that the reason for the strike basically is that An Post implement working practice changes without telling the union and they didnt like it. What the changes are I dont know, but knowing the CWU its something small

Specky

What the changes are I dont know, but knowing the CWU its something small

This is what's crippling our competitiveness and it'll be the people in the unions that will be the first to complain when all the low paid unskilled/semiskilled jobs disappear off to Hungary.

You want me to do something? I want money for it. So it's less work than I used to do? So what...it's different so I want paying for it.

This nonsense about not being consulted is really getting on my tits.

An Post are losing money left right and centre (they claim...but that's another thread) so they need to change one way or another otherwise they'll go bankrupt and no-one will get paid (ok...so the government will have to step in if it gets that far but that's not really the point). They have to do something and in my view it's the workers and the way they work that is losing them money. Innefficiencies and wastage contribute to the company's lack of profitability.

You obviously can't drive people like slaves but you also can't ask people engrained in a traditional set of working practices to improve on their own. I dispair when I hear these 1970s style shop steward types coming on Morning Ireland and pratling on about this that and the other. Just bloody well get on with your jobs you lazy shower of gob****es!!!


ooooo feel much better now I've got that out of my system....:D

ixoy

Originally posted by Specky
You obviously can't drive people like slaves but you also can't ask people engrained in a traditional set of working practices to improve on their own. I dispair when I hear these 1970s style shop steward types coming on Morning Ireland and pratling on about this that and the other. Just bloody well get on with your jobs you lazy shower of gob****es!!!

Hey you're in my cabinet too when I rise to power! You can be in charge of union negotations

In this case, it's An Post bringing in a - very expensive - new sorting system that will, in the long term, cut down costs in their mail centres. The workers claim that they shouldn't have to use this sytem given that they haven't received their benchmarking payment (to which I say fcuk off - I've not had a pay increase in years). The new system would have cut down postage times - instead our postage time has shot to infinity.

This is what happens in a monopoly (and Royal Mail isn't a whole lot better either). I don't think it will affect parcel deliveries (for those of us doing online ordering) but it's sickening again that we're being held, as a country, to the demands of workers who refuse to adapt to the times. FFS, An Post is making a loss. They HAVE to cut costs. They have NO choice. Deal with reality instead of your insane unworkable demands.

Specky

Yes, calls to mind the situation with the Gardai. Pulse computer system...I ain't touchin' that...it be witchcraft.

Benchmarking???? FFS!!!

OK, you're crap. You should get paid bugger all. Now are you happy?? Get on with your work!!

I formally accept your offer of a position in trade union negotiations, I am clearly the right man for the job.

daveg

Originally posted by dahamsta
Was this sarcasm? Didn't Royal Mail just have a massively disruptive strike action?

em yes. Yes it was

dahamsta

Heh. Never been very good with recognising sarcasm in others. You'd think I'd be better at it, eh?

daveg

Originally posted by dahamsta
Heh. Never been very good with recognising sarcasm in others. You'd think I'd be better at it, eh?

LoL Adam. I'm afraid I didn't know there was a strike in the UK. So your origional assessment was correct. I wasn't being sartcastic..... just stupid.

pork99

Let's face it calling this carry-on the "Partnership for Prosperity and Fairness" is an abuse of the English language reminiscent of the way Idid Amin called his secret police the "Public Safety Unit", its worthy of Orwellian Newspeak.

The only consolation is that everytime the postal services have gone on strike they have lost business to faxes, email, SMS, private couriers and that lost business never comes back after a strike. The only thing we'll "miss" here is bill delivery and as bill payment is moving online....

Victor

Originally posted by ixoy
Would this include deliveries from web sites which, I thought, all went through An Post even if they're on a courier delivery?

Royal Mail and USPS use GLS, who appear much worse than An Post. DHL, UPS and the others us mostly thier own systems.

jill_valentine

I was under the impression that another aspect to the dispute is that the sorting machine will cut the number of staff necessary for the same amount of mail. Which might make a little more sense. Any word on when it might end? This is really getting to me....I haven't been paid.:mad:

BigEejit

nope ... the big change here is that it will cut overtime ... the indo yesterday was saying by as much as 30% for a lot of them ... THATS why they dont want the new machine...

(PS I know the indo is satans paper, but it was in work)

jill_valentine

Sorry, I just saw your sig and snorked tea out my nose. I have to use that joke sometime...:D

pork99

Originally posted by jill_valentine
I was under the impression that another aspect to the dispute is that the sorting machine will cut the number of staff necessary for the same amount of mail. Which might make a little more sense.

So a number of postal workers are effectivly redundant because of a change in market conditions?

The same thing happened to me last year - I was told I was being made redundant because of a change in market conditions. This was a bit of a euphemism - basically the company was losing money by the van-load (just like An Post) and had to lay off most of its staff.

Like the majority of people in this situation I just had to pack up and leave. No recourse to industrial action, no means to blackmail the rest of society to keep paying me for a now useless job. Just had to take it on the chin. Nobody owes you a living.

Sparks

Originally posted by pork99
Nobody owes you a living.

Entirely correct - but it works both ways, in that if you can fight the decision, you can't be called wrong for doing so (at least not with any degree of accuracy). Remember that these workers stand to lose a lot (overtime and half their basic pay rate) if they agree to the terms of the management's edict - and noone's going to pay their morgages for them.

Besides, to say management haven't handled this well is an understatement - even the Business Post was today seriously considering the proposal that it was a cynical tactic on management's part, that they deliberately provoked the dispute.

BuffyBot

I see signs in UK Post Office branches are now advising people not to post to Ireland

pork99

Originally posted by Sparks
Remember that these workers stand to lose a lot (overtime and half their basic pay rate) if they agree to the terms of the management's edict - and noone's going to pay their morgages for them.

Shame about them

Why should some people's jobs be protected at the expense of others?

It seems to me that here is a group of privileged workers with uparalelled job security for example who will do whatever to protect those privileges.

Since I was made redundant I just have to work freelance for whatever the market pays me and it is considerably less than I was used to. My last payday was in January. I've had to drop out of the pension scheme I was in. I could go on. We all have our hard luck stories. I'm sure the postal workers give a sh|t about my problems. :rolleyes:

I recently read "The Blank Slate" by Stephen Pinker. He has an interesting section on psychology and economics (pp233-240 in the Penguin paperback edition).

He says that there are 4 basic patterns for economic transactions:

1 Communal Sharing

2 Authority Ranking

3 Equality Matching

4 Market Pricing

Any advanced economy is based on Market Pricing, cannot function without it. However our intuitive concept of our economic value is based on Equality Matching. THe idea that any commodity - in this case our labour - has an intrinsic value, i.e. I am worth E60,000 a year no matter what. Actually not the case - you are worth whatever the market prices you at. Market pricing is opaque, counter-intuitive & impersonal. It does not care whether you have a mortgage.

ixoy

Originally posted by pork99
Like the majority of people in this situation I just had to pack up and leave. No recourse to industrial action, no means to blackmail the rest of society to keep paying me for a now useless job. Just had to take it on the chin. Nobody owes you a living.

Exactly. We had large stuff cuts awhile back. Did we grind the country to a halt to prevent it? Of course not - it was not even an option because there is no union here, like in most private organisations. We've also had a pay freeze which, given inflation, is effectively a pay cut. And if we did have a union, it'd be hardly the same threat as An Post because we have competitors. In a non-monopoly situation, the crisis would be resolved by both sides a lot quicker because they would just lose out to their rivals. In this case, everyone loses and we're all left to suffer.

jill_valentine

I don't see why they can't just have a go-slow rather than an all out strike. That way they could make their point. And I could still get my mail and maybe get paid this month...:mad:

pork99

Originally posted by ixoy
Exactly. We had large stuff cuts awhile back. Did we grind the country to a halt to prevent it? Of course not - it was not even an option because there is no union here, like in most private organisations. We've also had a pay freeze which, given inflation, is effectively a pay cut. And if we did have a union, it'd be hardly the same threat as An Post because we have competitors. In a non-monopoly situation, the crisis would be resolved by both sides a lot quicker because they would just lose out to their rivals. In this case, everyone loses and we're all left to suffer.

Amen brother

pork99

Originally posted by jill_valentine
I don't see why they can't just have a go-slow rather than an all out strike. That way they could make their point. nut I could still get my mail and maybe get piad this month...:mad:

Yes but their point is: "Pay us E30,000 a year for the rest of our lives, regardless of whether we are worth that or not, or we will f you over"

jill_valentine

I'd just like to apologise for the atrocious spelling in that last post. I haven't slept much lately.

Hmm...if they'd even started with a go-slow, that would have been better than an all out stoppage. I don't know enough about the actual working/paid conditions to judge whether or not the postal unions claims are unfounded...I just want my post dammit!

Victor

Originally posted by pork99
Why should some people's jobs be protected at the expense of others? It seems to me that here is a group of privileged workers with uparalelled job security for example who will do whatever to protect those privileges.

Actually lots of them were previously made redundant or put on short working hours, that will extend hugely and that is their argument.

ixoy

Great news! The CRWU is funding the staff who have been suspended. They account for approximately 6% of the staff of An Post only and it means that they can continue not to work in the sorting centres for weeks or even months, if needs be. Hurrah for An Post! (my source was the Irish Independent)

jill_valentine

Aw puddles!

parsi

Originally posted by ixoy


Great news! The CRWU is funding the staff who have been suspended. They account for approximately 6% of the staff of An Post only and it means that they can continue not to work in the sorting centres for weeks or even months, if needs be. Hurrah for An Post! (my source was the Irish Independent)

(Alert: rambly bits follow)

Strike pay is a part of Union Benefits - after all its what you pay your sub for. I think it should be remembered that without Unions many of our working rights would not have been granted. after all we see that non-Union houses often have a policy of extracting as much as they can from workers because they have no solid representation - its easy to tackle people one-by-one .

Surely the argument "I had to loose my job without any benefit or consultation" is not a valid argument against other workers struggling to ensure that their conditions are unilaterally changed...

"nobody owes you a living" - if one was in an organsiation that was going to let you go would you just say rught thanks or would you go to your union and try and better the situation ? If you have a Union you will try and better the situation and get what you can out of it - its human nature. It's whycompanies like Rynair don't want unions.

lets face it - those who are unionised think they are a benefit, those who aren't (or can't be) unionised think they are an anachronism whilst business thinks that having to pay people at all is a bad thing and why doesn't the State provide them with the publicly funded things they want and not the publicly funded things that benefit workers/ children/ marginalised society... (whilst still not taking taxes from business).

jill_valentine

I guess I can understand both sides of the arguement, and my leftish leanings are pulling me to start supporting the union...but I still just want my post...

Sparks

Originally posted by jill_valentine
I guess I can understand both sides of the arguement, and my leftish leanings are pulling me to start supporting the union...but I still just want my post...

Then you might want to talk to the An Post management, seeing as how this is pretty much their idea.

pork99

Originally posted by parsi
(Alert: rambly bits follow)
Surely the argument "I had to loose my job without any benefit or consultation" is not a valid argument against other workers struggling to ensure that their conditions are unilaterally changed...

So one rule for 30% of workers who are in unions and and have the privilege of working for monopolies and another rule for the 70% of workers whose employers MUST compete sucessfully in the market for them to stay in employment?

"nobody owes you a living" - if one was in an organsiation that was going to let you go would you just say rught thanks or would you go to your union and try and better the situation ? If you have a Union you will try and better the situation and get what you can out of it - its human nature. It's whycompanies like Rynair don't want unions.

For me there is a positive side. I've lost income but I have also gained freedom. I have promised myself to never again get stuck in the same position as I was in when in that job. If I can make a success of self-employment, I'm ultimately in a much stronger position.

Personally the only time I felt like joining a union was when I had to work under an incompetent, devious, c*ntfaced, sp*stic demon "project manager" in my previous job. It was purely to kick back at that individual. In a well run company there should be no need for unions. Politics has no place in a professional business environment. If people want a union something is wrong - managment are failing. And I admit there there seems to be a fair amount of management deviousness/incompetence in An Post

I really don't care whether CIE, Air Rianta or An Post are publicly or privately owned or whether they are heavily unionised or not. As long as I can get a bus, get post delivered, use the airport without being ripped off.

BuffyBot

In a well run company there should be no need for unions

I guess it depends on what you define on well run. A large company who sall remain nameless, I'm sure consider themselves to be well run, but if there was ever a case for unionisation it would be it.

thetis

This is one that I hate, on the one hand I tend toward the pink side of red politically. I think unions are a good idea, if only (and not only) to protect and promote issues which are not intrinsic to the company as a whole. Health and safety being a huge one. On the other hand, the An Post workers signed a contract when they started working which clearly defined their salaries and working hours. Overtime is a perk, it is NOT part of the contract. I completely disagree with those who strike because they'll lose "their" overtime. It's not theirs in the first place. They signed a contract, they should abide by it. Can you imagine the war that would break out if An Post suspended anyone who hadn't worked o/t. So why should we have sympathy for those who are costing our economy, damaging our reputations internationally and in general behaving like children who cry because another child won't let them play with their toy.

Victor

Yes, legally the position is you are not entitled to overtime hours. However, good HR practice when going from a position of large numbers of systematic overtime hours to none (e.g. when a factory goes from one to two shifts), is to provide the existing staff with some compensation. However, here we have a position where staff will go from working systematic overtime hours to part-time work and other will simply be laid off, pragmatism, common sense and ordinary decency dictates it be handled delicately.

Specky

In a well run company there should be no need for unions

In a well run company the staff should have open lines of communication both upwards and downwards through the management structure. Where there exists a very large workforce or where it may be distributed through multiple sites it is sensible to establish representatives for the staff through whom communications to and from management may flow.....sounds like a union to me....

Nothing wrong with the principle, in fact I'm all for unions, guilds, associations, institutions etc. But the purpose of business is to do business, whatever that business might be, and all those involved should be working together for the common good, not dividing into the management/worker "us and them" sides and turning the union into a political organisation with an agenda of its own.

BigEejit

Originally posted by Victor
Yes, legally the position is you are not entitled to overtime hours.

Correct

However, good HR practice when going from a position of large numbers of systematic overtime hours to none (e.g. when a factory goes from one to two shifts), is to provide the existing staff with some compensation.

Where did you hear that, I have been in two companies that axed O/T ... no-one ever thought to go on strike BECAUSE IT WAS O/T FOR FUCKS SAKE, why should these lads be different. If they were counting OT as a permanent part of their pay they were idiots.

However, here we have a position where staff will go from working systematic overtime hours to part-time work and other will simply be laid off

What percentages will go part-time and laid off ... There are private companies that were in the same position and have lost up to 30% of staff, didnt see them go on strike.

pragmatism, common sense and ordinary decency dictates it be handled delicately.

But crucially, it is not necessitated by law, they have no grounds for going on strike, they are putting Bertie under pressure because he wants a nice happy electorate before upcoming elections and the unions are exploiting this. All strikes recently have ended well for the unions ...... the CWU knows that it has bertie by the short hairs.

Sparks

Originally posted by BigEejit
they have no grounds for going on strike

They are not on strike.
They did not go on strike.
They cancelled their plans to go on strike before this ever hit the boards.ie forum.
Go read the SBPost article linked above, because you've got the wrong end of the wrong stick with regard to this topic....

pork99

Originally posted by Specky
In a well run company the staff should have open lines of communication both upwards and downwards through the management structure. Where there exists a very large workforce or where it may be distributed through multiple sites it is sensible to establish representatives for the staff through whom communications to and from management may flow.....sounds like a union to me....

Nothing wrong with the principle, in fact I'm all for unions, guilds, associations, institutions etc. But the purpose of business is to do business, whatever that business might be, and all those involved should be working together for the common good, not dividing into the management/worker "us and them" sides and turning the union into a political organisation with an agenda of its own.

I prefer to work either by myself or for SMEs. In that environment I don't think that the "them and us" culture promoted by a union is particularily helpful. You need more of a "we are all on the same team" philosophy.

I worked, for a couple of years, for a major retail bank in this country as a contractor. Let us call them "Bank of Hibernia" or BoH. I became discontented with my conditions. I moved to a better job. If I had no alternative but to work permanently for BoH I could imagine myself joining a union.

BigEejit

Originally posted by Sparks
They are not on strike.
They did not go on strike.
They cancelled their plans to go on strike before this ever hit the boards.ie forum.
Go read the SBPost article linked above, because you've got the wrong end of the wrong stick with regard to this topic....

Originally posted by ixoy
Great news! The CRWU is funding the staff who have been suspended. They account for approximately 6% of the staff of An Post only and it means that they can continue not to work in the sorting centres for weeks or even months, if needs be. Hurrah for An Post! (my source was the Irish Independent)

So they were(are?) on strike pay from the union, and they had been effectively stopping mail sorting etc in the affected offices ..... if that wasnt being on stike I dont know what is

Victor

Originally posted by BigEejit
So they were(are?) on strike pay from the union, and they had been effectively stopping mail sorting etc in the affected offices ..... if that wasnt being on stike I dont know what is

They were suspended by management so in union speak it was a lock-out.

Sparks

Originally posted by BigEejit
So they were(are?) on strike pay from the union, and they had been effectively stopping mail sorting etc in the affected offices ..... if that wasnt being on stike I dont know what is

It's called being suspended.
The reason that the strike pay needed a decision from the CWU before they got it was that they weren't on strike.