We have a choice, it will cost €2 Billion Either Way.

spongebob

Either

1. We do what the Dáil committee may say is necessary in an upcoming report to guarantee 5 Megabit Speeds to every household by 2005 and 10 Megabits for all by 2008 , which will cost a tad over €2 Billion of public funds.

or

2. We ask €ircon to spend the EXACT same amount of Biddy and Con Scanlons hard hard earned money in repairing and patching the €ircon network to the extent that it will support 56k Speeds to every Househld in the country ....by 2007 ISTR . This is what €ircon THEMSELVES said it would cost during the USO negotiations last year but we will all get spanking 56k speeds nationwide, slurpy slurps.

It is an interesting choice I know which investment I would personally go for.

AS Dermot Aherns Secretary , Touhy, said to Silicon Republic today .

“What we have experienced in recent years is a market failure or limitations of the market. When we liberalised the markets we believed the private sector would drive investment and provide the infrastructure upfront. It has not happened because there has been a shortage of capital in the sector.”

That would be the €2 Billion that Biddy and Soros took out of €ircon in the past 2 years Touhy ........... innit . Its not a shortage of Capital, its a leeching dry of a key piece of infrastructure for short term private gain . Funny how everything comes back to €2 Billion in the end .

Highlighting how Sweden is investing €5bn in rolling out broadband, Tuohy estimated that Ireland would need to invest €1.95bn to achieve 95pc total broadband coverage of the country.

M

BigEejit

Originally posted by Muck
Either

1. We do what the Dáil committee may say is necessary in an upcoming report to guarantee 5 Megabit Speeds to every household by 2005 and 10 Megabits for all by 2008 , which will cost a tad over €2 Billion of public funds.

It isnt stated but i assume this must be wireless? .... maybe even Fibre to the home? .... those dodgy looking/sounding baloons? ..... for €2bn you could put up a few satellites even!!

or

2. We ask €ircon to spend the EXACT same amount of Biddy and Con Scanlons hard hard earned money in repairing and patching the €ircon network to the extent that it will support 56k Speeds to every Househld in the country ....by 2007 ISTR . This is what €ircon THEMSELVES said it would cost during the USO negotiations last year but we will all get spanking 56k speeds nationwide, slurpy slurps.

It is an interesting choice I know which investment I would personally go for.

[comreg making decisions] er .... ahhhmmmm .... zero-baud is enough for anyone, lets just give €ircon the money and allow them to upgrade all the lines to 2baud (not kilo- or mega- ... just baud) to keep all those feckers in IrelandOffline off our backs [/comreg making decisions]

That would be the €2 Billion that Biddy and Soros took out of €ircon in the past 2 years Touhy ........... innit . Its not a shortage of Capital, its a leeching dry of a key piece of infrastructure for short term private gain . Funny how everything comes back to €2 Billion in the end .

Hate to be pedantic Muck, but its not the same €2bn at all!!! ... thats already been well spent (no doubt in proper telecoms companies elsewhere) .. the €2bn that he's talking about has to come out of our pockets AGAIN

dahamsta

Originally posted by BigEejit
It isnt stated but i assume this must be wireless? .... maybe even Fibre to the home? .... those dodgy looking/sounding baloons? ..... for €2bn you could put up a few satellites even!!

It isn't anything. It's an estimate created by taking the Swedish figure and doing some funky Oirish math.

"Jaysus, if de Swaydish can do it for five billun, sure we can do it for two!"

Unfortunately, they neglected the Oirish Contractor Con Multiplier[TM]. That's where a project ends up costing a multiple of the quoted price, because of Unforeseen Circumstances[TM].

adam

thegills

1.5M homes x 10m dig x €130/m = €1.9Bn

Dig = 2 ducts, 4 subducts and a 12 pair fibre.

Throw in a few quid extra for national backhaul from ESBT / Esat BT = €2Bn

Lets roll boys.

spongebob

Ya mean we can ALL have fibre for a tad more than the cost of upgrading the €ircon network to support 56k (ish) speeds nationwide. ???

M

jd

Originally posted by thegills
1.5M homes x 10m dig x €130/m = €1.9Bn

Dig = 2 ducts, 4 subducts and a 12 pair fibre.

Throw in a few quid extra for national backhaul from ESBT / Esat BT = €2Bn

Lets roll boys.

mm-are you saying the average distance between house in Ireland is about 10m?

Giblet

Well it wouldn't make any sense to invest that sort of money in old technology.

WezzyB

Maybe 10M is a good 'guestimate' or even a proper figure. I just hope this question doesn't spawn a load of population density posts, re: Ireland/Finland.

Back on topic I guess the 10M average is with respect to the local POP/Backhaul. So an average situation would mean 100 homes over a distance of 1 kilometer

thegills

Only speculating lads.

If the DCMNR were to hire contractors directly to dig in the fibre and pay them a decent annual salary then it would cost a lot less. There are also machines out there that would lay fibre in a road in no time at a few cm's depth and quite cheaply.

BigEejit

Originally posted by thegills
Only speculating lads.

If the DCMNR were to hire contractors directly to dig in the fibre and pay them a decent annual salary then it would cost a lot less. There are also machines out there that would lay fibre in a road in no time at a few cm's depth and quite cheaply.

The last time I saw fibre being laid it was on the road from Ballincollig heading west ... they had a machine that was trundling along quite nicely excavating a 1 foot wide fole that was about 4 - 5 foot deep ... I was wondering to myself "WTF are they putting it that deep in the ground for?, 1 1/2 foot would be enough seeings as nearly all new loads are only laid on top of old roads (after having the top couple of inches gouged off)" ... but, you and I were paying EsatBt to do it and sure we've loads of money :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

Re: Launch a Satellite - You can rent a satellite transponder for a lot less than €2Bn - I'm probably way out but maybe in the order of €1m per channel per year - of couse there are several channels per transponder. But 22Mb / 27.5Mb would be easily be covered in a €2Bn plan - as one way to give 100% coverage - latency and all that - well 95% won't care since they will have the real BB.

€2Bn - not peanuts, but it the sort of money that major infrastructure projects have overrun by. - same as the NRA - get in some foreigners to roll out if our own lot can't come close..

The backbone is already there - it is just the last mile - pity they can't just tie the fibre onto the old copper so as the copper is pulled out the fibre is pulled in.

Kinda remindes me of Dublin Gas or National Toll Roads - public funds making a private venture possible..

FTTH would sort out a lot of other projects as well - getting schools on line - rural buisnesses would be viable - telecomuting might possible reduce traffic a little.

$2Bn - that's only €500 per citizen - or four years line rental on existing lines.

Anyone know how much is paid out on the Dole or more inportantly is paid out to cover vandalism etc - BB could be used as an electronic Creche - not a solution by it's a nice side effect.

For once I might agree with buying an election - but only if there is real commitment - not like the promises on social housing or numbers of Guards.

Hmmm - the CIA wired up a cats' stomach and could guide it by remote control - could you do the same to moles ??

Eurorunner

For once I might agree with buying an election - but only if there is real commitment - not like the promises on social housing or numbers of Guards.

Not wanting to steer things off topic but which if any of our political parties have a genuine interest in sorting this whole thing out? If one was to take this issue alone, then who would it be best to vote for?

Jorinn

Originally posted by Eurorunner
Not wanting to steer things off topic but which if any of our political parties have a genuine interest in sorting this whole thing out? If one was to take this issue alone, then who would it be best to vote for?

Whichever ones is depserate enought to campaign for something they probably don't understand, FG is probaly a goof bet, though I still probably wouldn't vote for them.

Whoever promises it will probably break the promise anyway.

DMT

Who says fibre has to be underground? It would be easier run it along telegraph poles...

Moriarty

If we were going to build a national FTTH network like quite a number of countrys are now begining to do[1], we shouldn't make a half-arsed job of it. The main reason plant is buried is that it is a number of times (iirc a figure of 4/5) more dureable than overhead plant. It makes long term comerical sense to dig the trenches and create proper ducting and infrastructure.

As I've said previously and has been mentioned earlier in this thread, these are not vast sums of money we are talking about. From what I've read it's entirely within our reach to build a national FTTH network. The NRA have a budget of nearly €6bn. If the political will was there, €2bn over a number of years could easily be found for a project of such national importance (and prestiege). We could honestly say to investors that we have a state of the art telecomunications network to rival anywhere on the planet, all the way from local to international access. Countrys live and die on the state of their infrastructure and if we don't want to be left behind we need to start investing right now.

[1]:

• Full scale deployment in a number of Utah citys under UTOPIA. Other American states, noteably Texas and Virginia, are looking closely at this and begining to organise local 'copys'.
• NTT Japan are planning to vastly increase their FTTH network, spending $2.57billion in the next year on it - hoping to triple the number of FTTH subscribers to over 2 million.
• Telstra, the Australian incumbent telco that has often been blasted for being very similar to eircom in strategy, has started their FTTH network rollout, replacing the copper network with fibre.
• The Dutch town of Enschede was heavily damaged when a fireworks factory exploded, destroying a large number of houses there in 2000. The local housing coporation has decided that they should install a FTTH network while they are rebuilding the town.
• The president and chief executive of South Koreas Korea Telecom has laid out the companys plans to create a nationwide FTTC network, with planned expanstion of ethernet FTTH later this decade.

thegills

4 - 5 foot deep ... I was wondering to myself "WTF are they putting it that deep in the ground for

This is the Magnum Opus spec as used by the DCMNR for the MAN projects. All duct is laid this deep.

SkepticOne

I don't want to be too gloomy but there have been reports in the past and most of them have missed the point or have been shelved. Some of them have contained good recommendations that have been ignored. The last thing we need is another 200 page report.

Look at the report which detailed the fibre rings. Why is only 19 being completed at this stage. At least 67 were supposed to be done by now. Still no MSE, but the preffered bidder is a part-subsidiary of Eircom.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by DMT
Who says fibre has to be underground? It would be easier run it along telegraph poles...

I'll take a complete stab in the dark on this as to how much Eircom would charge to allow their cables to be used for this - They'd probably charge €2,000 per household and/or an annual rental of €25.

thegills

Why is only 19 being completed at this stage

Various reasons;

1. The national way leave agreement with CIE was only signed 2 weeks ago. This meant that none of the rail crossings could be complete until then.
2. SERA which accounts for 6 towns only went to Construction in the last 3 months
3. Limerick MAN is awaiting completion of the South Ring Road motorway.

There is a further 88 smaller MAN's now planned. I suppose the DCMNR wanted to complete the current 19 to see how they progressed. These projects are utilising a 'Fixed-Price' contract to keep costs from rising. These contracts are relatively untested until now.


A lot of the 19 projects are largely complete with only a few bits left.

Look at the report which detailed the fibre rings

Any links??

thegills

spongebob

Originally posted by thegills

Any links??

I remember an announcement by Mar O'Rourke in time for the 2002 election and not a report as such. Don't fancy linking that again so I don't.

What is the importance of the CIE deal in the overall backhauling matrix for the MAN systems by the way ?

Am I correct in saying that the NRA now includes ducting as part of all new National Road builds ....those planned since 2002 as I understand it .

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by thegills
There is a further 88 smaller MAN's now planned.

My understanding is that these 88 smaller MAN's from the original plan have been scalled back to Community Broadband Exchanges.

RahoodNobber

Most people have a 'sewer' , so why not take advantage ot it, net access stinks in Ireland so why not use the it to our owns means...

dahamsta

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
I'll take a complete stab in the dark on this as to how much Eircom would charge to allow their cables to be used for this - They'd probably charge €2,000 per household and/or an annual rental of €25.

Presumably there's exemptions or low rent agreements for the placement of telegraph poles in the Telegraphy Acts. Threaten to amend them. Never mind the telegraph poles on public property, can you imagine the hassle Eircom would have to deal with negotiating for the ones on private property?

adam

BigEejit

Of course fibre is non conductive or affected by magnetic fields, run it into houses ty-wrapped onto the ESB cables ....

er.. thats non-conductive when DRY :eek:

dahamsta

Originally posted by BigEejit
er.. thats non-conductive when DRY

Eircom would have difficulty understanding the concept of dry cables.

BigEejit

Originally posted by dahamsta
Eircom would have difficulty understanding the concept of dry cables.

OOOOOoooooooooo .... cutting remark ... and unfortunately entirely possible / probable ..:(

SkepticOne

Here's my prediction on this report. I hope I'm wrong.

The main problem will be identified as Eircom's inability to invest properly in the network. To combat this, a policy of working with eircom will be suggested whereby the State funds aspects of Eircom's capital expenditure. In return Eircom agrees to upgrade some more exchanges and remove some splitters on a case-by-case basis.

It seems that the cause of the problems is being attributed to the inability to raise money by Eircom for investment (ignoring the massive amount raised for the half billion dividend and the several hundreds of millions in financial services.)

Of course, the real cause is Eircom's monopoly and the fact that whether your line is adaquate or faulty, Eircom get exactly the same amount in line rental and call charges every month and consumers can only switch from one reseller to another.

iwb

Apparently rednecks with firearms are the reason for not hanging fibre in Ireland.
ESB gets away with it because the fibre is usually very high up and the shooters are afraid to fire at power lines.
Eircom or Telecom Eireann tried it in the past but it kept being shot at. Copper cables get shot at too but the result is a few lines downed which are repaired. When a fibre is shot at, it is usually another matter entirely as a more critical circuit is down and the repair is more involved and expensive.
Burying is usually the most reliable means of running cable as it is less prone to weather and shotguns but it can still be dug up and often is I guess. The ultimate is constructing rings.