Is Ireland next?

Gearoid

In light of the bombings yesterday in Madrid do you think we are next to be attacked if the attackers were Al-queda?, If they were and the motive being that they sent a hospital ship to Iraq surely theres a chance we're a possible target having allowed Shannon to be used for Troop movements and the big support we (Our Taoiseach) gives to America.
Your opions please.

mike65

At a guess..........NO!

Mike.

Verdammt

In my opinion, if you play with fire expect to get burned.

I'm a firm believer in "don't get involved in someone elses fight".

I think we are just asking for this kind of retaliation if we side with George Dubya Bush.

David-[RLD]-

FF were basically saying "bomb us please" to Al-Qaeda by siding with the USA and Britain.
Hopefully this won't sit too well with them at the next general election.

GuanYin

I would reckon that on the whole global view of things and the big war of the west Vs. East, we are rated on the scale somewhere between "insignificant" and "who".

I think the whole "should we worry" attitude is like the little kid who wants to be considered a hardened criminal because he hangs out with the dodgy mafioso types.

ixoy

Originally posted by syke
I would reckon that on the whole global view of things and the big war of the west Vs. East, we are rated on the scale somewhere between "insignificant" and "who".

I think the whole "should we worry" attitude is like the little kid who wants to be considered a hardened criminal because he hangs out with the dodgy mafioso types.

Spot on. It's almost egotistical to think that we'd even register in the grand scale of things. Firstly, of course, there's no proof this was an Al Qaeda operation. Secondly, I can far more interesting targets after Madrid (if it were Al Qaeda) than us lot. Sleep safe.

Victor

That the attack happened 911 days after 9/11 is significant, but no proof as someone could just be out to blame someone else (or not!) in the short term.

Are we next? I don't think so. Bigger fish to be caught and all that. Are we possible targets? Yes. We are westerners and seen to be siding with the Americans over the last few years, loosing our Arab-friendly status. At the same time, this is a largely Catholic country that has a history of anti-imperialism, which may have some saving grace.

Can I suggest heightened security for 911th and 1007th days after the attacks on Afghanistan? And of course Mayday provides a wonderful target. and the anniversary of the invasion of Iraq is 20th March.

Moriarty

From what I've seen and read I have come to the conclusion that Al-Qaeda most probably aren't sheep harassers.

There are many, many more significant and iconic targets in western europe alone than the entirety of Ireland. Think the London tube, the Eiffel tower, the Brandenburg gate, the European parliament... I could go on for hours.

bizmark

Ya but we have what no other European state has!

A giant over grown shiny telegraph pole with a light on top of it........Honestly now what self respecting terrorist wouldn’t want to take that out!

willywanka

Anyone who thinks 9-11 was the work of Al-Queda is living in a cloud of lies, living of propaganda spun by NSA and the american government...

Sparks

Was madrid the work of an Al-Quaeda cell? Noone knows. It's not very likely given what we now know though - the source now saying it was Al-Quaeda also claimed that the US blackouts were a terrorist act (they weren't) and to have Osama Bin Laden's diaries and a few other hoax stories. Reliable they ain't...

If it was, is there a list of EU targets? Probably, but I doubt it's that organised. Suicide bombers generally don't need databases, to-do lists and filing.

If there is a list, are we on it? Yes.

If we're on it, are we next? Probably not. We may have the EU presidency at the moment, a major airport in current use by the USAF and very low levels of security compared with, say, the UK or France - but other targets would be easier and would allow for more news coverage. You'd have to bomb several centres of population in Dublin, say, to get the same coverage. Mind you, the Paddy's day parade would be perfect. A few backpacks in O'Connell street, set off as the parade is passing, and you'd make every single news story round the world that night.
I

daveirl

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Agent Smith

i hope to god your joking..... right?

daveirl

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simu

haha! This made me laugh! Somehow, I don't think we're at the top of Ossama's list!

The chances of an individual being a victim of a terrorist attack are nearly zero anyway, despite what the hype in some of the newspapers would have you believe.

Sand

Yeah, I think were well down the list - given all the western states who have actually sent troops to help in Iraq, as well as the treacherous ( from Bin Ladens pov ) Middle East States which have provided far, far, more concrete and public assistance to the "crusaders" I think were a bit down the list. If were even on it.

Sparks

Originally posted by Sand
I think were a bit down the list. If were even on it.

Thing is, that's not a justified belief. Consider the following:

Shannon is currently quite important to US logistics in shipping men and equipment from the US to Europe and beyond, and it's in regular use at the moment.

Bush is coming here for a summit talk.

We hold the EU presidency and are arguably one of the softest targets in the EU right now.

We've got a major event with lots of people crowded in a public space under the eyes of the cameras coming up, at a time when Bertie will be off visiting Bush.

Basicly, if you wanted to cause the most mayhem with the least effort, a few backpack bombs on O'Connell street during the parade would pretty much be the optimal solution...

Meh

Originally posted by daveirl
Yeah how dare we stand against terrorism. Personally I think we should have assisted the Taleban in Afghanistan.

We should stop supporting women's rights and secularism in the Muslim world as well, we wouldn't want to risk getting on Osama's wrong side.

Gearoid

Shannon is currently quite important to US logistics in shipping men and equipment from the US to Europe and beyond, and it's in regular use at the moment.
Bush is coming here for a summit talk.
We hold the EU presidency and are arguably one of the softest targets in the EU right now.
We've got a major event with lots of people crowded in a public space under the eyes of the cameras coming up, at a time when Bertie will be off visiting Bush.

I have to agree here, the above points were in my head the last 2 days and made me start the thread.
Look at the Madrid bombings, the spanish weren't the biggest prestige targets all they did was get Behind Bush and send out a hospital ship, so assuming it was an arab group who bombed Madrid they probably did so because the US and the UK really have their guard up against ppl like that gettting in, and then if u look at us well we don't have anything near Uk or US resources and really are a soft target.
These fanatics won't wait til they can get New York, they will get ANY western target or it's allies (look at Turkey bombings and Bali) wherever there are westeners basically.
Not saying it's time to panic and go live up the Wicklow mountains but it IS a possibility because we're a soft target.

willywanka

I think we are a target for one reason or another. Be Shannon, Bush, EU presidency, close links to US and UK or whatever Al Quida have us penciled in for something.

Israel and America started this whole 9-11 thing off, they needed another cold war type war for the next 30 years and they got one. Those hijackers were helped by the US and Israel. Why should we pay with lives in order to keep jobs for their militaries. Bertie Ahern has to pull the plug on this US visit and call the whole thing off, for our own sakes.

Cork

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
FF were basically saying "bomb us please" to Al-Qaeda by siding with the USA and Britain.
Hopefully this won't sit too well with them at the next general election.

Where did FF chnage policy with regard to the use of Shannon airport??

They didn't.

Spain was attached. This was an attack on an EU member and it will require a common EU response.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Where did FF chnage policy with regard to the use of Shannon airport??
They didn't.

statement edited to read:
I cannot believe that you want us to accept that policy has not changed, despite the findings of Horgan v State , which have been pointed out to you several times, and which you have never once even addressed. But I guess you think that we should just accept your blindly-offered assurances over the reasoned findings of the highest Court in the land.


It has been proven in the High Court in Horgan v. State that the government went against fifty years of government policy in it's behaviour with the US and Shannon. It's a matter of record and not up for debate anymore!

Spain was attached. This was an attack on an EU member and it will require a common EU response.

Spain wasn't attacked. Just over a thousand people sitting in a train station were attacked. You start off down this "common EU response" malarky and we all know where it ends - an EU version of the patriot acts.
No thanks. We're smarter than the US (I hope) - we know that that road is the goal of the people planning these bombings.

mike65

Originally posted by willywanka
Israel and America started this whole 9-11 thing off, they needed another cold war type war for the next 30 years and they got one. Those hijackers were helped by the US and Israel. Why should we pay with lives in order to keep jobs for their militaries.

Blah Blah Blah....:rolleyes:

Mike.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
This was an attack on an EU member and it will require a common EU response.

Perhaps, but what would you propose?

Another war which - due to the European's comparative power will be even less successful than the US' campaign in terms of curbing terrorism?

Or perhaps that we just modify our entire lifestyles to live in fear of what might happem?

Or...I know...lets watch the train systems more closely. After all, we did that to the airports and look how successful that was.....a train-network was bombed.

What happened was disgusting and a tragedy, but if we're going to learn anything this time around it should be that knee-jerk reactions do not make the world safer.

jc

dathi1

Yeah, I think were well down the list

Considering we provided the logistics for the killing of 8-10,000 innocent people in Iraq, how far up or how far down the list is irrelevant. As a matter of fact our naivety when dealing with uncontrolled immigration and our general obliviousness to the mindset of these groups in our midst make us slightly higher up the list as an easy option. The people who provided the logistics to Bush: Biffo, Harney and Ahearn will be ok though.
ways to defeat madtowel heads:

1. Keep the pressure on Al Quieda and its subsidiaries worldwide.
2. Give Israel and ultimatum to leave the occupied territories or face sanctions.
3. Internationalise the Chechnya situation and get Russia out.
4. Bush out of the Whitehouse.....quick...and Blair with him.

LegacyUser

No I don't think we will be attacked, even if we are and they blow up twice as many people as they did in spain im still more likely to be killed on the roads and so is everyone else, terrorism is a non issue

martarg

Spain wasn't attacked. Just over a thousand people sitting in a train station were attacked. You start off down this "common EU response" malarky and we all know where it ends - an EU version of the patriot acts.

I don't know whether Ireland is high or low on Al Qaeda's list, and still less what the EU's reaction ought to be (though as a Spaniard at least I would be grateful for a little more sympathy and a little less "we had it coming"--not referring to you, just a general impression I am gathering these days), but considering that these over 1500 people who were attacked were not individually chosen targets, and all the "wrong" they did was to get on a train, I would indeed assume that it was an attack aimed at the country in general (which is also what separates a terrorist attack from other sorts of killing). I think it is a bad idea to cultivate a security paranoia over terrorist attacks, but neither would I favour the attitude that since it is not likely to happen to me, why worry or do anything... even if I may never be hurt on a car crash, it doesn't mean I should not support road safety policies.

I don't know if you have ever heard that Brecht poem, which says something like, "first they took black people, but I didn't care because I wasn't black; then they took the jews, but I didn't care because I wasn't a jew; after that they arrested the priests, but I am not a religious person so I didn't care either; then they arrested the communists, but since I am not a communist, I didn't care either; now they are coming to take me, but it is too late."

Bottom line, I think that whether Al Qaeda has Ireland on the list or not (and I don't think it takes much to be on it, Iraq is a big fat despicable excuse for Bush as well as for Al Qaeda), it is much better not to get too snug and comfortable at the thought that if you don't rock the boat you won't get wet. That doesn't bring us any closer to a solution, rather the opposite....

emertoff

I think the only possibility of a Madrid here would be due to ignorance on the Islamists (or whomever they are) part. It is amazing the amount of people who still consider this country to be part of the "British Isles." Robert Fisk, who is probably the best reporter on terrorism these days said on radio here a few months ago that most of them wouldn't even know where Ireland was though.

Sparks

Martarg, my point was not "oh, it wasn't us, it doesn't matter" - it was that it's not acceptable to go down the US route of "it's an attack on democracy and to fight it we need to make just a few small changes to our lives for the purpose of security - so from now on the cops can tap your phone, kidnap you from anywhere, intern you without trial or presenting charges, and don't get too used to that free speech thing". No offence was intended to anyone but Cork, and that only because he was jumping on a bandwagon that everyone else, with the exceptions of George Bush and Sky News, had the good taste to stay off.

mike65

...it is much better not to get too snug and comfortable at the thought that if you don't rock the boat you won't get wet. That doesn't bring us any closer to a solution, rather the opposite....

Well said as its the classic Irish response these days.

Mike.

PHB

I think its typical of the Irish physche(is that how you spell it?) to consider that Ireland would be a potential target.

First off OBL isn't an idiot, he knows what hes doing.
Al Queda didn't bomb spain, and it'll be shown so in the near future.

They know that international support is not there for America's foreign policy, which is what OBL objections were.

If they bombed Ireland, or any other European state, they would rally the world behind America's fight againist terrorism, and they won't want to do that.

If they attack again, which they havn't done yet have they?, they'll attack America.

Ro

I think the pole should be 'Is the UK next?'. They are the last of the big three members of Bush's coalition of the willing that haven't been attacked by these lunatics.

Sand

Shannon is currently quite important to US logistics in shipping men and equipment from the US to Europe and beyond, and it's in regular use at the moment.

This a major issue for the activists in Ireland. Outside of Ireland, it isnt. The truth is if they werent using Shannon theyd use another base in the UK as a pit stop. The truth is, Bin Laden probably couldnt find Ireland on a map. The truth is, Bertie did such a good job of sitting on the fence a person outside of Ireland might have a hard time figuring out whether Ireland was supporting Bush or against him given the contradictions in his pronouncements on the whole issue.

Bush is coming here for a summit talk.

We hold the EU presidency and are arguably one of the softest targets in the EU right now.

Bush will be coming with a small army with a 10 mile radius exsclusion zone on the ground and a 30 mile radius no fly zone, with an aircraft carrier off in the atlantic on standby.

It wont be the Gardai running security on that particular day.

As for the EU presidency and the soft target, that was true before the Madrid bombings - why werent we bombed instead of Madrid? Honestly, imo its because we dont even register. Being the Eu president is a rotating thing - the true power players in the EU remain the big nations regardless of whose president.

Basicly, if you wanted to cause the most mayhem with the least effort, a few backpack bombs on O'Connell street during the parade would pretty much be the optimal solution...

Again, true of anywhere - they could do it every day of the year if it was simply a case of having lax security. They dont need a particular motive, Were Christian westerners - these guys happily slaughter Shia Muslims. If it was simply a case of us having poor security - why arent they bombing us every day?

But they dont. theyve been selective in their targeting to cause maximum slaughter of particular people for the political coup. The Australians in Bali, the French naval personnel in Pakistan, along with that countrys leadership, the aforementioned attacks on the Shias in Iraq, the attacks in Saudia Arabia and Morroco. Theyre not purely random attacks - theyre attacks on the foremost nations in the war against terror, and their regional supporters. Ireland does not fit the bill. A dead american is worth far more than a dead irish person in their propaganda billing.

We should stop supporting women's rights and secularism in the Muslim world as well, we wouldn't want to risk getting on Osama's wrong side.

Yeah, Osama might bomb us for that too. The EU should probably give Osama veto powers on any and all legislation in exchange for immunity from bombings. Now theres a solution that doesnt involve confronting these groups.

To be on the safe side we should also probably all convert to wahibbism.

Spain wasn't attacked. Just over a thousand people sitting in a train station were attacked.

Why were they attacked?

Considering we provided the logistics for the killing of 8-10,000 innocent people in Iraq, how far up or how far down the list is irrelevant.

I disagree, but your points re strategy dealing with the terrorists are quite agreeable.

it is much better not to get too snug and comfortable at the thought that if you don't rock the boat you won't get wet. That doesn't bring us any closer to a solution, rather the opposite....

Its classic defeatism. The problem cant be confronted - its impossible, its dangerous, its doomed to failure. Logically the next step is to determine how to minimise your exsposure to it. Appointing Blin Laden head of government and conversion to Islam (and the right sort of Islam too - none of that moderate stuff for Taoiseach Bin Laden please ) is the clear answer of this logic.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
The truth is, Bertie did such a good job of sitting on the fence a person outside of Ireland might have a hard time figuring out whether Ireland was supporting Bush or against him given the contradictions in his pronouncements on the whole issue.

Thats funny. An Irish friend of mine in Bahrain said that the Irish ex-pats over there were treated with vastly more hostility once Bertie allowed the use of Shannon. Before that, they were treated as "this has nothing to do with you, we have no problem with you". After it, it was a case of "You have sided with the Americans against Islam. You fscking Irish."

Bush will be coming with a small army with a 10 mile radius exsclusion zone on the ground and a 30 mile radius no fly zone, with an aircraft carrier off in the atlantic on standby.

Excellent. So while Bush comes here and says what great buds we are, there'll be a nice small part of the country which is safe. Once he's left, however, what will he leave us on the the fact that he highlighted to the world how helpful in teh war on terror we've been, and so on and so forth.

Theyre not purely random attacks - theyre attacks on the foremost nations in the war against terror, and their regional supporters. Ireland does not fit the bill.

Does not fit the bill in who's eyes??? In the eyes of you and I - who insist that terrorism is the wrong way to deal with a problem in the first place? Or in the eyes of those extremist people who's entire way of life is more or less incomprehensible to us??? How did you get to be such an expert on how these people think? If you are that good at understanding their mindset, can you tell us who is next?

jc

chill

If we have any self respect and sense of integrity and honour we will realise that we are part of Europe and part of western culture and that this hate War is on us as much as on the US, Spain and Britain.

Instead of crawling into some kind of pathetic cowardly corner hoping the bad people won't notice us then we will get what we deserve from both the mass murderers and our friends around the world who will see us for the snivelling cowards that we would be.

We need to stand up and be counted as Irish people who are not afraid to support our friends in the face of such evil. We have a long tradition of standing up to tyranny and brutality and we should take our place alongside others.

PHB

While I agree with the sentiments chill, some people would think that America are the tyranic and brutal power

BarryFry

I would say that Ireland has about as much chance of being hit as Bali.

It seems that Al-Qaeda don't always go for the obvious targets - indeed the more random and unfathomable, the greater the terror!

I wouldn't worry about it though. Al-Qaeda will probably kill about 200 people a year for the next ten years. Novelty carpet slippers are estimated to cause the same amount of deaths per annum in the UK alone!

(It's people trying to descend stairs with them on that 's the big problem, apparently)

martarg

Martarg, my point was not "oh, it wasn't us, it doesn't matter" - it was that it's not acceptable to go down the US route of "it's an attack on democracy and to fight it we need to make just a few small changes to our lives for the purpose of security - so from now on the cops can tap your phone, kidnap you from anywhere, intern you without trial or presenting charges, and don't get too used to that free speech thing". No offence was intended to anyone but Cork, and that only because he was jumping on a bandwagon that everyone else, with the exceptions of George Bush and Sky News, had the good taste to stay off.

Ok Sparks, point taken.... : o ) Of course I agree with all that, it means finishing off the terrorists' work, we westerners so proud of our democracies and so ready to forget civil liberties under pressure...

As regards the question of whether Al Qaeda may be likely to attack Ireland or not, I think there are several points to take into account. To begin with, Al Qaeda works as independent cells in the different countries, it doesn't matter if Bin Laden from his Afghan hideout is aware of Ireland's location on the map. If you have a sufficiently large muslim immigrant base with some fundamentalist component, you may already have an Al Qaeda cell on Irish territory that might strike, or not, simply because you are Christian infidels, as someone pointed out....

That said, it is true that some countries have more tickets for the raffle than others. It now appears that some of the suspects are Moroccans. Spain has had a long and troubled relationship with Morocco, and a vast immigrant population with its own social and economic issues, so I would imagine that individual personal background has its own weight, whatever Bin Laden may say from Afghanistan. Then again, who can tell what twisted criteria the terrorists will apply....

mr_angry

Given that Bin Laden himself studied and lived in London for some years, I'm sure he's well-aware of the existence of Ireland. And assuming he's the criminal mastermind that he's made out to be, I assume he'd at least contemplate the logistics of staging an attack in Ireland.

But how do you respond to such mindless hate? Create a police state? Try to eradicate them from the face of the Earth? Just keep our fingers crossed and hope that nothing happens? To me, none of these options seem particularly good, and I don't honestly see a good alternative. The real problem is the imbalance of wealth in the world today, and until that is rectified, we are doomed to repeat the same series of events over and over again.

MrPinK

Originally posted by chill
If we have any self respect and sense of integrity and honour we will realise that we are part of Europe and part of western culture and that this hate War is on us as much as on the US, Spain and Britain.

It's not a war against western culture that Al Qaeda are fighting though. They aren't trying to stop the spread of freedom and democracy around the world, as American propagandists spout. Their war is against the western military presence on what they consider holy lands, the interference of western governments in Middle Eastern politics for economic reasons, and the US's unconditional support for Isreal.

dathi1

We need to stand up and be counted as Irish people who are not afraid to support our friends in the face of such evil. We have a long tradition of standing up to tyranny and brutality and we should take our place alongside others.

Exactly..by opposing the occupation of Palestine and pushing for the "coalition" out of Iraq in favour of an Muslim based international force.... the first 2 steps to quelling the oxygen of Islamic fundamentalism. Now what you mean is by supporting Partido Popular, Blair and the rest...then I assume your one of those good guys / bad guys theorists.

BarryFry

Originally posted by mr_angry
Given that Bin Laden himself studied and lived in London for some years, I'm sure he's well-aware of the existence of Ireland. And assuming he's the criminal mastermind that he's made out to be, I assume he'd at least contemplate the logistics of staging an attack in Ireland.

But how do you respond to such mindless hate? Create a police state? Try to eradicate them from the face of the Earth? Just keep our fingers crossed and hope that nothing happens? To me, none of these options seem particularly good, and I don't honestly see a good alternative. The real problem is the imbalance of wealth in the world today, and until that is rectified, we are doomed to repeat the same series of events over and over again.

I was agreeing with you mr_a until your last statement. Al-Qaeda have never campaigned for the rescinding of third world debt, or fair trade for Columbian coffee growers.

Al-Qaeda want a Sunni-dominated islamic world free of all non-sunni influence, whether it be from the West, the Jews, the Shia or the Turks. Well, that's their initial negotiating position.

It should be pointed out that this is not something that the overwhelming majority of muslims themselves want, in the Arab world or anywhere else. Which is why, out of the Billion-plus muslims, only a few thousand at most follow Al-Qaeda.

martarg

It's not a war against western culture that Al Qaeda are fighting though. They aren't trying to stop the spread of freedom and democracy around the world, as American propagandists spout. Their war is against the western military presence on what they consider holy lands, the interference of western governments in Middle Eastern politics for economic reasons, and the US's unconditional support for Isreal.

True, but I think it is even more complicated than that. The situation in the Middle East is probably the biggest issue, but Al Qaeda is formed by many different isolated cells, ranging from the Taliban to the Philippino fundamentalists, I have the feeling that this is a more global phenomenon, likely to appear wherever Islamic fundamentalists have a grievance or an objective of any kind. They are not probably targetting democracy itself, but whatever deviates from their notions of "purity". And personally, I am not sure exactly where they are willing to stop. Bin Laden himself mentioned re-conquering "Al-Andalus" (i.e. Spain )

BarryFry

Originally posted by martarg
Bin Laden himself mentioned re-conquering "Al-Andalus" (i.e. Spain )

He would find it full of fat, drunken British tourists. Then he would start to wish he was back in Afghanistan......

martarg

He would find it full of fat, drunken British tourists. Then he would start to wish he was back in Afghanistan......

Thanks, you have made me laugh, I needed it... things have been so depressing around here since the attack on Thursday....

And by the way, according to the latest election results, it appears PP is out, PSOE in...

kanurocks

you cant claim its completely sectarian.Bin laden was trained by the c.i.a he knows the united states underlying agenda.Be that political or economical(oil duh!)