The Irish Famine

sci0x

Hey everybody,

Im looking up information on the famine for school. If anyone could point me in the direction of good websites id appreciate it!

Thanks,
Denis

Suaimhneach

It wasn't a famine, it was a patatoe blight.

There was food in the counrty, but it all went to britian.

Tony Blair sent out a letter in the 90's apologising for it and for not helping us out....

Seriously.

My dad still has it.

Also, just search in google.

PHB

Thats just silly.

There was a famine, and what happened was that the amount of food produced was only enough to pay the rent for the land that they rented, and then a little bit to eat.

The rent food was always sold off to England.

My dad still has it.

How come i didn't get one?

Walter Ego

A huge number of people dying because a single crop fails while other food is readily on hand does not consitute a famine. I believe the correct term is genocide.

I believe the correct term is genocide

not quite. There was no intent to kill off the irish at that stage. I think it was that for the most part they didn't care.

Walter Ego

No more than Hitler cared about the Jews. We were a source of cheap disposable labour. With the emphasis on disposable. When you remember the potatoes failed 3 years in a row it seems a lilttle more sinister.

No more than Hitler cared about the Jews.

Again not quite. Hitler sought the killing off of all Jews. He saw them as an inferior Species. The British despised the Irish as barbarians, but the majority of Britain held no antipathy against the Irish. That was reserved for the nobility/landowners to have.

We were a source of cheap disposable labour.

Ireland was an occupied country. Of course we were.

With the emphasis on disposable.

No nation had looked thoroughly into such conditions as the Irish famine before (as far as i'm aware). You forget that landowners were running a business. Loosing workers meant less profits.

When you remember the potatoes failed 3 years in a row it seems a lilttle more sinister.

I don't see it that way, but then i look at it as mismanagement of a realm rather than an attack on the Irish themselves.

Walter Ego

Hitler lost and therefore didn't get to write the history books. The British who did write our history books were not likely to present their actions in a poor light.

I accept your point that we were assets in a business but as humans we deserved to be treated better than other assets, say horses or cows which did not appear to be allowed starve in great numbers.

Hitler lost and therefore didn't get to write the history books.

True, but the systematic destruction of the Jews was not a justification for the Allies. It was not a figment of their imagination, that they wished to advertise since they were the victors. Had Hitler written the History books, he wouldn't have hidden the destruction of the Jews, he would have highlighted it as his crowning achievement.

The British who did write our history books were not likely to present their actions in a poor light.

No Nation ever will want to. Neither do the Irish. hence our glorious legends of fights against the British, and our almost ignorance abt the clans that joined the British. I've read a fair number of books from both Irish and British authors, recently & from older books, and all of them are skewed to support their respective nations.

I accept your point that we were assets in a business but as humans we deserved to be treated better than other assets, say horses or cows which did not appear to be allowed starve in great numbers.

Horses/Cows could live effectively off the land. Millions of irishpeople put too much strain on it, hence the third blight. The first was probably caused by poor farming methods (traditional Irish farming methods that is). At that time, the British ruling class/Landlords didn't see the Irish on average as humans. Troublesome workers, maybe. Constant uprisings had made the british very wary of the Irish, and since the British didn't increase the food leaving ireland during the Famine they failed to realise the lack of food in Ireland effectively until the second famine was nearly finished. (Government work programmes, personal Irish Family wealth, and reserves kept the 1st famine being as bad as it could have been).

You see, i see the famine differently than you. The famine was caused by poor farming, terrible allotment of land practices by Irish Families, and the paranoid insecurity of the Landowners. In my opinion at least. I don't see it as a method to clear away the Irish. I'm sure some British people saw it that way, but i don't see the British govern doing it.

Walter Ego

I think we will have to agree to differ on this. None of it is helping Sci0x with his project anyway.

None of it is helping Sci0x with his project anyway

Lol. true enough. But the best answer was already given. Searching Google. <shrugs>

sci0x

Originally posted by Silent Death
I think we will have to agree to differ on this. None of it is helping Sci0x with his project anyway.

To be honest, im quite enjoying your little arguement. Btw i have had this project done for a few days now.

Thanks,
Denis

Walter Ego

Remember, if you were having half the fun I was, I was having twice the fun you were.:D

DadaKopf

The Nobel laureate Amartya Sen has rightly insisted that famine is almost always a preventable occurrence if only the government in question has the political will to prevent it. This dictum applies as much to Ireland in the late 1840s as Sen meant it to apply to India a century later. Just as in the case of the Bengali victims of famine in the early 1940s, so too with those of the Great Famine in Ireland, the mass death of enormous multitudes of people stemmed partly from their perceived status as the cultural and social inferiors of those who governed them. This status, imposed by British rulers on their colonial subjects, made their plight seem much less urgent in Britain and caused it to be misperceived.

It seems doubtful that the British governing classes learned much from their Irish experience in the late 1840s. In British India, during the years 1876-79, famine claimed the lives of between six and ten million people. And between 1896 and 1902, an almost certainly even higher toll from starvation and disease (the estimates range from six to nineteen million) was recorded there, just as the reign of Victoria, the Empress-Queen, came to its inglorious close.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/famine_print.html

Of course, it was only a matter of time until people started mentioning Hitler. :rolleyes:

The Nobel laureate Amartya Sen has rightly insisted that famine is almost always a preventable occurrence if only the government in question has the political will to prevent it.

*almost* is the thing in question here. Of course its avoidable in hindsight, the problem is foreseeing its occurance and preventing it.

A crop of Potatoes could feed twice as many people as corn at the same period in time. However if the crop failed, famine would set in. The Famine in Ireland was as much the fault of the Irish population as it was the fault of the British Government. I always find it odd, how we have to stick to the belief that Irish people didn't do anything wrong, and that its all Britains Fault.

This status, imposed by British rulers on their colonial subjects, made their plight seem much less urgent in Britain and caused it to be misperceived.

The point of this is that we're looking back and judging by our standards. Times & cultures have changed too much to look back and say how wrong it was. The period that the Famine fell into, was a harsh time, where a city's population if caught by war, could easily be slaughtered. Men, Women, Children. Acceptable? Not now. Back then, yes.

I'm Irish. I'm not excusing the British for the Famine, but i've gotten tired of hearing all the woes of our history being blamed on the British.

To be honest, im quite enjoying your little arguement. Btw i have had this project done for a few days now.

heh. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Want to join in? :eek:

simu

A crop of Potatoes could feed twice as many people as corn at the same period in time. However if the crop failed, famine would set in. The Famine in Ireland was as much the fault of the Irish population as it was the fault of the British Government. I always find it odd, how we have to stick to the belief that Irish people didn't do anything wrong, and that its all Britains Fault.

The fault of the Irish people? I'm sure they would have planned things better if they hadn't been driven off all the good land and denied education!

We're an independant nation now so there's no need for us to feel we're still victims of Britain but back then, it has to be said, the actions of the British govt towards Ireland were far from noble.

An Fear Aniar

Originally posted by klaz

The Famine in Ireland was as much the fault of the Irish population as it was the fault of the British Government. I always find it odd, how we have to stick to the belief that Irish people didn't do anything wrong, and that its all Britains Fault.

That's crazy talk Klaz. Do you think if the Irish people had any say in the running of their own affairs that they would be entirely dependent on one crop?

You ignore the fact that the English Corn Laws kept the price of Corn artificially high.

Crazy talk.

The fault of the Irish people? I'm sure they would have planned things better if they hadn't been driven off all the good land and denied education!

Not completely their fault, however its time that Irish people realised that not everything is Britain's fault. It was partially both their faults.

As for good land, and education. <shrugs> They kept their traditions towards the farming of land, without a real concentration of crop rotation.

That's crazy talk Klaz.

Not Really. As per below, i'm just tired of seeing the Irish people as being poor misguided people, who didn't stand a chance from day one.

Do you think if the Irish people had any say in the running of their own affairs that they would be entirely dependent on one crop?

I have no idea. But then neither do you.

You ignore the fact that the English Corn Laws kept the price of Corn artificially high.

I'm not really talking abt that. Rather i'm aiming at the point that the Irish are not completely innocent for their circumstances.

An Fear Aniar

Originally posted by klaz


I'm not really talking abt that. Rather i'm aiming at the point that the Irish are not completely innocent for their circumstances.

Klaz, if you don't take the Corn Laws into account then you won't understand the Irish Famine. They're the whole reason the Irish were 100% dependent for food on just one plant. I advise you to hit the books and then you can make your judgement.

Irish people had NO say whatsoever in the running of their country, the Famine happened on England's watch - even Tony Blair has apologised for that.

Do you think it natural that people should die of Famine ina green and fertile land? If not, then the government of the day is to blame and that govt was English.

I take your point about blaming the Brits for everything but they really were at fault here.

An Fear Aniar - I wasn't saying that it wasn't down to the fault of the British, or their laws. However, what i am saying is that it was also down to the Irish Culture, history, traditions and general demeanour that helped the Famine to happen. The British occupation was a huge factor, and could be taken as a single reason for the famine. However, in order to understand the famine you cannot look at just one aspect, the irish factors still had a huge impact, and were a significiant portion for the causes of the famine.

Irish people had NO say whatsoever in the running of their country, the Famine happened on England's watch - even Tony Blair has apologised for that.

Not quite true. The Irish did have a say. Unfortuently, not much of one, and also they tended to back the wrong parties. On their own, they didn't have enough in the parliment to do anything on their own, however, allied to British parties they could provide extra support to the traditional parties, which in turn should have caused concessions for the Irish people.

The Famine happened on England's watch, and if it was the England of today, i'd be screaming for blood. But the England of today is a far cry different to the England back then.

And Tony Blair's comment was just a political comment to gain favour. At least in my eyes.

simu

However, what i am saying is that it was also down to the Irish Culture, history, traditions and general demeanour that helped the Famine to happen. The British occupation was a huge factor, and could be taken as a single reason for the famine. However, in order to understand the famine you cannot look at just one aspect, the irish factors still had a huge impact, and were a significiant portion for the causes of the famine.

So what are these other factors then? What history, tradition and demeanour are you talking about?