Trolling...

Sparks

Am I the only one that's noticing a recent sharp increase in the number of blatent trolling posts in this forum?

bonkey

You know if you just ignore them they'll go away.

Trolling is about causing disruption and seeking attention. The more of both that you give the trolls, the more you'll get them.

I would also point out that it is entirely possible that many of the people you suspect are trolls actually hold the beliefs that they are posting.

Also, would it shock you to know that a minimum of two other posters have recently contacted me insisting that you are unquestionably a troll.

On the assumption that you aren't a troll, exactly how do you propose that the mods make the distinction between "I can't believe you actually believe that", and "I know you don't believe that and are only trying to stir crap"?????

Should we ban the people you think are trolls but leave you alone despite others saying it about you? Should we have a sub-form entitled "vote-a-troll" where we get to put up yes/no threads on "is X a troll" and ban anyone who gets a majority Yes with a vote-count over a certain amount? Or should we continue with our current stance which is - if you think someone is a troll, then ignore them or report them.

Finally, I don't actually see any problem with trolls as long as they can keep their stated opinions within the rules. They are nothing more than the ultimate Devil's Advocate in a political discussion as far as I am concerned.

Consider this. Someone posts something they may or may not believe believe in, which you consider to be a troll. You go ballistic in response and start swearing all over the place (taking your most recent post in the IRA thread as a handy example, because I'm guessing thats what prompted this thread).

Now, if the original post was not a troll, the level of bile which was posted in that particular reply is completely unacceptable. If it was a troll, then what the hell were you replying to it for? No offense, but I find feeding trolls to be a bigger waste of time than trolling. At least trolls get some giggles out of their actions.

And if the original post was a troll - which is the worse crime?

"Polite" trolling, or feeding trolls by losing your cool and showing that once the right buttons are pressed your well-thought-out argument disappears in a wave of invective which would normally get someone banned.

Ultimately, I can't see the problem. I honestly cannot see why people feel obliged to either point out "oooo - he's a troll" or go head-to-head with them when they know thats what the troll is looking for. I mean, seriously....if you don't like trolls, then don't feed them.

I'm quite happy to leave this thread open to hear what others think, and you may find that Gandalf and Swiss have a different take on it....but personally speaking....no, I don't see an increase in trolls, and even if I did, it would take a lot to convince me that anything needs to be done about trolls in general.

gandalf

Sparks can you provide quoted examples of such trolls please?

Gandalf.

mr_angry

Isn't that in danger of turning this into a "name & shame" thread Gandalf?

bonkey

Nah - he can PM them to the mods if he wants.

jc

ireton

you learn as much from them as anyone else.

Sparks

Originally posted by gandalf
Sparks can you provide quoted examples of such trolls please?
Gandalf.

PM'd.

azezil

I see nothing wrong with a little trolling, its light hearted entertainment. If the thread goes too far off topic, its no big deal for the moderator to remove a few posts and send a warning pm, personnaly I don't see why people get so worked up over it.

DeVore

On a forum as serious as Politics it is like walking around a pertrol station juggling flaming battons.

This is one of the few places where you can come and (reasonably) civilly discuss politics (and the range of left and right wing views we have here is a testament to that). I'd rather it didnt descend into assinine trollage.

DeV.

bonkey

Originally posted by DeVore
This is one of the few places where you can come and (reasonably) civilly discuss politics (and the range of left and right wing views we have here is a testament to that).

I believe this too, but I am constantly staggered by the number of people who end up defending their points by insisting that it is impossible to actually have a rational discussion here.

I'd rather it didnt descend into assinine trollage.

So would I...but I feel obligated to wait with the vast majority of users to figure out if something is assinine trollage, or just what I may consider as an assinine viewpoint that they actually hold (and often are incapable of arguing well).

Take the recent debacle concerning the various Irish Jets threads. Was that trollage, or a person/people from another BBS (which shall remain nameless) coming over to defend/argue a point of view that they genuinely hold against what they see as ill-educated "crusties" (as I believe is the term they use on their board)???

As a moderator, I felt obliged to assume the latter....although I will admit that he/they may have been cut slightly less slack than normal once the newly-registered usernames started appearing.

jc

Nuttzz

I have to agree with you there bonkey about the whole jets thing, I really do think that those guys (gals?) did believe in what they were saying. Whether they could justify the point of view or not is a totally different matter.

If they are from another board bonkey could you PM me the link, I would be interested to see if the jets theme is replayed there or applies to other areas of defence

Trolling - Is it a comment to inflame regular posters, or is it just someone that doesn't have time to post to everything?

I mean, i've been accused of trolling, & if that means replying to certain types of threads or having a decent amt of time within posts, then thats true. I no longer have the time to live on boards, and yet i find myself wanting to share my views on certain topics. (Hence my post number )

lucernarian

Where exactly is the dividing line between trolling and expressing an opinion? I'm not really sure when a post is a strong opinion or a troll.

thesecret7

that whole jets thread displayed the limited level of knowledgecertain people had on the subject. It could be easily be said that certain people starting this thread are guilty of trolling also

Certain people on this board have faced intimidation and threats when their views have not "conformed":ninja:

lucernarian

I read that thread a couple of weeks ago but I don't remember what ppl were saying. Were these people supporting the "for" or "against" argument?

bonkey

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
Where exactly is the dividing line between trolling and expressing an opinion? I'm not really sure when a post is a strong opinion or a troll.

Now you are beginning to understand the problem the moderators face Given that we take hte standard "innocent till proven guilty", you have to assume that anything borderline is an opinion - albeit an illiformed or crass one by your standards - and therefore is valid.

It could be easily be said that certain people starting this thread are guilty of trolling also

Lack of knowledge does not make an opinion a troll - just uninformed.

jc

thesecret7

It could be easily be said that certain people starting this thread are guilty of trolling also

Thats a FACT

bonkey

Originally posted by thesecret7
Thats a FACT

Well, seeing as how our rules ask that you suply linkage to back up a fact.....

Back your claim up with something other than personal opinion, or retract it please.

I'll give you to the end of the weekend.

Failure to do so will lead me to the conclusion that you are trolling, at which point I'll take action because I've given you fair warning.

jc

D

Well with reference to the airline debate, I think that what often happens when a debate is going on and someone gets accused of trolling is when the someones' posts are based on personal experiences and beliefs. These can often go against someone elses experiences or someone might have actual factual information that is contradicted by that persons experiences. That doesn't make either side of the argument any less valid but often this can be seen as trolling.

mr_angry

While its not strictly trolling, not backing up your assertions with some kind of evidence is directly against the Politics charter. I find that this is a far bigger problem than the small numbers of outright, full-blown trollage on the board, and also results in a lot of people being labelled as trolls.

Is there any mechanism for banning someone from a particular thread, without banning them from the entire Board?

bonkey

Originally posted by mr_angry
While its not strictly trolling, not backing up your assertions with some kind of evidence is directly against the Politics charter.

Yup. We've gotten somewhat slack on enforcing that but do expect people to be able to provide some sort of backup to anything presented as fact on request.

So, I don't really mind the "got any references to that" posts - I think its a workable way of letting threads flow a bit better. Maybe I should talk this over with Gandalf and Swiss and see if there's a need to update the rules a bit. Of course, I keep threatening to do that, but I'm lazy I am.

I find that this is a far bigger problem than the small numbers of outright, full-blown trollage on the board, and also results in a lot of people being labelled as trolls.

Yup....and its the labelling that seems to cause the most problem. You can decide that poster X is a moron, a troll, a blithering idiot, an ignorant fsck, or whatever else you like....but its when ppl start expressing these opinions in-thread that all hell starts to break loose.

jc

thesecret7

Well, seeing as how our rules ask that you suply linkage to back up a fact.....

Back your claim up with something other than personal opinion, or retract it please.

I'll give you to the end of the weekend.

Failure to do so will lead me to the conclusion that you are trolling, at which point I'll take action because I've given you fair warning.

So I cant express my own personal opinion is that right Bonkey?? If i dont CONFORM TO YOUR OPINION your going to take "action" since you gave me "fair warning":S

Well please go back to the fighter thread and you wil find certain people trolling through picking up other peices of info and posting it.

ecksor

Originally posted by thesecret7
So I cant express my own personal opinion is that right Bonkey?? If i dont CONFORM TO YOUR OPINION your going to take "action" since you gave me "fair warning":S

My interpretation was that he was asking you to back up your statement of 'FACT' rather than expressing anything regarding his own opinions and how they do or do not differ from yours. This is consistent with the Politics guidelines.

thesecret7

My interpretation was that he was asking you to back up your statement of 'FACT' rather than expressing anything regarding his own opinions and how they do or do not differ from yours.

Well what I read was that action would be taken if I didnt conform. This coming from the so called "moderator" who is seemly making little of other people and making numerous insults. Its a case of do what I say and not what I do!!

Im going to have to go trolling to get the required information. I dont know if I have the time to waste today....

Atreides

Originally posted by thesecret7
So I cant express my own personal opinion is that right Bonkey?? If i dont CONFORM TO YOUR OPINION your going to take "action" since you gave me "fair warning":S

Well please go back to the fighter thread and you wil find certain people trolling through picking up other peices of info and posting it.

Personal opinion is fine, once its clearly labeled as such, and not protrayed as in anyway a fact.

ecksor

Originally posted by thesecret7
Well what I read was that action would be taken if I didnt conform.

I was going to point you to the thread discussing the forum rules if you had something to say about them, but I see that you already commented with something similar to that comment there. I'm curious to know what you consider to be the boards.ie viewpoint that you must conform to.

Do you not see how if everyone came along asserting 'FACTS' in the manner you did without backing them up then discussion falls by the wayside? Nobody is making you conform in your opinion, you are being made to conform in how you express that opinion.

This coming from the so called "moderator" who is seemly making little of other people and making numerous insults. Its a case of do what I say and not what I do!!

I must have missed the post where you were insulted or made little of. However, this isn't the place for criticism of the moderation. The Admin forums are for such grievances.

Im going to have to go trolling to get the required information. I dont know if I have the time to waste today....

I didn't see a request for information?

emmaisbornfree

ecksor i think you should mind your own business and leave it to the secret seven and bonkey to sort out. If bonkey wants to take action he should do so. the secret seven shouldnt have said it was a fact.

Trolling is for silly people. lets all get along:)

ecksor

I have no doubt that they will sort it out between them, but if there's a complaint about the moderation then I don't mind poking my nose in, especially if there's a suggestion of a 'boards.ie' line that must be towed.

thesecret7

im not withdrawning my comments nor im I going to troll to pick through other peoples posts. bonkey can delete what he wants

bonkey

Originally posted by thesecret7
im not withdrawning my comments nor im I going to troll to pick through other peoples posts. bonkey can delete what he wants

No, I'll just give you a one-week ban effective immediately.

Next time you want to post a FACT, be willing to back it up. Otherwise, present it as OPINION.

And as Ecksor rightly pointed out...if you have a problem with this, take it to the Admin Forum and lodge a complaint.

jc

thejollyrodger

Thats pretty oppressive !!!

I dunno, but the way i see it is that this is pretty much their board, and by posting here we accept their rules. Might be unfair, but don't rock the boat, unless you're capable of facing the consequences.

DeVore

Thats pretty oppressive !!!

No its not, he stated something was "FACT" (in capitals no less) and was asked to back up his claim that it was indeed "FACT" by providing links to examples or to remove the claim.

Then he got all shirty with the moderator and has been banned for a week. Simple.

emmaisbornfree: Ecksor is an admin. Its not wise to tell admins to "mind their own business" when in fact this IS our business (literally) and Ecksor is minding it.
I havent kicked you off the site cos I presume you thought he was just a regular joe.

I'd also like to welcome the latest round of sign up from that BBS and I've no qualms about naming them in a site wide announcement if they start some kind of malicious invasion of our site. I highly recommend you let this drop and agree to disagree... or just agree to shag off...

DeV.

mr_angry

Originally posted by thesecret7
Well what I read was that action would be taken if I didnt conform. This coming from the so called "moderator" who is seemly making little of other people and making numerous insults. Its a case of do what I say and not what I do!!

Im going to have to go trolling to get the required information. I dont know if I have the time to waste today....

On the contrary, I'd put that kind of post firmly in the "asking for it" category. If he really thinks backing up his supposed facts with evidence is a "waste of time", he's on the wrong Board.

Its really about time I got around to making that "Help help I'm being opressed!" Gathering card that I've been thinking about so much lately...

thejollyrodger

Thats pretty oppressive !!!

I just want to put on the Record that at no time did I post the above, it was not my setiments and I had no part in posting. I have recently changed my password on this open access computer and agree totally with DeVore! the secret 7 should be immediately BANNED from this board forever!

I am going to conduct my own personal investigation to get to the heart of this malicaous attack on my credibility!

This is nothing but a pathetic attempt to stir up trouble! At no time was sparky (i presume) ever resort to trolling and I have nothing but the blindest support for the magificant job the moderators are doing on this board, keeping low lifes like the secret 7 off this board!

emmaisbornfree you should mind your own business and stop telling the moderators what to do. You should count yourself lucky that similar action wasnt taken against you and should immediately appologise for your reckless comments.

mr_angry

Ok, WTF is going on? Either this is a wild attempt at "Fr. Jessop" style sarcasm, or the truth. Damned if I know though!

bonkey

I think this topic is no longer serving any useful purpose....so I'm closing it.

I would recommend that if anyone wants to seriously discuss trolling, they take it to a more general forum like Feedback or the Admin forum.

jc