Ireland's first Group Data Scheme

Xian

THEY WILL NOT STAND OR WAIT
Sunday Tribune, 15 February 2004
By Fergus Cassidy

A dynamic group in Mayo is rewriting the script on rural infrastructure by getting broadband for itself.

"The people in these parishes have to depend for lighting on the ordinary kerosene lamp and I know that they are very anxious to avail of the facilities of electricity for lighting if such were made available to them." (Dail debates, 1952, on supply of electricity to Knockmore, Co Mayo)

ELECTRICITY and telephones took their time arriving in Knockmore but a group of people living there are about to turn history on its head and write their own future version. Pleading, waiting and hoping will not feature in it.

Looking out from Lissaniska, it requires a long and wide sweep to take in the beauty of this part of Ireland. Even the grey dullness of the day can't diminish the expanse of Lough Conn and the arch of Nephin mountain. Like most of rural Ireland, Knockmore and the surrounding area has a rich and unique history. But when it comes to technology, Knockmore shares its past with many rural areas.

"We know that that we stand no chance of getting broadband to this area as things stand right now," Paul Cunnane, the coordinator of Knockmore Community Network Society. "That's what motivated us to get our network up and running."

In a few week's time the Knockmore Community Network Society's work will see the fruits of its labour and also put them in the record books as Ireland's first group data scheme - an idea inspired by group water schemes.

The pilot phase is already oversubscribed and the group has plans to increase the bandwidth available when it can.

Internet access group Ireland Offline has energetically committed itself to the project and is determined that many more group data schemes will be set up. It hopes to set up a national coordinating body to provide advice and support for community-owned schemes (see www.IrelandOffline.org)

"Knockmore is a great model for other rural areas," says Christian Cooke, chairman of Ireland Offline, "because they've clearly shown that do-it-yourself community broadband can be done. It's definitely viable."

Using wireless technology avoids the difficulty in cabling such a dispersed area. The network will use industry-standard 802.11b (WiFi) equipment operating in the license-free 2.4GHz spectrum. This may be updated to 5.8GHz as the co-op grows.

Because of the terrain, the project will use 'mesh' technology. Each co-op member can be both a node and a relay point to others.

Co-op membership begins on the purchase of €200 worth of shares. this covers the initial equipment costs in setting up the network, which will be owned entirely by the members.

Members will then pay a monthly subscription charge of €35. The co-op is non-profit and any surplus will be put back into the network.

Rural communities traditionally had to wait a long time for the roll-out of any new technology. Whether it was electricity, telephones or water supply, rural areas were on the end of the line. The excuses for not being able to provide important infrastructure are always the same: no demand, it's not economically viable.

Just as rural people had to wait a long time for the benefits of other new technologies, a similar process is happening with broadband access around the country - despite the government having deemed broadband to be vital to the country's social and economic well-being.

The initiatives proposed so far are flawed precisely because they repeat the mistakes of the past in being based entirely on a 'trigger' approach to roll-out.

As Eircom's site states: "we are also committed to bringing broadband to communities in Ireland with a population of less than 1,500 people. We have set up the Eircom broadband trigger programme".

This trigger will be activated by "entering your telephone number on our site. Eircom will collect and validate all the votes. Once the trigger number is reached for the site, it will be entered into Eircom's broadband build programme".

A site launched last week by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources also contains a 'Vote for Broadband' section.

Knockmore has experienced the ins and outs of this particular cul-de-sac before, and was not going to wait this time.

Back in 1952, a TD for the area spoke in the Dáil and said:"the number of consumers who will guarantee to avail of electricity if it is made available seems a bit high. I am given to understand that it works out at about 85% of the householders of the area...

I think that is a rather high standard and I think it should be reduced to at least 70%... I was given to understand that a canvass was carried out in Knockmore about 12 months ago and the number who promised to avail of the service reached close on 80%, which is very close to the standard laid down."

This time, Knockmore decided to tap into local energy and know-how, and to take upon itself the role of infrastructure provider. "There's a strong community spirit in Knockmore, and we're going to tap into that and bring broadband to the area. It's essential," says Cunnane.

In the past, people were marooned while waiting for utilities, but Knockmore signals electrifying possibilities of a new kind.

KNOCKMORE'S PAST STRUGGLE FOR INFRASTRUCTURE

STEP BACK to July 1952 and the hallowed halls of Dáil Eireann. Patrick Browne, DT, is on his feet during a vote on an industry and commerce bill: "When I moved to report progress on this vote last night, I was dealing with the question of rural electrification in so far as it affected my constituency of North Mayo... The people in these parishes have to depend on the ordinary kerosene lamp and I know they are very anxious to avail of the facilities of electricity for lighting if such were made available to them" (Dail debates, volume 133).

It took another 17 years before the then minister for transport and power, Erskine Childers, told the Dáil that electricity supply would be "extended to all applicants who have accepted terms in County Mayo and the remainder of the country" (Dail debates, volume 221).

It was the same with the telephone. In 1951, O'Hara asked the minister for posts and telegraphs if he would state "when he proposes to install a public telephone service at Knockmore, Ballina". Childers replied: "Knockmore is not scheduled for attention in the call office programme for the current financial year, but its claims will be considered in the preparation of the next year's programme".

The long finger appeared over 20 years later, in 1972, when another Mayo TD asked if the minister was "aware of the urgent need for the provision of a public telephone kiosk at Knockmore". The minister replied: "The call office telephone at Knockmore post office is little used and the provision of a street kiosk there is not contemplated at present." (Dáil debates, volume 264).

TheSonOfBattles

Fair dues to them! I was only yesterday asking a few of the lads in ICDG if any of the boards communities actually ever achieved anything. Now I have my answer, and a happy one it is at that

Any plans for other communities to do it?

bminish

Originally posted by TheSonOfBattles
Any plans for other communities to do it?

That's the whole Idea and also one of the reasons that the whole project is being done under a Creative Commons style licence, this way groups can benefit from each other's experiences.

There is some more information Here

Affordable backhaul remains a key problem in many areas.

.Brendan

TheSonOfBattles

Hmm, my question seems to have been misunderstood. I know that the part of the point was that other communities would be able to follow in their footsteps. What I wanted to know is, is there any other communities currently planning to do it? Or is it just them at the moment?

bminish

Originally posted by TheSonOfBattles
is there any other communities currently planning to do it? Or is it just them at the moment?

I am aware of 3 that are watching with extreme interest. there are also a couple of others who are interested but will have difficulty buying affordable backahaul in the near future.

.Brendan

thegills

What are these guys doing for backhaul and how do they pay for it?

thegills

oscarBravo

Originally posted by thegills
What are these guys doing for backhaul and how do they pay for it?

For the pilot phase, business-grade (2Mbit) ADSL. In the longer term, we're hoping to get something useful via the Ballina MAN.

thegills

oscarbravo, as you seem to be in the loop perhaps you can tell me;

Where can I get some more detailed on this project
Is 2Mb enough if it will be split between a number of companies?
How far are you from the Ballina MAN?
Have you asked them for a fibre connection?

thegills

Xian

Originally posted by thegills
oscarbravo, as you seem to be in the loop perhaps you can tell me;

Where can I get some more detailed on this project
Is 2Mb enough if it will be split between a number of companies?
How far are you from the Ballina MAN?
Have you asked them for a fibre connection?

In order to take the wieght off the coordinators of the project (hey, they've got a network to run!) we're trying to direct all requests for info through us.

Drop me a line at chairman@irelandoffline.org.

bkehoe

Its good to hear of yet another community availing of wireless technology to bring broadband to their location, but out of interest, whats the difference between this and what we've been doing at Irishwan for almost 3 years now - i.e. whats so different that ioffl is making such a big deal of this and did basically nothing with us? I'm also curious as to why ioffl is intending on copying what we're doing and setting up a central site to offer advice, support and coordination between these communities?

BigEejit

Originally posted by bminish
Affordable backhaul remains a key problem in many areas.

I know affordable is important, so is availablilty. South West Kerry has a large population but the nearest fibre is in Killarney ... anything up to 30km's from a few of the larger towns ... in other words, you wont get backhaul no matter how much money you have to spend (there is of course satellite, but to my mind it has as much in common with broadband as a carrier pigeon has with a telephone call) ...

But if you look closely down there (South West Kerry) you will see that €ircom has plenty of microwave dishes, why cant they supply broadband using those, I'm sure I read somewhere that they can transmit/receive up to 100mbit with them. (when I say supply broadband I mean get a 2mbit link into the exchange using microwave and then just use standard dslams for (R)ADSL to the local community, same ratio of users to backhaul as in a fibre connected exchange)


BTW, they have a 2 way satellite system working in Caherciveen ... I found ildana (who apparently set up the Caherciveen wlan) looking to sell the same equipment to other communities ...
Cost of setting up is around €6000 (-$1500 if you dont want radius authentication) .. dunno what the satellite link costs monthly ... they are of course delighted with the service (because its free at the moment, and they know they wont get anything else) ... but with 2 way satellite you have 500ms+ pings ... so (proper) videoconferencing is out, so is gaming and any other activity that requires low latency ....

spongebob

Originally posted by bkehoe
Its good to hear of yet another community availing of wireless technology to bring broadband to their location, but out of interest, whats the difference between this and what we've been doing at Irishwan for almost 3 years now - i.e. whats so different that ioffl is making such a big deal of this and did basically nothing with us? I'm also curious as to why ioffl is intending on copying what we're doing and setting up a central site to offer advice, support and coordination between these communities?

Simple.

The formal structure ( a recognised co-op) is setup early.

There are no government funds for ad-hoc organisations but there are a number of funding sources for a co-op including government, eu , local industries and then the bank manager when the spreadsheet looks a lot healthier.

Nor will any tax relief for the connection or the rental be available to ad-hoc systems.

Nor can an ad-hoc entity get a licence in order to apply for protected licenced spectrum.

Irishwan should consider running their core networks along these lines with the more ad-hoc networks along the edge as now.

It could (should probably) come to pass that the initial networks will consolidate into a county wide meta entity over time, again Irishwan could help.

M

bkehoe

The Dublinwan has done just that, but the rest of us prefer our open uncommercialised structure. Irishwan itself will never be any kind of formal organisation - it is the site for encouraging non-profit community networks to set up and coordinate with each other in whatever way they please. We've built up huge networks covering several counties without government funding, all by the hard work of the members, and havent got any recognition from ioffl...

spongebob

Brendan. I have personally given you 29 Plugs on Boards alone and never a critical word said or thanks received (or expected).

I reached the conclusion long ago that a Heavier Duty organisational model was needed to provide widespread bandwidth and to get government backing....which will require funding and may benefit from tax reliefs in future .... and have said so privately to Irishwan members in PM's when asked.

I honestly believe that these organisational models are not in the least incompatible .

M

daveharlowe

Hi,

I don't post often in this forum, but I have always lurked in here.

I would just like to add my wish of good luck to those in Knockmore doing this, I don't fully understand how it works (IE the Co-op & Wireless networking) but I know from the experiences we have had in Limerick/Clare area that it sure is a lot of fun (and hard work) to get it all working and keep it working.

I don't (yet) know enough about how a co-op works, but I know that when we loose an important node (for whatever reason) it can take a while for the network to recover.

What type of software are you using on your wireless nodes?

Would you consider using http://www.me2000.net/ ?
[My favourite wireless node on a compact flash]

Again, well done all involved.

regards,
Dave

http://www.midwestwan.org/

bkehoe

I'm referring to ioffl, not you personally. Maybe if ioffl had decided to help 3 years ago, we would be in a different position now, but they didnt...
We're more than willing and would be delighted to work with new community groups that are non-profit, and share our extensive knowledge and experiences with wireless networking with them.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by bkehoe
We're more than willing and would be delighted to work with new community groups that are non-profit, and share our extensive knowledge and experiences with wireless networking with them.

I'm sure all help of this type will be greatly appreciated.

iwb

Brendan,
That is a very generous offer and i'm sure you will get takers. I don't want to get between you and IrelandOffline but as a member and contributor to the board here, I can say for sure that I became aware of the movement through IOFFL and gathered through here that there is a great deal of respect for the work your organisation has done over the past few years.
Looking at it a little differently, you are clear on how open you want your concept to be. Not all communities will want to get as involved as you guys do. There are places that would like to have the bandwidth but don't have the resources (even with your help) to get it easily. What I believe Xian intends to offer is a level of support that comes from a full time organisation dedicated to doing this. That is the day job in other words.
I believe as Muck does that there will be areas that will be well served by Irishwan but there are also others that might be better served by a dedicated organisation.

Xian

Brendan,

I hope you'll understand that, as I have the deepest respect for the hard work that IrishWAN have put in over the last few years, I'm choosing my words carefully.

IO have indeed publicly credited the work of IrishWAN, most notably at the Joint Committee presentation and in my first interview with the Tribune, both in conjunction with the group data scheme initiative we were proposing.

In time we realized that the structure of IrishWAN didn't permit its evolution into a more formalized entity that would be required to support a broader base of subscribers. To put it simply, IrishWAN connects enthusiasts, while group data schemes connect communities, and connecting communities requires organization, coordination and support that are beyond the capacity of a group that has self-sufficiency as its principal prerequisite.

Suffice it to say that if IrishWAN are the pioneers, the group data schemes are the homesteaders.

Christian

bkehoe

Link is broken - is that where the Dublinwan gave the presentation? Look at the simple things - ioffl never even linked to us for example. I'm not going to go on and on complaining about this - we've accepted that this is the fact of our relationship, but this thread seemed to require some of what's (not) happened to be brought up.

Irishwan connects enthusiasts who in turn connect communities. A great deal of our work is unpublished, so its quite hard to comment on things when you've never even had any contact with people like myself. The actual problem we've encountered is the complete lack of interest in internet & broadband access in most rural areas. As has been previously stated, Irishwan is a central website for coordinating these community networks in terms of ip addressing, and as a central location for help and support. How these networks are run and managed is of no concern to us as long as the networks are non-profit. Organization, coordination and support exists in most of the regional networks - sure none of them have call centers or employees, but what do you expect?!? In essence, IOFFL is now copying what we've already established, which is only going to create confusion among the general public. Working against each other is the last thing I want to see happening, but things are heading in that direction if the level of communication between our two groups that has been seen in the past continues.

spongebob

Quick Q Brendan.

If I asked you fo a 10. class c for a GDS what would the response be ?

M

bkehoe

If it were to be affiliated with Irishwan, i.e. non-profit, had a link to irishwan, irishwan links to it, offers free hosting and message board, and ip range could be 10.15.x.x.

spongebob

A co-op should run as a non loss making entity and must recycle all surpluses back to its members who own it, is that sufficiently 'non-profit' making for you ?

The logic behind having one national number assignment authority (yours) is to ensure routing and introperability is very strong.

so if I ask for the class c and am a recognised GDS and am not affilated as such then what ?

M

bminish

Originally posted by daveharlowe
Hi,

I don't (yet) know enough about how a co-op works, but I know that when we loose an important node (for whatever reason) it can take a while for the network to recover.

What type of software are you using on your wireless nodes?

In the knockmore project, apart from 1 point to point link we will be using locustworld mesh software
Locustworld in conjunction with with some careful radio planning.
Why mesh?
Because it works, offers redundant rooting, avoids the need for high sites, encrypts traffic, Does mac / radius authentication, manages bandwidth reasonably well, can do VPN where needed and provides us with the option to build our own meshboxes.

Since a meshbox is simply a 'little pc' running a version of Linux with the mesh software on top it's not locking us into a single proprietary solution, for example installing ME2000 on some boxes where this better suits our needs is perfectly possible.

The other thing to bear in mind is this particular solution is not necessarily the solution for all other groups, conventional Point to Multi-point or even community laid fibre may suit others better*. Ideally the GBS should use what fits the local needs best and do so in an open environment so that everyone benefits from the shared experiences


.Brendan

* at around 1 Euro per m laying some fibre may make a lot of sense in some areas

bkehoe

Originally posted by Muck
A co-op should run as a non loss making entity and must recycle all surpluses back to its members who own it, is that sufficiently 'non-profit' making for you ?

The logic behind having one national number assignment authority (yours) is to ensure routing and introperability is very strong.

so if I ask for the class c and am a recognised GDS and am not affilated as such then what ?

M

If its like the Knockmore one then thats exactly what fits the description. If it were a case where the members were keeping any money earned for themselves and not putting it back into the network, then that wouldnt qualify.

Well, hard to say. If there was any possibility that the network would be linked with Irishwan (which I would hope would be possible with many in future), we've nothing to loose by setting aside say half the ranges for use by GDS, though I'd be expecting ioffl to be willing to work with rather than against each other.

De Rebel

Originally posted by bkehoe
Its good to hear of yet another community availing of wireless technology to bring broadband to their location, but out of interest, whats the difference between this and what we've been doing at Irishwan for almost 3 years now - i.e. whats so different that ioffl is making such a big deal of this and did basically nothing with us? I'm also curious as to why ioffl is intending on copying what we're doing and setting up a central site to offer advice, support and coordination between these communities?

That’s a good question. IOFFL is not in competition with anybody, apart perhaps from the dis-information departments of certain Telcos.

IOFFL set out with a broad agenda, to get ireland on-line. For a voluntary group, with little in the way of resource, it appears to have been spectacularly successful. (Whether IOFFL's efforts and the achievement of its objectives are actually connected or just coincidence is debatable, but the point is that a significant part of its objectives have been achieved)

Flat Rate.......... DONE
RADSL........... DONE
Competition in the marketplace............. DONE
Wide(ish) spread DSL deployment......... DONE
Introduction of Triggers.................... DONE
Affordable..........................DONE (within the limits of reasonable expectation)
And most importantly.......
Getting broadband on the national agenda............. DONE

Under the leadership of its previous Chairmen, IOFFL has achieved a lot. At the start of his term, the current Chairman took a very strong line, identifying one remaining issue before IOFFL packs its bags and heads for the hills. Wireless. For two reasons... (a) an additional layer of competition (b) because it reaches places that no other technology can go. Xian, with a little help, has forged the "Group Data Scheme" philosophy and publicised it, and with spectacular success. So much so that the DCMNR are now on board.

IOFFL are very different to Irishwan. IOFFL are first and foremost a pressure group. But like any organisation that is dedicated to achieving its objectives it must be flexible. Now that there is a chance of affordable/available backhaul, it is necessary to take some action to break the impasse on local delivery. This is the reason for the push on the Group Data Scheme.

Please do not view IOFFL as a threat. IOFFL's founding objective is to become redundant. And with a one last push, we may get there.

spongebob

Originally posted by bkehoe
If its like the Knockmore one then thats exactly what fits the description. If it were a case where the members were keeping any money earned for themselves and not putting it back into the network, then that wouldnt qualify.

Well, hard to say. If there was any possibility that the network would be linked with Irishwan (which I would hope would be possible with many in future), we've nothing to loose by setting aside say half the ranges for use by GDS, though I'd be expecting ioffl to be willing to work with rather than against each other.

No. A surplus must be reinvested in the network (or co-invested along with a peer) or redistributed to all members in the form of service rebates ......... nor should the level of recurring charges be set at a level that 'guarantees' a ridiculous surplus on normal activity.

M

bkehoe

Its not that I/we (cant speak for everyone here) view ioffl's new initiative as a threat, but that it is stupid that there should be 2 groups trying to do the same thing and not a bit of coordination, cooperation or even communication between them.

robfitz

I've been involved with IrishWAN and DublinWAN for about two years now. During this time I've had the opportunity to promote IrishWAN at a number of events this included the Dáil presentation last summer.

IrishWAN Presentation to Dáil sub-Committee http://www.irishwan.org/board/showthread.php?t=1038.

IOFFL to make presentation to Dáil sub committee on communications. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98901.

Christian, Dave and myself spent a good few hours after our presentations in the pub in our suits discussing our plans for world domination or cheap broadband internet access for everybody, which ever was easier.

Because of these discussion I got roped into helping out the IOFFL committee with technical issues related to wireless technology (as if I'm an expert or something ). This involved attending a number of meetings and following mailing list, about GDS. I haven't done much as I hoped but I have raised my point-of-view about the running of such schemes and on what DublinWAN and IrishWAN are doing.

The IOFFL website defines GDS as:

http://irelandoffline.org/home/staticpages/index.php?page=20040214202947198

A Group Data Scheme is a community-owned, community-run network for the provision of Internet access and Local Area Network applications.

I've defined IrishWAN as:

http://www.irishwan.org/board/showthread.php?t=1038

IrishWAN is a grass-roots organization dedicated to the promotion and creation of Wide Area Network's (WAN's) throughout the island of Ireland. With the ultimate goal of linking all of these WAN's together to form one large island wide area network infrastructure.

This organization is made up of individuals who believe in the the idea of building a community around an open access, community owned and community run network infrastructure.

http://www.irishwan.org/board/showthread.php?t=1384

What is IrishWAN?
* IrishWAN is a grass-roots organization dedicated to the promotion and creation of Wide Area Network’s through Ireland
* With the ultimate goal of linking all these WAN’s together to form one large island wide area network infrastructure
* This organization is made up of individuals who believe in the idea of building a community around an
o Open access
o Community owned
o Community run network

One definition promotes the Internet and another promotes the network itself. Not much of a difference.

The potential conflict would seem to be due to lack of communication between the two groups. I guess that could be my fault for not passing on the information I've gartered, oh well flame away.

It's not a competition, the two groups better be able to resolve there differences and work together, or nobody wins.

Robert Fitzsimons
DublinWAN Chairperson


P.S. IrishWAN history question, didn't IrishWAN form as an offshoot from a discussion on the IOFFL forum?

Moriarty

Originally posted by robfitz
P.S. IrishWAN history question, didn't IrishWAN form as an offshoot from a discussion on the IOFFL forum?

IOFFL or the wireless/mobiles forum, i cant remember which exactly. Somewhere around here anyway

thegills

* at around 1 Euro per m laying some fibre may make a lot of sense in some areas

This is no where near the cost of laying fibre. A duct network will cost anywhere between €30 and €150 per m depending on the terrain (verge, carriageway) and the number of ducts , sub-ducts etc. Look at the MAN projects for example; €12M for about 50Km which equates to €240/m

thegills

spongebob

The Country Version of it would be cheaper, stuff the fibre into a 50mm cross section Black Wavin Pipe and bury about the length of a spade below the surface with no trenching or ducting as such.

M

bkehoe

Irishwan started in a new thread in the ioffl forum but the thread was moved to the wireless forum.

bminish

Originally posted by thegills
This is no where near the cost of laying fibre. A duct network will cost anywhere between €30 and €150 per m depending on the terrain (verge, carriageway) and the number of ducts , sub-ducts etc. Look at the MAN projects for example; €12M for about 50Km which equates to €240/m

thegills

I think the 19 MAN projects must be longer than 50 Km in total since the segment between Ballina and Kiltimagh is about 33 km on it's own (anyone know if it goes via Foxford or Swinford? )

I didn't include the cost of Ducting etc in my Figure of 1 Euro / M since there are many other cheaper ways to lay fibre when the community wants to do it as it's own project, especially when the houses are close together.

not to mention cheaper commercial methods of laying fiber such as slit laying See here

.Brendan

iwb

Brendan,
To the best of my knowledge, there is no link between Ballina and Kiltimagh, surprisingly enough. It isn't shown on the maps and was never mentioned.
My guess is that gills is talking about the Limerick MAN only and his pricing is indicative of real costs for a robust deployment. His average figure is skewed somewhat by the cost of co-location space and management overhead also.
As for your €1/m cost, that is barely the cost (if even) of a two strand indoor fibre. It is somewhat misleading to quote it as for any form of installation the cable costs are usually a fairly small percentage of the total cost. All the more so for outside plant installs.
There are many ways to install fibre, but they basically come down to aerial or buried. Aerial is cheaper but less secure usually. There are many ways to bury the cable also and some very innovative ones. In town though, your options are somewhat limited and a large portion of the cost is for rights of way and permits to the council.
i still think bog standard wired ethernet in small clumps of premises backhauled to a node is a viable option. Use Cat 6 and keep within 90m rule. Use radio, fibre or FSO for the backhaul to the town node. A hybrid solution that could be migrated to all fibre over time, as streets are dug up and duct can be put in cheaply.
New Ross dug up every footpath in the downtown area a few months ago. It was a great opportunity to put down a cheap empty duct. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't do that. With a duct in place, it would be quite inexpensive to lay the fibre anthough once you take in labour, termination and testing, not to mention building entrance issues, it becomes relatively expensive.