wakes up 5am most nights

souter

Hi,
looking for some suggestions here.
Our 10 month boy is generally pretty good (actually very good) - goes down to sleep c. 7pm, generally has a top up bottle c.10 then sleeps through to 7am. Except more often than not he wakes around 5am. Doesn't appear to be hunger as he'll sometimes take some more bottle or sometimes not. More like he has a nightmare or something as a bit of soothing will put him back to sleep fairly quick.

We adopted him from a Russian orphanage in November, so we're prepared for various traumas/issues, but like I mentioned he's pretty good other than this relatively trivial habit.

Anyone have experience of this sort of behaviour (adopted or not)?

Thanks,
John

Sleipnir

still in your room or in his own?

Beruthiel

if he is still in your room, move him to his own
either way, try to ignore his cries for a few weeks and sees what happens, if he cries too much and you feel you must go into him, do, but don't take him out of bed,
waking up can become a habit and if you encourage it, then it will just continue.

I wouldn't worry too much about any issues because he was in an orphanage, at his age I doubt there will be much he will remember

either way, it's no biggie - when I put my daughter from the cot to a bed (18 months) she was up every night for two weeks, I just marched her right back into bed straight away, it just takes training which you have to stick at if you want an easy life and a kid who does as they're told.
good luck

Sleipnir

Yeah I was going to say it may just be a habit.
Our chap used to do this when he was in our room but one night we didn't react at all and he just went back to sleep after a while. Did this for two nights and he stopped doing it.
Once they see you as well, it makes them 'want' even more so moving him into his own room might sort it out.

jt

I'd agree with the first response.

If the child is in your room move him out.
If you use an intercom-yokey turn it off.

He sounds like a grand little fellow, waking for a short spell and going back to sleep with encouragement. They do develop habits very quickly so if it doesn't suit ye to get up that early every morning don't let this one develop.

We have five children now and they all had similar early morning spells which we never responded too - they were all just in the next room at 10 months, one was noisier than the others at that age so we moved him further away for a short spell. We didn't neglect him, nor were we too harsh, he is still as full of beans and spirit as he was as a baby.

I guess we'd often tune in for the early cries, if they were crying but it was your standard (get me up I'm awake) cry we would not react, but if the pitch was different or they were ill (cold, higher temp etc) we would go in to them.

Enjoy.

Yavvy

if he is still in your room, move him to his own

Why ? do you want to punish him for being awake ?
or is it that godforbid he should need his parents ?

Its not right...." oh the baby wakes up at 5 and cries...So we put him in a room on his own so he can cry alone "

try to ignore his cries for a few weeks

Why in the name of god would any parent ignore their childs cry ? is it more punishment your after here ?
Dont you think ignoring a cry defeats the purpose of crying ?

waking up can become a habit

I should hope so

if you encourage it, then it will just continue.

how ? how do they encourage ? ack...if the baby needs to wake up he will, if he needs his parents he will call out.

why not take him into your bed or put him beside your bed, if he wakes you can reassure him everything is fine and its still sleep time and if he need attention you will be there to give it, what ever it may be.. food, change, a kiss...

I wouldn't worry too much about any issues because he was in an orphanage, at his age I doubt there will be much he will remember

Oh I dont know about that, trauma can manifest in many ways ...and levels very few of us can understand ..IMO

Please check this website and also they have an excellent book on child sleep. I only ask before you start ordering your child to sleep and forcing him to cry alone have an open mind and read this

site here

Yavvy

Beware of sleep trainers. Ever since parenting books found their way into the nursery, sleep trainers have touted magic formulas promising to get babies to sleep through the night – for a price and at a risk. Most of these sleep-training techniques are just variations of the old cry-it-out method. And technology has found its way into nighttime babycare by providing tired parents with a variety of sleep-inducing gadgets designed to lull a baby off to sleep alone in her crib: oscillating cradles, crib vibrators that mimic a car ride, and teddy bears that "breathe." All promise to fill in for parents on night duty. Be discerning about using someone else's method to get your baby to sleep. Before trying any sleep-inducing program, you be the judge. Run these schemes through your inner sensitivity before trying them on your baby, especially if they involve leaving your baby alone to cry. Does this advice sound sensible? Does it fit your baby's temperament? Does it feel right to you?

If your current daytime or nighttime routine is not working for you, think about what changes you can make in yourself and your lifestyle that will make it easier for you to meet your baby's needs. This is a better approach than immediately trying to change your baby. After all, you can control your own reactions to a situation. You can't control how your baby reacts. Use discernment about advice that promises a sleep-through-the-night more convenient baby, as these programs involve the risk of creating a distance between you and your baby and undermining the mutual trust between parent and child. On the surface, baby training sounds so liberating, but it's a short-term gain for a long-term loss. You lose the opportunity to get to know and become an expert in your baby. Baby loses the opportunity to build trust in his caregiving environment. You cease to value your own biological cues, your judgment, and instead follow the message of someone who has no biological attachment, nor investment, in your infant.

Especially in the first six months, avoid sleep trainers who advise you to let your baby "cry-it-out." Only you can know what "it" is and how to respond appropriately to your baby. Using the rigid, insensitive "let-him-cry-it-out" method has several problems. First, it will undermine the trust your baby has for nighttime comfort. Second, it will prevent you from working at a style of nighttime parenting until you find the one that works best for you and your family and third, it may keep you and your doctor from uncovering hidden medical causes of nightwaking. Nightfeedings are normal; frequent, painful nightwaking is not. (See related lessons: Hidden Medical Causes of Nightwaking, Letting baby "cry it out" yes, no?, and 4 Possible Hidden Causes of Colic.

Sleipnir

Why ? do you want to punish him for being awake ?

There comes a time in every human's life where they must move out of their parents room and into their own. When that should happen is up to each individual parent.
Obviously they will still wake up and the parent will have to go to them. The only difference being a partition with doors in it separating the two.
How is putting a child into their own room 'punishment'?
Have we all been 'punished' then?
What age would be a good age? 3? 5? 10?

Why in the name of god would any parent ignore their childs cry ? is it more punishment your after here ?

Babies need to learn how to go to sleep on their own.
You can (and should) console them but they need to know that they can go to sleep without a bottle and without the need for their parents to go to sleep with them.
A bottle everytime they wake is bad habit, they may be hungry but then again they may just seek the 'comfort' of a bottle and a warm parent. In which case they are then being overfed. They do not require a full stomach 24x7.

They may just 'wake up' for no reason at all. They moved and then woke up and don't know how to go back to sleep because they have no experience of going to sleep on their own.
They then scream for their parents because this is how they go to sleep, with a bottle, lying on their parents. If they know of no other way to go to sleep then this is what they will expect to happen.

souter

Thanks for the replies. He's in his own room, has been since the start. Don't generally pick him, just rub his back and mumble till he drops off again. Unless he's wound himself up be crying for too long in which we'll case pick him up till he calms down a bit then back rub him to sleep.
Thing is, because his room is next to ours, and because he can be calmed pretty quickly, it's less disruptive for ourselves to resettle him than let him cry it out, which takes 5-10 minutes.

pace Alany, I don't have a problem with letting him cry it out (I'm a bit of a callous b****d all told), so I guess we'll try that for a bit.

John

jt

good conclusion souter

Beruthiel

Originally posted by Alany
Why ? do you want to punish him for being awake ?

huh? how is it punishing a child to have them in their own room? parents need their sleep too and I well remember what it's like to be sleep deprived, kids form habits and if encouraged in said habit it can result in it continuing for some time, you don't think it's a good thing to give a child boundries?

or is it that godforbid he should need his parents ?

24/7?

Its not right...." oh the baby wakes up at 5 and cries...So we put him in a room on his own so he can cry alone "

there is a big difference between crying for attention and crying because there is something wrong, every parent knows the difference

why not take him into your bed or put him beside your bed

I personally would never do that, it's habit forming and will take you ages to train the child into getting used to eventually sleeping on their own, you are making it harder on them in the long run

perhaps I did not mollycoddle my child the way you suggest above, but it worked for me and she was the type of kid who needed a certain amount of boundaries which she loved to push on a regular basis, if I hadn’t put them there she would have been a nightmare, you make it sound like I dragged her up :rolleyes:

K2

Alany, it can be dangerous for a baby to be in a bed with two adults, the extra temperature can actually kill the child. There was a case in Mayo last year where a young baby died from such a cause, there were three kids in the bed with the parents. I don't think this is too uncommon, I have friends who would have shared their bed with both their children - in their case, and I suspect most, the parents are taking the easy way out. It only takes a few nights to teach your child that they sleep in their own bed, in their own room. My own child went into his own room at three months old. And when my next one arrives in 8 weeks time, he / she will go the same route, moses basket til June then their own cot, in their own room.

Yavvy

Firstly, I would just like to wish Scouter luck with the baby, Im sure your way is fine. and Im sure hes a happy baby... I didnt mean to sound like I was commenting on your parenting style. but the website I linked to could still be very helpful to ya


quote:

---

I'm a bit of a callous b****d all told

---

I doubt it... otherwise you wouldn't go to the trouble of consulting peers, Ill bet your an excellent parent.


Sleipnir
Yes there does come a time when every child must leave the parents bedroom.... do you really think that time is when a child must cry its self to sleep ? buy absolutely right it depends on the parents and the child...its going to be different for everyone
I merely suggested that moving the baby because he is waking was not the best idea...wouldn't it make more sense to do this when the child was sleeping through the night ? I also suggested if he was having difficult being alone then the answer might be to bring him back into the parents room.
I do believe that a lot of children have been punished. including my self...letting a child "cry it out" doesn't teach him its ok to sleep alone...it teaches him not to trust and that his cries go unanswered.

I really don't understand all your comments about giving babies bottles as my wife breast feeds and its pretty much impossible to over feed a breast fed baby as they self regulate eachother. But I gather your prepared to let a child go hungry in the hope you will stop what you consider to be a bad habit ?
There are soooo many ways to help your baby sleep alone without letting them cry it out and without loosing their trust.... Personally I would exhaust every option before letting any child cry

Beruthiel
I think its great that a child can have his own room and its good for parents too... but not if you have to let the child cry its self to sleep. and yes a child should have access to his parents 24/7... western culture is so dammed lazy when it comes to babies. sure parents deserve time alone but not an the expense of an upset child. Parents can have time to themselves when the baby is peacefully asleep. or if you bottle-feed/express then you can look at babysitters ...
There is difference between babies cries, as a parent I can tell between most of them and my wife can tell between all of them but do you think its ok to ignore some cries... Im talking about babies here, they cry when they need you. when a parent responds to babies cries the baby learns trust.. the baby learns that his parents are there when he needs them...
Letting a baby cry it out decreases trust and increasing crying .... there is oodles of proof behind this, happy to provide it if your interested at all

Im sorry if I make it sound like im attacking your parent style.. its so difficult for me t0 offer advice about parenting without sounding like a preacher. in fact I find it worse for me as I have issues with the "popular" style of parenting in Ireland / Uk
and tend to go against the flow.

I know .. each parent ( most of em) will know what best for their baby... but like most parents im adement about my style. Sorry for sounding so aggressive .


Finally K2

You are so misinformed and full of it I hardly know where to begin
it can be dangerous for a baby to be in a bed with two adults
Your absolutely wrong about that... see the attachment parenting thread for oodles of backup proof and let me know if you need more ... cause I have it.

the extra temperature can actually kill the child
no that's the soft of scare mongering I hate about this country. please check your facts before you make these sort of comments. utter bull.

You couldn't be more wrong about sharing a bed with your child ...even if you tried making stuff up. If you want to get into a debate about bed sharing... I have alot ( maybe too much ) to say on that issue.

souter

I suppose the real nub of the my question was that we've been through understandable sleepless nights e.g. first arrival, teething, fever, over tiredness, etc and thought we'd got a nice little routine going - then he starts waking in no great discomfort, and I was more curious than worried.
Alany's askdrsears.com site offers some interesting ideas about developmental processes which I found reassuring, I guess the lesson is that a baby's habits are constantly changing and you're wasting time thinking "Why isn't he perfect like he used to be?".
But he is still perfect,so we'll see how tonight goes. My wife is the light sleeper, but I'm the one with the "hand of sleep"*, so it'll be a contest between the three of us.

*A back massage/mind-meld/battle of wills where the contest is between a bewildered infant who doesn't know what he wants vs. a supposedly grown adult who _knows_ the child wants and needs to sleep. A bit of sleep deprivation helps achieve a zen state, but now and again the little rascal will penetrate this, you get impatient and have to start all over again**

(**but done in a loving, nurturing way - honestly, I'm not the competitive dad from hell ).

Souter

Yavvy

good luck with it mate... I tried the zen like mind meld. didnt happen. The only way i can get my baby to sleep ( my wife is the real expert) when its left to me is by putting her into a baby sling and walking around the house patting the tune from the pink panter on her bum... what ever works eh ?

K2

Alany, why so aggressive, is yours the only opinion that counts! I'm begining to wonder if you actually have any children of your own. Of course its great to have your children in bed with you, I would only question michael jacksons motives on this point, but do you really believe its safe to overheat a young baby? And have you heard of cot deaths???

Please try and take a chill pill, its okay to admit you are wrong

As for children crying, my son suffered severve brain damage at birth, and for 12 months went thro crebal crying. Its constant crying, not because he needs attention, wants to be in bed with mammy and daddy or is hungry, but because he sufferred from massive migraines. I cannot claim to be an expert but I don;t believe I,m so full of it and misinformed as you are quite keen to say. I can only draw from my own personal experience and putting a child into his /her own room at an early age has worked, I've got friends who did not do this and felt it was a mistake.

Maybe you should come down off your high moral horse you are sitting on, stop believing every article your read and spend some time listening to other peoples experiences, compare them to your own and , then try forming your own opinion. You may find less confrontation in your discussions and might have something postive and constructive to add.

Sleipnir

But I gather your prepared to let a child go hungry in the hope you will stop what you consider to be a bad habit ?

Please state where I said this.
Or anything close to it.

I would not let my kid go hungry and maybe you could get off the high horse of championing your own way of doing things at the correct and only way.

Please don't tell me that I am obviously prepared to let my child go hungry as this is blatent presumption on your part and I find it offensive to say the least.

My son used to wake at around 4 or 5am, we would feed him and he would go back to sleep. Then he would be fed again at around 7, 2-3 hours later. That's overfeeding.
We stopped that feeding and he now sleeps through.
Now tell me, is he still 'starving' at 5am?
No he's not.

Babies don't always 'cry when they need you'
Sometimes they just cry.


I presume your child will not go directly from breastfeeding to chicken & chips and that a bottle may be used in the interim period?
When this occurs you will find that it is not 'self-regulating' and that a routine is neccessary.

You are confusing a child waking because they 'want' to be fed as opposed to 'needing' to be fed. There is a distinct difference.
It is quite possible to overfeed a baby with bottles.
As I said before, just because their stomach is not full does not mean they are hungry. I could eat a roast dinner right now but I'm not hungry.

Beruthiel

Originally posted by Alany
Im sorry if I make it sound like im attacking your parent style.. its so difficult for me t0 offer advice about parenting without sounding like a preacher. in fact I find it worse for me as I have issues with the "popular" style of parenting in Ireland / Uk
and tend to go against the flow

I don't know what this 'popular style' is that you're talking about, I just know what worked for me and what didn't, I also know that if you want a child to know where it's at then you must set boundries for their comfort, safety and above all trust in you as a parent, especially when they hit 'the terrible twos'
your 'style' would never have worked for me, especially when she hit 18 months, if I hadn't set boundries then, she would have turned into a spoilt, demanding child who I would have lost control of due to the fact that she has a stubborn, wilful streak to her personality (takes after her mother on that one, and she's still the same now 15 years later)
I might also say that because of my consistency through the years it has worked a treat and still does to this day, and I maybe biased here but she’s one of the nicest teenagers you’re likely to meet (considering what teenagers are like as a whole)
I'm very proud of the way she's turned out

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

bring her to the beer...

Yavvy

K2

Im being so agressive cause Bed sharing is a big issue for me and I have been constantly dissapointed with the level of misinformation and "old wives tale" approach to this exact issue.

I'm begining to wonder if you actually have any children of your own

Click the link at the bottom of my post. Shes 5mths now.

but do you really believe its safe to overheat a young baby? And have you heard of cot deaths???

Where are you getting that notion that bed sharing over heats a baby ? and as for cot deaths and SIDS I and my wife have done more than extencive research into the subject and There is no proof that co- sleeping ( as its usually called) causes SIDS. Yes it can be a factor if you dont do it correctly ( much the same way a car can be a factor in a crash...) Would you like me to point you to some of my research into co sleeping ? ?? Its totally safe. Providing your do it correctly.

Please try and take a chill pill, its okay to admit you are wrong

Im not, you are. You really are. and as a parent I get very "unchilled" when people make up these "facts" without any basis.

As for children crying, my son suffered severve brain damage at birth, and for 12 months went thro crebal crying. Its constant crying, not because he needs attention, wants to be in bed with mammy and daddy or is hungry, but because he sufferred from massive migraines. I cannot claim to be an expert but I don;t believe I,m so full of it and misinformed as you are quite keen to say. I can only draw from my own personal experience and putting a child into his /her own room at an early age has worked, I've got friends who did not do this and felt it was a mistake.

Wow ! I really hope your son is ok. And I havent the first clue what its liek to have a baby with needs like yours. Its obviously compleatly different from the norm and You did what was right for you and your son. Im not and never would call into question you parenting skills. Im just calling into question your opinion on co sleeping

However i do feel you are misinformed when it comes to co sleeping. because peoples knoledge of co cleeping in Ireland is so limited Im very kean and agressive to jump to its defence. I wont apoligise about that, However I am sorry to those that feel im attacking their parenting style. Really what im doing is defending my own.

Maybe you should come down off your high moral horse you are sitting on, stop believing every article your read and spend some time listening to other peoples experiences, compare them to your own and , then try forming your own opinion. You may find less confrontation in your discussions and might have something postive and constructive to add.

Again sorry for sounding so unconstructive ... But I have spent a lot of time listening to peoples experiances, getting ideas, we have been talking to LLL Ireland, scores of other parents in Ireland and around the world and we firmly believe in what we are doing. MY decisions are not based ot articles alone. But advice, trial and error, research and instintcs.

These are my own opinions, and my opinion of you is that your similar to me in defending yourself but perhaps close minded to accept my ideas.

Beruthiel

Originally posted by Mordeth
bring her to the beer...

not a chance

Yavvy

Sleipnir

reading your post again I may have taken it up the wrong way. As I said I dont really understand bottle feeding. How I understud what you were saying was that you shouldnt feed a child when it wakes for fear of forming a habbit, regardless of hunger. I can see now, thats maybe that not what you ment.

MY fault for not really understanding what you were saying.

I apoligise.

Babies don't always 'cry when they need you'

Thats one of the effects we have found with our parenting style. They Dont cry for no reason.They only cry when they need you or when something is bothering them.
So for us there is no such thing as " just crying"

I presume your child will not go directly from breastfeeding to chicken & chips and that a bottle may be used in the interim period?

Funny, And its unlikley she will be near chicken or chips for a long time uet. However at this point in time my wife a re reading up on child nutrition and diets we are also talking to other parents and attending soem parenting conferances. Emily isnt ready for solids yet.. another month we think, but when she is we will be prepared. and I will know more about the whole regulating food intake then !!

You are confusing a child waking because they 'want' to be fed as opposed to 'needing' to be fed. There is a distinct difference.

maybe I am, as I have no experiance with bottles yet. Maybe I shouldnt comment on bottle feeding as the idea of it seems odd to me.

It is quite possible to overfeed a baby with bottles.

Ive heard that... sounds like an interesting subject and one that I hope all bottelfeeding parents take notice of.

As I said before, just because their stomach is not full does not mean they are hungry. I could eat a roast dinner right now but I'm not hungry.

me too, but then Im starvin !



Look sorry about that mistake, I guess I have a ways to go before understanding bottles.

Yavvy

Originally posted by Beruthiel
I don't know what this 'popular style' is that you're talking about, I just know what worked for me and what didn't, I also know that if you want a child to know where it's at then you must set boundries for their comfort, safety and above all trust in you as a parent, especially when they hit 'the terrible twos'
your 'style' would never have worked for me, especially when she hit 18 months, if I hadn't set boundries then, she would have turned into a spoilt, demanding child who I would have lost control of due to the fact that she has a stubborn, wilful streak to her personality (takes after her mother on that one, and she's still the same now 15 years later)
I might also say that because of my consistency through the years it has worked a treat and still does to this day, and I maybe biased here but she’s one of the nicest teenagers you’re likely to meet (considering what teenagers are like as a whole)
I'm very proud of the way she's turned out

The Popular style of parenting in Ireland has some apsects we just dont agree with for example : bottlefeeding, Moving a child into its own room before its ready, letting a child cry, not holding your baby ( using prams, carry cots and various toys instead of holding), not slinging a baby and a few other things but those are the main ones.

We have done countless hours of research into parenting to make sure our child turns into a wonderful person. its the most important goal for my wife and I. I have a lot of respect for parents who have done this already... beacuse we want to reach this goal so much we have choosen attachment parenting ... something thats not practiced in Ireland by many people

What is attachment parenting ? ( taken from attachmentparenting.org)
Attachment is the strong bond of affection and connection that develops between children and their parents or primary caretakers. The quality of this bond influences the child's physical, emotional, and intellectual development. Research conducted throughout the world suggests that securely attached children grow up to trust others and to rely on themselves, developing secure, peaceful, and enduring relationships.

the corner stones to this are
Attachment Parenting is the philosophy and practice of parenting methods that foster strong, healthy emotional bonds between
parents and children. This approach values responsiveness to the infant or child's physical and emotional needs, nurturing their
trust that those needs will be met. Although supported by current research, Attachment Parenting is rooted in the oldest human
traditions of all cultures, and is anything but new.

Preparation for Childbirth
Emotional Responsiveness
Breastfeeding
babywearing/slinging and Nurturing Touch
Sharing Sleep
Avoiding Frequent or Prolonged Separations
Positive Discipline
Maintaining Balance in Family Life


If you have or are in the process of creating an emotionally and socially balanced person then your way works. We are doing everything we can to do the same

K2

Alany
your kid is cute, a real puddin',

I think you should take some more time looking up the area of bed sharing. The experts don't know exactly why it happens but you will increase the risk to your child by sharing a bed, overheating is also a factor but I will conceed that it is not stated that this is due to the extra heat generated by sharing with adults. I've looked at about 6 sites (uk and eire) and they all say the same thing. There is also mention of getting the child into its own cot (not room) by 8 months for other reasons.




Taken from the vhi website:


New Advice on Preventing Cot Death

Sharing a bed with a baby who is less than eight-weeks-old may increase the risk of cot death, according to new research by the Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths (FSID) in the UK.

Previously, it was thought safe to share a bed with your newborn provided you didn’t drink, smoke or take drugs. However, the FSID has now changed its advice to warn all parents against sharing a bed with a very young baby, regardless of whether they are smokers or not.

The research, which focused on 745 cases of cot death, found that a two-week-old baby who shared a bed with non-smoking parents was two-and-a-half times more likely to suffer a cot death than if they slept in a separate cot. At eight weeks they were one and three quarters at more risk.

While the latest study did not look at why sharing a bed can be dangerous, more research to pinpoint the exact reason is planned.

To reduce the risk of cot death:
• Do not smoke during pregnancy or in the same room as a new baby;
• Place your baby on his back to sleep;
• Keep your baby’s feet to the foot of the bed so they cannot wriggle under the covers;
• Don’t let your baby become too hot – the ideal temperature for your baby’s room is between 16 and 20 degrees celsius;
• Do not sleep with with your baby on a sofa or armchair.


_____________________________________________

I still think you are wrong but that's the beauty of the democratic society we live in, we can all have our own opinions. If what you do for your little girl works and is right for ye then who am I to say otherwise, but that works the other way as well.....


as for my little boy, he will always be a 10 mth old (nearly 3 yo now) but like any other kid, all he needs is for his mam and dad to love him, and that's not hard for any parent to do.

Yavvy

There is so muc research to support ( much more than oppose ) co sleeping. not only is it considered perfectly safe ( when practiced correctly ofcourse) but actually increases child development. by the likes of the world health organisation, American SIDS institute and the la leche league (lalecheleague.org). And These are the real experts. These are the people that really explore child development and saftey and the people I trust ( not to name the countless number of parents who practice this we contacted)

I can Provide you with so much proof that co sleeping is not considered a risk
( and in some cases preventitive) that you would have enough reading for a year.
For now you might like to skim through the following links. Its a mixture of medical fact, opinion and research.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/expert/7767.html
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/t102200.asp
http://www.kidsource.com/sids/cause.1.html
http://askdrsears.com/html/7/T071000.asp#T071006
http://www.healthychildcare.org/
http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/co_slepping.html
http://www.parentingweb.com/ap/sleep_health.htm
http://www.naturalchild.com/james_mckenna/bedtime_story.html


As for the VHI, I dont consider them to be medical authorties or experts in anyway
certainly not when it comes to infant development... The results for the recent FSID study are still in dispute and there has also been some issure with brittish and Irish media taking their results out of context. They have also admitted that they didnt take all the vayring factors into account, such as bith age, weight, medical problems, air bourne particles, proximity to dumps, actual time co sleeping, the list goes on and on...

anyway while the report concerns me, I believe it to be flawed to a certain extent and I would put much more faith in the extencive research carried out by the W.H.O and the amewrican SIDS inst. both of them find no link or increased risk between sids and co sleeping.

as you say we have different opinions but I will say this, sleepng with your baby doiesnt mean its going to over heat and there is more evidence that not to support the idea that co sleeping is a better practice than cots.

K2

SO DOES THAT MEAN I'M NOT "SO FULL OF IT" ABSOLUTLY WRONG" & "MISINFORMED"?

FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I DON'T TRUST MEDICAL PEOPLE 100%, BELIEVE EVERYTHING I READ OR HEAR. I TAKE IT ALL IN, DIGEST IT AND USE WHAT I FEEL IN MY HEAD AND HEART IS RIGHT. IF BY ANY CHANCE MY KIDS GROW UP WEIRD BECAUSE I PUT THEM INTO A COT AT AN EARLY AGE SO BE IT, IF IT REDUCES THE CHANCE OF ANYTHING LIKE SIDS. I BELIEVE THAT OVERHEATING IS SUCH A RISK, AND IT APPEARS LOGICAL TO ME THAT SLEEPING WITH A BABY WILL INCREASE THE CHANCE OF THIS HAPPENING, SO A DECISION IS MADE. YOU FEEL OTHERWISE, FINE, BUT MAYBE NEXT TIME YOU MIGHT TAKE A MOMENT OF PAUSE BEFORE GOING ON THE OFFENSIVE.

Yavvy

well ya it kinda does... making sweeping statments like you did

it can be dangerous for a baby to be in a bed with two adults, the extra temperature can actually kill the child.

This is wrong, and I still think its scare mongering.
anyway... you also said that co sleeping is the easy way out. If you did take the time to read some of the links I provided you would see that is quite the opisit.

I understand your opinions and thats fine but you still make sweeping statments about our opinions. And for that I will go on the offencive ..every time. I feel its my right to protect our choices.

Sleipnir

Well this is certainly a sweeping statement

There is so muc research to support ( much more than oppose ) co sleeping

I mean, how can you justify that? Have you counted all the research papers on both sides?
All parents should pay equal attention to both sides of research and not discount professional medical opinion because you believe it is 'scaremongering'
Prudence requires this.
That children die due to co-sleeping is fact, not scaremongering, fact.

Just because you believe it is incorrect doesn't make it so. We had the co-sleeping discussion on another thread and both sides had evidence to support their views.

"it can be dangerous for a baby to be in a bed with two adults"

this is not 'wrong' Alany. This is a fact.
You cannot argue that it is completely 100% safe, the dangers are real & present.
To ignore or discount them is even more so.

Yavvy

I mean, how can you justify that? Have you counted all the research papers on both sides?

dont be silly, I have searched and searched for info on co sleeping and found much more evidence to suggest co sleeping is totally safe ( perhaps safer than a cot in fact) ...

because you believe it is 'scaremongering'

What I believe is scaremongering is claiming that co sleeping is dangerous....cause it isnt, sleeping is dangerous full stop. Its no safer to have a baby in a cot than a parents bed. claiming otherwise, us unproven and because I think irelands attitude to co sleeping needs to change, which is why I hate to see people just sweeping co sleeping aside as dangerous.

That children die due to co-sleeping is fact, not scaremongering, fact.

but they also die due to cots....more so than co sleeping according to research I have seen. nothing is 100% safe, children will always die of sids. Co sleeping my help prevent it. IMO. At the very least I would like co sleeping reconigised as a safe alternititive to cots.

K2

:rolleyes:
so you are right cos its what you believe and therefore everybody else is wrong. Are you 12?

for every link you put up supporting what you believe I could probably find links to argue against it. There's no point in me doing this, look at how you dismiss the vhi information, which puts a hole in your arguement So Big you could drive a truck thro it, simply because you don't agree with it.

You claim I am scaremongering? I believe overheating a baby by bed sharing can kill it, many websites, doctors and parents would agree with this,,,,but you disagree, so I must be wrong:dunno:

I think the quote of the day has to be:
Sleeping is dangerous full stop.

Wow, that sort of news should make the 6.1 news.

Yavvy

whos being agressive now ?

Anyway.. .your not getting my point and im not going to keep on trying to tell it.

what I am saying is that the the evidence about co sleeping increasing the risk of SIDS is wrong. This is my opinion cause I have studied all the facts I could find, I spoke to many parents, tried it woth my own baby and I have come to the conclusion that Co sleeping it totally safe. ( thats a fiarly informed opinion, before you made up your mind did you do the same ?)

so your vhi website doesnt put any hole in my argument.
And listen, I believe im right, This my opinion... therefore people that dont agree with me , I consider to be wrong.
However I do accept you have your own view and you believe me to be wrong. But im not going to change my opinion cause of that.

Anywho I agree to disagree with you and Sleipnir on this issue. And I will continue with the opinion that your very wrong to consider co sleeping to be more dangerous than a cot.

I think the quote of the day has to be:
Sleeping is dangerous full stop.

Every child in the world is at risk of SIDS, I would call that a danger wouldnt you ?
The reason every child is in danger is causes no one knows what causes SIDS. Im doing what I can to make sure it doesnt happen to my little girl.

one last thing.... do you know of 5 medical organisations/parenting groups that disapprove of co sleeping ?


?

K2

do you want some carrots for your horse

Yavvy

Yes please... I also like carrotts...but only when they are cut into nice sticks and are crispy and cool

But I wont be getting down to get them.

foxinsocks

Guys, up at the top of this forum there is a post stating that parenting is an emotive subject, and that you ALL need to remember that just because you believe your way is the right way, that doesnt give you the right to criticise any other parents. SO keep this civil (that doesnt mean just be sarcastic).

Any more personal flaming and there will be bans :ninja:

Fox_in_Socks

josh40

The point here is what's right for both baby and parents, yes, kids have to learn to be independent and sleep in their own rooms but parents have to do what feels right for them.
When my kids were babies, I ran to them everytime they cried, I admit I was neurotic. They are now 14 and 10 and it doesn't seem to have done them any harm.A lot of this really depends on the parents personalities, kids don't remember being 8 months old. They won't thank you because you spend the first 3 years of their lives deprived of sleep!
There are many ways to be good parents, you have to love your kids and put their needs first, that goes on for a lifetime, but you also have to be a happy productive person away from them. That's how to make them happy.
People sweat the small stuff too much. Letting your baby cry for 10 minutes a night because you are dog tired does not make you a bad parent.
One thing I remember though is that my daughter uesd to wake at about 6 every morning when she was 8 or 9 months. The funny thing though is that on the odd morning when she didn't wake up. I used to wake automatically anyway!

Kids change so fast, because he has a regular routine now, doesn't mean it's going to last.

Yavvy

The point here is what's right for both baby and parents,

your dead right, but I have trouble imagining any baby or todler feeling its best to sleep apart from its parents ..unless they smoke and drink and so on ...

kids don't remember being 8 months old

I disagree with this, sure they may not remember events but dont you think the first 8 months have an impact of a childs personality, development, emotional stability, inteligence and so on ?

There are many ways to be good parents, you have to love your kids and put their needs first, that goes on for a lifetime, but you also have to be a happy productive person away from them. That's how to make them happy.

Thats the big challenge... I guess everyone is searching for the best way for them and baby ?

Letting your baby cry for 10 minutes a night because you are dog tired does not make you a bad parent.

Totally agree... some times a child crys, some times you are so tired and havent got the energy to go to their room...maybe they have a cold and there isnt much you can do about it.

Thats one of the reasons letting your child stay in your room is an advantage... they can do their crying and knwo that your still there.

One thing I remember though is that my daughter uesd to wake at about 6 every morning when she was 8 or 9 months. The funny thing though is that on the odd morning when she didn't wake up. I used to wake automatically anyway!

I think thats one of the big challenges to being a parent, you cant ever have a set way of doing things...your always adapting and changing....

But I wouldnt change it for the world

Alan

trilo

about bed sharing.
i am not a parent, im 21 and have some views here on bed sharing, whether they are valied or not its up to you.

i am not opposed to babies sleeping in the bed but it can be hard to break away from this (as my sister has realised).

IMO i wouldnt bedshare if i had a child, saying that i probably would end up doing that for the first few months but only for light naps.

i dont agree with the baby sharing the bed every night. what would happen if the baby rolled of the bed or even if the parent rolled on the child while they were asleep.

all in all this is only my opinion and i aint an expert on the matter.

KoNiT

what would happen if the baby rolled of the bed

You get a heavy "thump" sound or a "thwap" depending on your floor type, followed by an eerie silence & a barely audible “****” from one or both parents. This prompts the baby, if it woke up, to issue a blood-curdling scream, to which both parents reply…”****e”…..

Our fella has fallen out of bed a few times, even his own. I got up in the middle of the night to find him curled into a ball in the middle of his bedroom, poor lad!

As regards the “our bed or not our bed” discussion, our eldest does spend most of his time in ours. Baby no 2 sleeps mostly in the cot

Yavvy

KoNiT That was probally the best answer I have ever heard ...to that particular question ...and jour dead right.

But to answer trilo in another way...your baby will not fall outta bed, you might but trust me parental instincts would never let you indanger a baby like that. And you wouldnt roll over on them either, as a heavy sleeper I had my doubts... but tis true... your own instincts wont let you do it .

Todlers and small children are different..they could fall outta the bed ( theirs or yours) , and the couch and pretty much every where...kids fall over, its an accepted fact. Thankfully kids are made of sterner stuff than us adults and their usually fine , my 4 year old cousin took a head first tumble down some stairs and banged her head off tiles... now she was pretty badly hurt but a fall like that would have killed an adult I would say !


the only draw back I have found with bed sharing is the rude awakenings, I wokr up this morning and my little girl was bashing me in the eye with a plastic zebra... but you know its sooo worth it .

KoNiT

Alny - our Lad's first "free fall" was at 6 months - not quite toddler

Now I would not share a bed with an infant < 3 months, they are quite happy on their own. You'll pull them into the bed when they're older and more demanding. It may have nothing to do with attachment parenting, we just wanted sleep, & when your week after week of pounding the halls all night, you will give in.

Our fella refused to sleep in his cot, he screamed the house down.

Pick him up - he shuts up
Put him in cot - he screams
Lay him on the bed - he sleeps
give him 1/2 hour & put him in cot - he screams again!!.. feck it I want to sleep so we settled him into the bed

Yavvy

eep six months ..you must have got a big fright !

our little girl shows no sign of rolling off the bed yet, she just turned six months..so maybe soon. but then up till now I have had a modified cot beside the bed. Americans call it a co sleeper, i call it " wooden cot with one side removed." Tis a good idea, cause the baby is still in the bed..but you still get most of your sleeping space. having said that...she doesnt use it all that often... sleeps between us most of the time.

trilo

your baby will not fall outta bed, you might but trust me parental instincts would never let you indanger a baby like that. And you wouldnt roll over on them either, as a heavy sleeper I had my doubts... but tis true... your own instincts wont let you do it . Alany


alny your baby has a good chance of falling out of the bed... it happened to my sister, and she is one of the most vigil of mothers.. it does happen... mother instincts or no mother instincts.

in the end, i suppose it is up to the mother or father to make this decision, and take or dispose of any advise that they get on this matter.

my sister had her first baby sleeping with her as a baby, hes three now and he wont get out of the fecin bed..... but he probably will after a while and come to realise that hey its great having my own bed and my own space and sometimes maybe crawl into bed with mam and dad sometimes,, mybe even kick dad out of the bed (lol the oepidal stage)

ohh i crack myslef up sometimes(NOT)... excuse me .
achewwww

K2

I have been accused of being full of it, misinformed and absoluty wrong, yet this article which appeared yesterday only repeats many warnings which can be found by searching the internet. A conversation with your doctor or contacting this organisation:

THE IRISH SUDDEN INFANT DEATH ASSOCIATION

Carmichael House,
4 North Brunswick Street,
Dublin 7
Telephone: (01) 8732711

can also be used to confirm the following:

SOURCE: SKY NEWS/ ENGLISH DEPT OF HEALTH:


WARNING OVER COT DEATH
Parents have been urged not to sleep in the same bed with their babies due to the increased risks of cot death.

The Department of Health has included the advice in a new leaflet after recent research highlighted the dangers of bed-sharing.

In January, The Lancet medical journal warned that bed-sharing could be unsafe for infants in the first eight weeks of life.

The Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths (FSID) immediately updated its advice to alert parents of the risks.

The DoH, working with the charity, has now updated its own message.

The leaflet said the safest place for your baby to sleep is in a cot for the first six months.

The pamphlet is distributed to all maternity units in England.

It also includes existing advice for cutting the risk of cot death such as placing babies on their back to sleep, cutting out smoking and making sure the baby does not get too hot.

Cot death - or Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (Sids) - claims the lives of seven babies a week in the UK.

The Lancet study looked at 745 cot death cases alongside the known risk factors.

The researchers, part of the European Concerted Action on Sids, found that six out of 10 of all cot death cases in Europe could probably be attributed to lying babies on their front or side.



I was aware that sharing a bed with an infant would increase the risk to the child, but I certainly don't know it all. In fact I made the mistake of putting my son in his own room at 3mths old, I will not make that mistake with my 5 week old daughter. And I will never make the mistake of ignoring medical advice and knowingly putting any child at risk of sdis.