EU Accession States and Jobs

emertoff

Ireland and the UK are the only two current EU states that have imposed no restictions on people from the new member states entering the jobs market from May 1. I think this is a mistake and in my view is probably against the wishes of the majority of the population even if most of them are not aware of this situation.
I recognise that Ireland has a historical imperative to provide a welcome and opportunities to those who come here, but our politicians must surely take cognisence of the current economic situation here. The possibility of even a small influx has the potential to drive wages down in a country which still has the highest inflation in the eurozone. You won't hear IBEC and ISME talking about this. Eastern Europeans are among the best educated and highly qualified people in areas such as IT and Science so it's not only minimum wage hotel and catering jobs that I'm talking about.

We need a proper discussion about this in the context of a reasonable and sensible immigration policy that recognises limitations as well as obligations without the immature "racist" stereotyping against anyone who tries to bring up the subject.

Tony Blair was badly caught out today on this during PMQ's and hinted that the UK will also impose some restrictions. What to you think?

mike65

I dont think anyone here has much to worry about. The numbers of unemployed here is very low by historical standards (the household survey puts it at about 85,000 i think).

The demographics also suggest fresh talented workers will be much needed over the next few decades as the 80s "youth" bulge in the Irish population pushes through into middle age. Ppl who are working (whoever they are) and paying taxes are good for Rep of Ireland plc.

I welcome them.

Mike.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by emertoff
Eastern Europeans are among the best educated and highly qualified people in areas such as IT and Science so it's not only minimum wage hotel and catering jobs that I'm talking about.

Then good luck to them, I welcome them. If there aren't jobs, they won't come. So it's not like they are planning to invade our welfare system.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by mike65
I dont think anyone here has much to worry about. The numbers of unemployed here is very low by historical standards (the household survey puts it at about 85,000 i think).

The demographics also suggest fresh talented workers will be much needed over the next few decades as the 80s "youth" bulge in the Irish population pushes through into middle age. Ppl who are working (whoever they are) and paying taxes are good for Rep of Ireland plc.

I welcome them.

Mike.

Luxembourg 2.3%, Holland 2.6%, Austria 4.1%, Denmark 4.2% and Portugal 4.3% all have lower rates in unemployment than Ireland 4.4% but yet none of these countries bar Holland (which is going to grant a few work permits) are going to open up their labour markets. While I think that allowing the free movement of workers is a good thing for the EU, I don't see why the UK and Ireland should have to bear the brunt of the expected new workers. Especially consdering what a difficult time we've got at the moment trying to hold on to the jobs that we've got.

Tommy Vercetti: Who said anything about anyone having to set foot into the country before applying for the job? With what's currently proposed, a worker anywhere in the Union will be able to apply for a job from wherever they're living. Maybe this is my own selfishness talking (I'm in IT) but having people from outside of Ireland applying for already scarce jobs in certain sectors will almost certainly cause unemployment.

I forsee that unscrupulous employers in Ireland will try to encourage the workers of the new entrants to come here and try to pay them less than the current minimum wage.

I agree with free movement of labour is a good thing, I think we need some measures to protect vulnerable sectors like IT and science so we don't end up with even more graduates than the thousands we've got on the scrapheap.

sceptre

Spain have announced that they'll have no restrictions as well AFAIK.

Imposter

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Luxembourg 2.3%, Holland 2.6%, Austria 4.1%, Denmark 4.2% and Portugal 4.3% all have lower rates in unemployment than Ireland 4.4% but yet none of these countries bar Holland (which is going to grant a few work permits) are going to open up their labour markets. While I think that allowing the free movement of workers is a good thing for the EU, I don't see why the UK and Ireland should have to bear the brunt of the expected new workers. Especially consdering what a difficult time we've got at the moment trying to hold on to the jobs that we've got.

These laws are to protect neighbouring and border countries against a mass exodus into those countries. Countries like Ireland and the UK are far enough away to discourage most potential immigrants from coming there. The fact that they cannot leech off the Irish welfare system is another strong deterent.

I forsee that unscrupulous employers in Ireland will try to encourage the workers of the new entrants to come here and try to pay them less than the current minimum wage.

That would be illegal and I could see a backlash from Irish people if such a situation arose. Paying below the going industry rate would be a bigger worry but that is where the government should step in and set up minimum wage structures for various industries to stop this (What I mean is setting a minimum wage for each type of work. For example a cleaner's minimum wage would be say the current national minimum wage whereas a programmers minimum wage would be the national minimum wage plus say 5€ per hour).

TomF

There aren't too many home-grown industries in Ireland, and many of the high-paying jobs here which are supporting the big mortgages which the banks are handing out left and right could evaporate almost overnight if the industries which are here decide to relocate to take advantage of lower labour costs.

bonkey

Originally posted by Imposter
These laws are to protect neighbouring and border countries against a mass exodus into those countries. Countries like Ireland and the UK are far enough away to discourage most potential immigrants from coming there.

What? Portugal is closer to Eastern Europe than Ireland??? I must get a new atlas....clearly mine is hopelessly out of date

The fact that they cannot leech off the Irish welfare system is another strong deterent.

Are you sure they can't? And unless they can leech off the welfare systems of every single one of the nations that has put limits in place, this argument is also somewhat specious.

That would be illegal and I could see a backlash from Irish people if such a situation arose.

Interestingly, I was just reading Reefer Madness (Eric Schlosser) who points out how large the illegal immigrant economy is in the US, and he points out that it is already possibly even larger in the EU. Given this, I wouldn't be too adamant that such practices would not occur in Ireland, or - indeed - that they are not already occurring to some degree.

As for "backlash"....where was it when the government failed to back up its "no capitalising on the Euro switch" changeover? The biggest backlash you'll probably see is a couple of half-hearted protests, followed by plenty of individuals grumbling about how there's nothing we can do and how the government will never do anything, and do on and so forth.

jc

Akrasia

did Eric happen to mention that the American Economy would not survive if the immigrant workforce were not available.

Why do we support the freedom of capital but not the freedom of people to move around the world?
Each dollar has more rights than each person.

Anyway, the people of these accession countries have much more to fear from the wealthy western countries than we have to fear from them. How many features are there in the newspapers and radio shows encouraging irish investors to buy up land in Eastern Europe for investment. The land there is so cheap compared to here, but it is at the market price for Eastern Europeans. the locals could never compete with the purchasing power of western investors. It is not hard to imagine the situation where most of the available land will be bought up by absentee landlords who will develop it in the most profitable way with absolutely no regard to the welfare of the local people.

bonkey

Originally posted by Akrasia
did Eric happen to mention that the American Economy would not survive if the immigrant workforce were not available.

(offtopic, I know, so I won't discuss this further in this thread)

Not quite the stance or direction he is coming from. He points out the history which has led to the current state of affairs, and what government has (and has not) done concerning the issue. He highlights their plight, and points out how much money is being made off them.

If you're interested in discussing teh point further, I suggest we split it out to a seperate topic.

Why do we support the freedom of capital but not the freedom of people to move around the world?
Each dollar has more rights than each person.

Who's we?

Globalists support that model because it allows more money to be made....but I feel we are increasingly seeing that globalisation has become - for teh more developed nations at least - a case of "we can make money off you, but you cannot compete with us" which is becoming increasingly untenable and unaccetable.

I, on the other hand, do not support that model.

jc

Akrasia

me neither, I don't know why i used we.

Imposter

Originally posted by bonkey
What? Portugal is closer to Eastern Europe than Ireland??? I must get a new atlas....clearly mine is hopelessly out of date

I'm sure it wasn't Portugal who decided thiese restrictions were a top priority but seeing as they could they have availed of them.

Are you sure they can't? And unless they can leech off the welfare systems of every single one of the nations that has put limits in place, this argument is also somewhat specious.

You cannot claim unemployment payments in another EU country unless you have been claiming in your home country for a set time (I think it's 6 weeks). Then you can continue to claim it for a limited time. The welfare point is not overly relevant other than to point out that it won't cost the country money should these jobseekers not find jobs here.

utopio

Ireland and the UK?? Why do they have to worry about eastern states. As far as I see it they aren't the nearest countries of them. Here in Germany the ppl are concerned about the new countries too, because Germany is exactly next to them. But is there really a big economic danger for ireland?
I think restictions would be usefull, but I don't think Ireland has to be too afraid.

Imposter

Originally posted by utopio
Ireland and the UK?? Why do they have to worry about eastern states. As far as I see it they aren't the nearest countries of them. Here in Germany the ppl are concerned about the new countries too, because Germany is exactly next to them. But is there really a big economic danger for ireland?
I think restictions would be usefull, but I don't think Ireland has to be too afraid.

Read the first line of this thread:

Ireland and the UK are the only two current EU states that have imposed no restictions on people from the new member states entering the jobs market from May 1.

If people can't work in the other states then there's a good chance they'll try UK and Ireland. We'll have to wait and see whether it puts the economy in danger or not.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Imposter
Countries like Ireland and the UK are far enough away to discourage most potential immigrants from coming there.

What if someone tells them about Ryanair?

The fact that they cannot leech off the Irish welfare system is another strong deterent.

Firstly, non-Irish people who come here to live and work are not "leeches." And secondly, afaik, anybody from an EU country is entitled to the same work, benefits and services as an Irish person. That goes for the EU accession states too.

(What I mean is setting a minimum wage for each type of work. For example a cleaner's minimum wage would be say the current national minimum wage whereas a programmers minimum wage would be the national minimum wage plus say 5€ per hour).

"That would be illegal and I could see a backlash from Irish people if such a situation arose." But if this ridiculous idea were to be considered, should a Cobol programmer get paid more or less than a VB programmer? Join a union or something but don't scapegoat the foreign "leeches" for "taking our jobs" or whatever.

You cannot claim unemployment payments in another EU country unless you have been claiming in your home country for a set time (I think it's 6 weeks). Then you can continue to claim it for a limited time. The welfare point is not overly relevant other than to point out that it won't cost the country money should these jobseekers not find jobs here.

This is all wrong too afaik. If you've been on the dole here for at least 4 weeks, you can transfer your claim (paid by the Irish state) to an EU country and continue to claim for up to 78 days. After which you have to claim from the state you're in. EU citizens ar fully entitled to sign on when they arrive here while they look for work. In fact they're encouraged by the social welfare dept to do so.

Imposter

Originally posted by Redleslie
What if someone tells them about Ryanair?

Unless Ryanair expand and fly further (which they try to avoid as it reduces their profits) then the cost of travel to Ireland or the UK are a lot higher than to neighbouring european countries.

Firstly, non-Irish people who come here to live and work are not "leeches." And secondly, afaik, anybody from an EU country is entitled to the same work, benefits and services as an Irish person. That goes for the EU accession states too.

Leeches might be the wrong word to use but basically what I mean is they cannot come here and intend to live on welfare. They are entitled to same conditions and benifits while working yes.

But if this ridiculous idea were to be considered, should a Cobol programmer get paid more or less than a VB programmer? Join a union or something but don't scapegoat the foreign "leeches" for "taking our jobs" or whatever. [/B]

Why is it ridiculous? It is currently the system in Austria (and I think Germany) and it works very well. People in jobs where specialist training and higher education are required are protected by these laws from people coming in from poorer economies and working for a fraction of the wages. Of course people from these poorer economies can compete for these jobs (if they have visas or proper documentation) and get paid the same rate if successful but issues such as language become a barrier to them which gives the local candidates a slight advantage.

This is all wrong too afaik. If you've been on the dole here for at least 4 weeks, you can transfer your claim (paid by the Irish state) to an EU country and continue to claim for up to 78 days. After which you have to claim from the state you're in. EU citizens ar fully entitled to sign on when they arrive here while they look for work. In fact they're encouraged by the social welfare dept to do so.

My times might be wrong but the first part of what you said is the same as what I said. So how is it "all wrong" :rolleyes: ? As for claiming from the state you're in, maybe they can sign on in Ireland but in many EU countries you cannot just arrive and sign on, again Austria being an example (You need to have worked for a year there before that is possible).

If you can just arrive and sign on it would make you wonder why Ireland did not sign up to these restrictions like the other EU countries.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Imposter
Unless Ryanair expand and fly further (which they try to avoid as it reduces their profits) then the cost of travel to Ireland or the UK are a lot higher than to neighbouring european countries.

So if some Polish leech arrives in France or Italy or whatever, the cost of a flight to Ireland will put him off? Go and have a look at the fares on Ryanair's site. And sure they could always drive and take the ferry.

Leeches might be the wrong word to use but basically what I mean is they cannot come here and intend to live on welfare. They are entitled to same conditions and benifits while working yes.

Are these leeches going to come here to be lazy bastards and live on welfare or are they going to work round the clock for practically nothing and take all the jobs. Which is it? Make up your mind or stop talking bollocks.

Why is it ridiculous? It is currently the system in Austria (and I think Germany) and it works very well. People in jobs where specialist training and higher education are required are protected by these laws from people coming in from poorer economies and working for a fraction of the wages.

If you're talking about unionised labour vs non-unionised labour then I'd agree but I don't think you are.

My times might be wrong but the first part of what you said is the same as what I said.

No it's not.

So how is it "all wrong" :rolleyes: ?

You said "You cannot claim unemployment payments in another EU country unless you have been claiming in your home country for a set time (I think it's 6 weeks). " That is wrong. You also said "The fact that they cannot leech off the Irish welfare system is another strong deterent." That's wrong too. They're as entitled to leech as much as you are.

As for claiming from the state you're in, maybe they can sign on in Ireland but in many EU countries you cannot just arrive and sign on, again Austria being an example (You need to have worked for a year there before that is possible).

I wouldn't pay much attention to Austria tbh, too many unpleasant characters involved. I went to the UK shortly after leaving school, and when I went to apply for some jobs at the jobcentre, they told me I should sign on immediately until I'd found some work. As it happens it only took me 2 days to get work. See? Even the notoriously lazy paddies would rather work than take handouts. I'm not 100% sure about welfare rules in other EU states because every Irish person I know who went to an EU country, went to look for work, not sit on their arses. If they wanted to sit on their arses they would have stayed in Ireland.

bonkey

Originally posted by Redleslie
I wouldn't pay much attention to Austria tbh, too many unpleasant characters involved.

Would you care to explain that remark?

It reads to me like "You've a valid point I can't respond to so I'll just dismiss it with an insult to the country in question".

As it happens it only took me 2 days to get work. See? Even the notoriously lazy paddies would rather work than take handouts.

So you feel you are representative of the entire nation, do you? And given that we're actually discussing the potential for people from other nations to do this, you must also be implying that you are representative of all of the incoming members as well.....

I'm not 100% sure about welfare rules in other EU states

That hasn't stopped you telling someone that their understanding of those rules is wrong, though, nor has it prevented you from basing one of the cores of your argument around how they do work....

Strange that...

jc

Imposter

Originally posted by Redleslie
So if some Polish leech arrives in France or Italy or whatever, the cost of a flight to Ireland will put him off? Go and have a look at the fares on Ryanair's site. And sure they could always drive and take the ferry.

So it'll cost less to get to France and then fly to Ireland than to just get to France?:rolleyes:

Are these leeches going to come here to be lazy bastards and live on welfare or are they going to work round the clock for practically nothing and take all the jobs. Which is it? Make up your mind or stop talking bollocks.

I've no problem if they come to work. I would hope Irish people would stand up to employers if they start getting greedier and forcing Irish people to work for even less money and further reduce whatever standard of living is left. However if a large amount of people arrive in Ireland there could potentially be a large amount who can't get jobs. Then if your statement that that they can claim welfare is true then I think there's a problem and the government should have signed up to the restrictions like the other countries.

If you're talking about unionised labour vs non-unionised labour then I'd agree but I don't think you are.

What I am talking about is unionised.

I said:

"You cannot claim unemployment payments in another EU country unless you have been claiming in your home country for a set time (I think it's 6 weeks).

and you said:

If you've been on the dole here for at least 4 weeks, you can transfer your claim (paid by the Irish state) to an EU country and continue to claim for up to 78 days.

The only difference in what we're both saying is if a person can claim dole here without claiming it at home first. If that is the case i wasn't aware of it. I know for a fact it's not the case in all european countries.

I wouldn't pay much attention to Austria tbh, too many unpleasant characters involved. I went to the UK shortly after leaving school, and when I went to apply for some jobs at the jobcentre, they told me I should sign on immediately until I'd found some work. As it happens it only took me 2 days to get work. See? Even the notoriously lazy paddies would rather work than take handouts. I'm not 100% sure about welfare rules in other EU states because every Irish person I know who went to an EU country, went to look for work, not sit on their arses. If they wanted to sit on their arses they would have stayed in Ireland.

Well that just shows you up then. Too many unpleasant characters compared to what, Ireland, UK and who are these characters exactly? Ireland and UK have always had agreements that are not used throughout the EU.

When I left Ireland I also went to find work. While searching I did try signing on but was told it wasn't possible because of reasons I've partially outlined above. When I found work it wasn't an issue. Imo people should not get handouts if they don't want to work. Similarly people should not be allowed to receive handouts for long periods of time in a foreign country which they've never worked in even if looking for work and especially when they would probably be working if in their home country.

utopio

Originally posted by Imposter
Read the first line of this thread:

If people can't work in the other states then there's a good chance they'll try UK and Ireland. We'll have to wait and see whether it puts the economy in danger or not.

I don't look at it that pessimistical, surely a few ppl will take this chance, but in the former expansion nothing big happened, and I think it won't be different this time.

bonkey

Originally posted by utopio
but in the former expansion nothing big happened

But the former expansion did not involve such a disparity between the incoming members and the existing ones in terms of GDP, average income, etc. etc. Nor did it involve anywhere near as many people.

jc

chill

Are these leeches going to come here to be lazy bastards and live on welfare or are they going to work round the clock for practically nothing and take all the jobs. Which is it? Make up your mind or stop talking bollocks.

An interesting commentary taking into account the millions of Irish that went to England to 'leech' on their welfare system over the last 50 years...

I hope lots of them come to enrich our country and fill the jobs we can't fill and allow our economy to continue growing at the fast pace it is.

Bring them on and we can repay the favour done to us by the UK and America as well as the billions of free cash given to us by the EU over the last couple of decades.

dathi1

But the former expansion did not involve such a disparity between the incoming members and the existing ones in terms of GDP, average income, etc. etc. Nor did it involve anywhere near as many people.

Exactly we're now in a potential post may1st mass influx human logistics problem. There are .5 million Russians waiting to get out of Lithuania for a better life in the west and welfare isn't a problem...the black market is their forte. On top of that you have a host of different ethnic groups living in poor conditions in accession states who would give their left arm to get here REGARDLESS OF WELFARE OR LACK THERE OF.

An interesting commentary taking into account the millions of Irish that went to England to 'leech' on their welfare system over the last 50 years...

This is the type of bullsh.it that we have to put up with from the likes of the labour hack newspapers the Herald and Fine Gale Independent. For some reason because of our hard working past.. we owe ourselves to the rest of the world and can be held to ransom through mass immigration into a country of 4 million with barely enough infrastructure to move people about and house them ...never mind health care etc.

I'm all for proper controlled work permit immigration but our lone stance on "let them all in" regardless of what the rest of Europe does smacks of the usual neo Liberal Corporate greed PD, FF, drive the wages down and let them eat cake syndrome.

I hope I'm wrong...or perhaps we need this kick in the arse logistics nightmare to wake up Irish Joe soap to the realities of uncontrolled immigration...ah sure it'll be all roight...Hold on that's me ffing Job he's taken!!!! wat about me mortgage and de kids?? jazus.

also..here's an interesting perspective by Michael Murray in this weeks Sunday Business Post: HERE

chill

Originally posted by dathi1
This is the type of bullsh.it that we have to put up with from the likes of the labour hack newspapers the Herald and Fine Gale Independent.

Translation: You don't like to be reminded of our own past when trying to frighten people about immigrants coming to our shores.

For some reason because of our hard working past.. we owe ourselves to the rest of the world and can be held to ransom through mass immigration into a country of 4 million with barely enough infrastructure to move people about and house them ...never mind health care etc.

More nonsensical hyperbole trying to spread the myth of mass immigration. There's hasn't been such mass immigration here in the past and there won't be in the future. We do however need lots of immigrants in this country to help us keep our economy buoyant and successful.. I hope they do come here in numbers.

I'm all for proper controlled work permit immigration but our lone stance on "let them all in" regardless of what the rest of Europe does smacks of the usual neo Liberal Corporate greed PD, FF, drive the wages down and let them eat cake syndrome.

And your exagerated hype smacks of National Front politics.

I hope I'm wrong...or perhaps we need this kick in the arse logistics nightmare to wake up Irish Joe soap to the realities of uncontrolled immigration...ah sure it'll be all roight...Hold on that's me ffing Job he's taken!!!! wat about me mortgage and de kids?? jazus.

That's about the level you are arguing at.

Thankfully the vast majority of Irish people do not share your antipathy to foreigners. They see how hard they work when they come here and how willing they are to take the jobs that Irish people won't take. They see the echoes of our own past when we sent our own sons and daughters to countries far away to try to better themselves.
They also see how it is enriching our society to have so many different cultures in our country and an end to our old homogenistic society.