The Law On Bouncers

Lifestay

Bouncers, yes, those fat burly twats who man every door in Dub. What legal rights have they? I've been told they're merely figures who intimidate authority, that they only act to scare people. Is this true?

Apparently the same goes with all non-Gardaí, security guards etc. I remember about a year ago I was in Liffey Valley (not naming the shop just in case, let's just say you buy computer GAMEs there) and I was approached by the security guard. He asked me what my name was and to go with him to check my bag. I had done absolutley nothing, I was only browsing while waiting for my mate to arrive. I was sure I had done nothing so I tried my luck with "You've right to my name but if you want me to open my bag I'll gladly do it." I got a bit of a strange face. After about 3 seconds of consideration he said "Ah I trust you, go on."

My girlfriend worked in Virgin and she was told that she was only allowed make a citizen arrest if saw the customer take the product off the shelf, put it in their bag/pocket, walk past the last point of sale and be leaving the shop. The Health/Safey Manager was adamant that no action could be taken unless all four steps were taken. So going by that, it seems that the security guard I met was getting more than his rights when I showed him my bag.

So all bouncers/security guards can do is get you out of the premises they work for and barr you? If that's the case can you approach a bouncer at a door of a club go "You're a fat c*nt" and all he can do is not allow you into the club. That'd be great!

Actually, while I'm on the topic something else just came to me. Last year, when Metallica were playing Dublin I saw James Hetfield and his bodyguard in Tower Records. I stood staring at him for a good 10 seconds when the bodyguard came up and said "Come on, respect his privacy buddy" I said "Not even an autograph?" "No, just give him some peace" came the reply and so I did, albeit remaining with the remainder of the shop watching him from a fair distance. Then he walked up Grafton Street and stopped outside Bewley's with his bodyguard and some other band-associates... apparantly the band were inside. A MAJOR Metallica fan was awe-struck. So excited and just dying for a photo. I told him he hadn't a chance but said if he stood a fair distance away (so that I could get Hetfield and him in shot) I'd take a photo for him. And I did. The same bodyguard came up to me, pushed my head a bit (not hard, I must admit, but I went back a step type of thing) and said "I've warned you already, anymore and you'll get a slap in the ear." I had no intention of causing trouble but said "Sorry buddy, but you can't do that". "Oh you'd be surprised" came the reply.

Well anyone clarify the situation. Can security guards take your name? Can bouncers hit you before you hit them? Can bodyguards tell you to f*ck off with any authority? Can security guards tell you to get off trolleys etc etc?

Gordon

Not a personal issue surely, I'll kick this towards Humanities and see what they can do for you.

Agent Smith

eh there not all fat

omahaid

To the best of my knowledge (I discussed this with my old fella, he's a guard) security guards, bouncers etc have the exact same power as the ordinary man on the street, no more no less. Airport police are the same, just revved up security guards. Apparently the laws of the land only afford these powers of searching etc to members of the Gardai and pretty much no one else. Afaik that is.

sceptre

Originally posted by Lifestay
and said "I've warned you already, anymore and you'll get a slap in the ear." I had no intention of causing trouble but said "Sorry buddy, but you can't do that". "Oh you'd be surprised" came the reply.

That would be assault if he did. A picture to identify the guy later (which you had) would be handy as well. Actually, acting in a threatening manner like that on a public street without provocation would be assault in itself.

And security guards aren't entitled to take your name. That's why we have a police force (who are entitled to take your name)

Turner

Security men.....

..cannot take your name.
Cannot force you to open your bag. ( A Garda can just barely do this if he thinks you have drugs on your person)
Cannot hit you for no reason.
Can hold onto you until the Gardai arrive provided you commit an arrestable offence (eg, theft).

Chief.

Specky

And security guards aren't entitled to take your name. That's why we have a police force (who are entitled to take your name)

actually you are not obliged to give your identity to a garda if he/she just asks for it.

This is another of those "does the sty make the pig or does the pig make the sty" issues.

Security guards generally aren't fat, generally bouncers aren't either and although I have seen many a portly gard I wouldn't put them all in that category.

Put a person in a position of authority and there will be occasions when this position may give them a distorted view of their relationship with others...take for instance teachers, barristors, etc etc.

I do have a problem with people who have a chip on their shoulder about "security personnel" though. They are there for a reason and research demonstrates that manned presence is the most effective deterant to crime.

You obviously have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about bouncers, security guards and police. I don't know why, and to be honest I don't really care, but do you really think your attitude towards them improves their attitude towards you?

I've never been thrown out of a pub or club. I've never had an issue with a bouncer or a security guard. I have been denied entry to pubs and clubs for no particular reason. Ah well, their loss not mine. I have not, as a result, decided they are all "fat c*nts" deserving of my contempt.

Bringing the gardai into your sights really is out of order.

I think there's a lot wrong with the Irish police service. My experience of the British and US police is better (there are problems but I don't think there are as many and the overall impression is much more professional) BUT I would not have to want to deal with snotty arse holes with big chips on their shoulder every day of the week, I would not like to have to attent car crashes and drag dead people from the wreckage, I would not like to be expected to deal with violent criminals, I would not like to be spat on by people who see me as a convenient symbol of everything they dispise, I would not like to have to choose where I live and where I socialise to avoid possible repurcussions from people who don't like what I do etc etc etc etc etc

Sure there are arse holes in the police force but I'm very happy for those arse holes to do all these things for me, I almost never have to deal with the police because I don't put myself in positions where it is necessary.

I've never been acosted by a security guard in any shopping centre. Do you think it could be something about you or the way you deal with people that makes you a target for problems from security personnel?

Venom

Originally posted by Lifestay

My girlfriend worked in Virgin and she was told that she was only allowed make a citizen arrest if saw the customer take the product off the shelf, put it in their bag/pocket, walk past the last point of sale and be leaving the shop. The Health/Safey Manager was adamant that no action could be taken unless all four steps were taken. So going by that, it seems that the security guard I met was getting more than his rights when I showed him my bag.

Virgin security were terrified of customers. It was drummed into them as store policy. Seem's a few month after the Aston quay shop opened, some security dude who though a customer was shop lifting, took the customer down via a flying tackle right through a stand of cd's. Turned out not only was the customer's back pretty ****ed up along with a busted arm, he was also a pretty big wig in the high court. Virgin were taken to the cleaners in the compo they had to pay out

RainyDay

Originally posted by omahaid
Airport police are the same, just revved up security guards.

Not true - Airport police & Harbour police have same powers as Gardai when they are on their own turf.

pigeonbutler

How far do the limits on how a security guard can restrain you go? Example:
I was at Iron Maiden in the Point Depot in December and about 40 mins into the gig some big monster of a typical metal fan grabbed me and threw me up to crowd surf. I tried to keep my feet on the ground but hadnt a hope. I wasn't able to get down once i was up but took some comfort in that i was very near the front so would be pulled out pretty quick by the security guards. When i got to the front i made no effort to resist their attempts to pull me down and even tried to get out. I then said "Cheers lads, Some fella threw me up and I din't want to be up there at all" Admittedly it was incredibly loud and they wore air plugs but no sooner had they gotten my feet on the ground but some super big security guy grabbed me, put me in a tight arm lock, frog-marched at high-speed to the sides of the arena and forcefully shoved me back into the crowd at the opposite side to where I'd been. Would anyone offer an opinion on whether that force was excessive?

Skud

MCM security guards have very little rights (every shop in Cork city uses these not sure bout dub)

-not allowed speak to customers(can be taken as defirmation of character)
-can only stop a person 6inches out of a shop if suspected
-not allowed physical contact unless nescessary (i.e. when they've actually stolen something)

My friend works there and he tells me this stuff. Some of it may be hazy but that's pretty much it...

Syth

Slighty related: Y'Know the way some shops have secity tags and the panals at the doors to detect the tags. If one of those goes off and you haven't stolen anything, they you are entitled to sue the shop. That's why whenever they go off, the shop just say they are broken.

Cannot force you to open your bag. ( A Garda can just barely do this if he thinks you have drugs on your person)

I had heard that Guards can search you on public property, but under what circumstances? I've heard that they need a court order no matter what.

boomdogman

Shops have to be, and usually are, very careful not to infringe on the good name of a person by alleging or indicating in any way that the person is a thief as not only would such an allegation be distressing for the customer, it would lead to a large compensation claim!

Bouncers and security guards have no more power than a private citizen to arrest, detain, search or assault you. The gaurds have lees power than most of them think but way to much under the Public Order acts.

Bouncers in particular do a dangerous, thankless job. Yes they are burly but thats not much proof aginst a knife, syringe or gun. Brian Fitzpatrick was murdered in his own garden because he barred the dealers.
Some bouncers are assholes. Most are good decent guys. Some are heroes.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Syth
If one of those goes off and you haven't stolen anything, they you are entitled to sue the shop.

You are entitled to sue anyone, anytime about anything. I am entitled to sue you because I don't like your post.

The trick is to actually win your case, or at least avoid the judge throwing your case out after 5 minutes. I'd have little doubt that any case sueing anyone for a false alarm from an anti-shoplifting device would get thrown out before the first 5 minutes are up. Unless they assaulted you or made a public, false accusation, you wouldn't have a hope in hell.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Lifestay
If that's the case can you approach a bouncer at a door of a club go "You're a fat c*nt" and all he can do is not allow you into the club. That'd be great!

eh you can say what you want to him, he could probably sue you for slander or something, more likely he'd break your nose. And who could blame him, you cheeky git.

ixoy

Originally posted by RainyDay
Unless they assaulted you or made a public, false accusation, you wouldn't have a hope in hell.

Oh I wouldn't be so sure. They handed out a 10k lawsuit to some fcukwit who got stuck in a lift for 15 minutes. It's even more insane when he was on a holiday his sister won in a Late Late Show competition. Madness.

uberwolf

If a bouncer has no more rights than you or I, can he or she legitimately search you? and if you decline this cheap grope can they refuse you? again legitimately

boomdogman

I'd have little doubt that any case sueing anyone for a false alarm from an anti-shoplifting device would get thrown out before the first 5 minutes are up.

Not so. A lady successfully sued the Pamela Scott's boutique because an assistant left a tag in which triggered the alarm. Deprnds on the circmstances but a shop cannot impinge on your reputation by making it appear that you are a shoplifter. Yhere have been a few cases.

On the bouncers thing the best behaved are on The George. Those guys are the utter opposite of every cliche about bouncers.

RainyDay

Originally posted by boomdogman

Not so. A lady successfully sued the Pamela Scott's boutique because an assistant left a tag in which triggered the alarm. Deprnds on the circmstances but a shop cannot impinge on your reputation by making it appear that you are a shoplifter. Yhere have been a few cases.

Show me the case report. I have no doubt that any successful legal suit would be very dependant on how the staff reacted when the alarm goes off, and not just the actual triggering of the alarm itself.

Hobart

Originally posted by uberwolf
If a bouncer has no more rights than you or I, can he or she legitimately search you? and if you decline this cheap grope can they refuse you? again legitimately

No. He cannot search you. You can be refused entry from any private property without reason. You cannot be refused entry based on your , race, creed, age (as long as you are over 18/21 for public bars), sex etc...

Lifestay

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
eh you can say what you want to him, he could probably sue you for slander or something, more likely he'd break your nose. And who could blame him, you cheeky git.

I wouldn't do that, but it's hyperbole to debase them

Stephen

I work as a security guard, generally on industrial sites so we have no problems with members of the public and theft and so on, but on occasion I've had to cover a shift for someone else in a shop. In retail situations we are not allowed to talk to customers unless they initiate the conversation (usually asking for directions and stuff like that). We can follow you around the shop all we like though
People are right in saying that a security guard has no more power than an ordinary citizen. Like ordinary citizens, we can make a citizen's arrest (i.e. hold the offender until the gardaí arrive) if we have seen them commit the crime. If - for instance - one of the shop assistants witnesses someone stealing something, they can get assistance from the security guard, but they have to make the actual "arrest" themselves if the security guard did not directly see it. If someone is barred or something from the site, minimal force (they really mean minimal too, btw) can be used to remove them if they refuse to leave after being asked to. It is better to call the gardai instead though, as using force of any kind is a great way to get landed with an assault charge.