Chorus - examiner appointed

Well chorus has finally started to keel over at last and the indo has pulled out!!
not surprised reall, as they are very, very bad as ye all know.

Full story here

DMC

\o/

but I wonder if customers screens will go blank screens long term ....

Mossy Monk

i am so sad with this news, i need a shoulder to cry on

Originally posted by DMC
\o/

but I wonder if customers screens will go blank screens long term ....

you mean more long term than they usually do

They are the first cable company I've ever know with a business plan to provide a worse service to their customers...
devil a small loss.
Hope some company with a bit of sense and hard cash takes them over...
wishfull thinking...

Genghis

More about IN&M's disposal of Chorus here

What is interesting is that Sky and Chorus are if not quite sister companies, then at least close relatives - Liberty Media (who now 100% of Chorus) are also the largest share holders in the company that owns Sky - News Corporation (though at 9% I guess it is hardly earth-moving).

The price is not disclosed - my guess is a token amount. Tony O'Reilly had already written off this investment last year, and with the financial shape the company is in, its 'book value' would've been negative to say the least.

Tom Dunne

Originally posted by DMC


but I wonder if customers screens will go blank screens long term ....

Sure aren't Chorus customers used to their screens going blank?

Am I a bad person for being happy about this? I spent three miserable years as a Chorus "customer" with nothing but trouble.

Hopefully they will get some competent, customer focused management in and turn the company around and give Sky a bit of competition.

icdg

Will have to wait to read the full story before commenting further. But right now, Liberty (the new owners) are saying that Chorus will continue to trade and that they are merely trying to restructure the debt.

BrianD

Whatever you may think of the service Chorus offers its customers, its possible exit from the market is of huge concern. If Chorus exits then the only alternative is Sky Digital. This puts another 200,000 customers into the hands of a foreign delivery platform that is unregulated in this State. This is not good for the customer and very uncompetitive.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by BrianD
If Chorus exits then the only alternative is Sky Digital. This puts another 200,000 customers into the hands of a foreign delivery platform that is unregulated in this State. This is not good for the customer and very uncompetitive.

If you had any experience of the crap service chorus provides, then you would realise that they are providing no competition for sky at all.
Indeed customers where possible have been leaving the chorus crap service in droves for sky.

Why should people moan about chorus's troubles when they themselves bring them about by their complete disregard for their subscribers.
poor picture quality.
Mono sound.
bad instalations
regular service interuptions .
And thats a small version of the list.

It's little wonder that they are so much in debt.

They are in fact the best promotion for Sky digital that could exist today.

BrianD

Rock climber - now that you have finished your rant perhaps you can re-read my post! If the Chorus service is as bad as you allege, at least you have the option to choose Sky Digital. If Chorus go you have only one option. Check the Satellite board and you have many complaints about sky pricing and customer service. Removing Chorus from the market reduces competition and that is not a good thing.

Mike 1972

Who will be next ?

NTL ?
Eircom ?????

Was talking to a guy who works for NTL in Belfast and he told me that
1) The operating standards of cable TV generally in the Republic is regarded with hilarity by NI/GB engineers ("they just string the cable from house to house down there")
2) When NTL bought out cablelink they thught they were getting a modern high tech cable network and not the shambles that Cablelink is. They now realise they bought a pup and since the cost bringig the network up to scratch (which would involve essentially ripping the lot out and starting over with an underground fibrebaed two way network) would run into hundreds of millions (money that debt ridden NTL dont have) they plan to cut their losses and either run it into the ground or find some other fool that will buy it

Originally posted by BrianD
Check the Satellite board and you have many complaints about sky pricing and customer service. Removing Chorus from the market reduces competition and that is not a good thing.

erm...
I think the reason why the level of chorus complaints have died down on this board was because:
(a) many , many chorus customers left them to go to the far better Sky service.
You pay extra money for it, but the choice and quality is exceptional.
and
(b) people gave up complaining, it was a broken record, nobody at chorus ever listened, they were in cloud cuckoo land instead.

I'd like to put myself on record as being a former chorus customer who switched to sky.
I've never looked back.
Chorus were then and still are atrocious.

Whats the point in having an alternative if the alternative is as bad as chorus are.
rock climber is right , that is a defacto add for sky, and not competition at all.

Dasilva94

If I could get Channel 4 and UTV from anywhere else I'd be gone in a shot. But since I watch mostly those and BBC2 I'm stuck.

Well get a ftv card, the info is on the satellite board

BrianD

Once again...put aside your rants (much of it a matter of opinion), read the post and discuss the issue that I am raising. Service levels is not the nub of my point. I am discussing the implication for the consumer.

Originally posted by BrianD
Once again...put aside your rants (much of it a matter of opinion), read the post and discuss the issue that I am raising. Service levels is not the nub of my point. I am discussing the implication for the consumer.

So I am ranting aswell:rolleyes:

Tell me this, if there were two shops down the road from you, one selling stale bread and the other selling fresh bread, which one would you buy your bread in??

There is no implication for the consumer in that scenario.

And as regards my view being a matter of opinion, it's based on fact not fiction, I have had both and Sky's family pack plus a ftv card wins hands down.

icdg

Originally posted by Mike 1972
Who will be next ?

NTL ?
Eircom ?????

Was talking to a guy who works for NTL in Belfast and he told me that
1) The operating standards of cable TV generally in the Republic is regarded with hilarity by NI/GB engineers ("they just string the cable from house to house down there")
2) When NTL bought out cablelink they thught they were getting a modern high tech cable network and not the shambles that Cablelink is. They now realise they bought a pup and since the cost bringig the network up to scratch (which would involve essentially ripping the lot out and starting over with an underground fibrebaed two way network) would run into hundreds of millions (money that debt ridden NTL dont have) they plan to cut their losses and either run it into the ground or find some other fool that will buy it

Don't think Eircom are in any danger, if rumours would have you believe they are about to re-join the ISEQ...

I'd have to disagree with the second point... NTL knew exactly what they were getting (I'm presuming a company that big does perform Due Diligance on its acquisitions...) They must have known that this was a 25 year old company after all! They thought they could bring it up to scratch and were wrong... But to be fair, they are providing a reasonably good digital TV service here now.

BrianD

Man! You are well out of order! Your comparison borders on the ridiculous! There are many people are are satisfied with the level of service offered by Chorus and there are many who are not. You also have to look at the limitations of the technology that many Chorus customer have - MMDS - so there are many issues to be examined before comparing the various multi-channel delivery platforms. You stick to buying fish and bread because obviously the implications of one multi-channel platform exiting the market (if it does) is obviously beyond you.

As for NTL, there is no doubt NTL knew what they were acquiring when they purchased Cablelink. Obviously their own financial situation put the brakes on the development that was required to bring the network up to scratch. This is probably something they knew before they bought cablelink! It is unfair to compare the ntl network in NI with RoI as as I recall - correct me if I am wrong - the bulk of that network was built from scratch during the 1990's. Despite the modern network offering TV, telephone and broadband on the one bill take up hasn't been that great in NI.

Originally posted by BrianD
Man! You are well out of order! Your comparison borders on the ridiculous!

Brian have you heard of the maxim The customer is always right
Well which service has the larger customer base and provides the better service?
Who are losing customers by the bag load and who are gaining them?
I stand by my assertion that the chorus service is crap and that is why they are in the financial mess that they are.
And that is why they are an advertisement for Sky.

Incidently I can also tell you that my local newspaper regularly carries articles where local councillors are giving out about the poor service from chorus, I have yet to meet anyone, locally at least who has a good word to say about them

Please note I haven't mentioned NTL at all.
They are a completely different fish .
NTL provide a decent level of competition for sky where they are available, but the same is far from true with respect to chorus.
The only hope left for chorus customers is that NTL buy the company to be honest. The current management don't seem to give a damn, it's little wonder O' Rielly eventually pulled out, he mustn't need the "loss Write-offs" in his accounts anymore.

BrianD

Man, the quality of service that Chorus offer is irrelevant to this debate. The consumer can make an informed decision on what service meets his/her service expectation, needs and budget. What I am saying is Chorus exits the marketplace it is bad for multi-channel customers in those areas Chorus serves. It is unlikely that anyone will replace Chorus so in its abesence the only alternative is Sky Digital. This puts Sky in a monopoly position irrespective of the quality of service they offer. They could offer the best value for money and choice ever or then again they may abuse their dominant position.

Bottomline is that Chorus can improve in a competitive market and with consumer pressure. A service provider with no competition has no incentive to do so. Another issue is that the delivery of multi-channel services in these areas is completely outside of the State and contributes nothing to this economy in the long run.

Originally posted by BrianD
Man, the quality of service that Chorus offer is irrelevant to this debate.

how is it irrelevant?
How can you compete if you offer a vastly inferior service?
Indeed , how can you remain in business if you offer a vastly inferior service.
Sky have never had anything to worry about where Chorus were concerned.
As I said the only hope, is if ntl buy them.

Bottomline is that Chorus can improve in a competitive market and with consumer pressure.

Rofl.
As long as I have known the chorus leopard it has never changed it's spots.
It has no regard for complaints at all, it just ignores them and it's paying the price for that.
You are either not familiar with the beast or choose to ignore its lack of service.
Have a read of this for a quick summary of chorus incompetance
It might educate you

Mike 1972

Don't think Eircom are in any danger, if rumours would have you believe they are about to re-join the ISEQ...
There are two ways one could interpret that my reading of it is having been asset-stripped whats left of the company is being flogged for whatever they can get for it

I'd have to disagree with the second point... NTL knew exactly what they were getting (I'm presuming a company that big does perform Due Diligance on its acquisitions...)

As the recent boom/bust in the telecoms and wider technology sector teaches us, never underestimate the studidity of pointy haired guys in suits running/investing in businesses they dont understand

yankinlk

rant on all you want - if they pull their powernet service im screwed. I have been with them for 3 years and love them (albeit their customer service sucks).

As far as tv goes, well im with sky, but i think you wont get a positive comment about chorus on these boards - but they still have more tv customers and im certain they will ALWAYS have more than Sky - it's the nature of cable versus Sattelite. And the ability to watch different channels in different rooms - and in fairness - how many channels can you watch - chorus' 30 is really enough isnt it?

sceptre

Originally posted by yankinlk
but they still have more tv customers and im certain they will ALWAYS have more than Sky - it's the nature of cable versus Sattelite.

CHorus have a customer base of 200,000 according to the RTE article. Sky already have more than that.

SBP article from two years ago when Chorus were 10,000 subscribers ahead of Sky

Examiner article from last November when Sky hit 300,000

The issue for people who managed to get powernet (congrats by the way, forgot you had it) is big & I suspect you'll either be among the first to go in a cost-saving exercise OR whoever steps in will put some money into actually advertising the service in the few areas where they still have a licence. Obviously the issue is big for TV subscribers as well but they at least have another option, which Powernet subscribers may not and the TV service is far more likely to survive.

As a few people remember, I'm an ex-Chorus customer (subscribed for about six years) who giggled like an idiot when I managed to get rid of them in favour of Sky. I suspect that but for the UTV/C4 thing, Chorus would have lost another 30 to 40,000 subscribers (that's only my guess so I can't back it up). Even despite the apparent (FTV cards, people) lack of Countdown and 15to1 on Irish Sky, people have been leaving Chorus in droves ever since the BBC first appeared. They've bled more customers than NTL for good reason - they're unreliable and incompetent but I've rambled on about that elsewhere (link provided by Man).

OK, to the real issue at hand - whether Chorus are actually titsup or not. They're not really - the court has appointed an examiner, not a liquidator. Liberty may well pump money into the company to keep it afloat. If they've bothered to buy it at all they'll have to put some money into it. It's wasted money unless they change the ethos of the company as a whole though. Relying on a simple "we have UTV and you lot don't" may have kept Chorus barely alive but it hasn't done anything to help the company actually make some money. If they're not going to make a profit there's little point in Malone stepping in at all. Realistically, anyone can spot that the O'Reilly's phoned John Malone some morning and told him that the company was about to go to the wall within a month, they weren't going to put any money into it and if he didn't buy their stake he could kiss his own investment goodbye.

That's the Chorus we're currently faced with - still a wee bit overstaffed (the maintenance staff probably aren't included in the figure of 550 as they're all subcontracted) and unable to run a service with the staff they do have as customers don't want to deal with them If they make the necessary changes, they'll survive and might even thrive. If they don't make the necessary changes it isn't the job of any government to merely prop up a company that can't fulfil the pitiful few things that Comreg actually asked them to do. Even if they went totally to the wall, someone would pick up the cable for a song before anything was turned of. They couldn't do a worse job.

BrianD

Man, the quality issue is irrelevant to this debate. Chorus offer a service using certain types of technology, with a level of service (poor as you describe it), at a certain price point in particular areas of the customer. The customer makes a decision to choose from the delivery options available to him. If I remove Chorus from the options available to the customer (not matter how good or bad it is) it narrows customer choice.

Lack of competition is bad for the customer. It is also dangerous that the delivery platform that will dominant the market if Chorus exits - Sky Digital - is unregulated within this country. This is ultimately BAD for IRISH Tv viewers.

BrianD I'd agree with you on the regulation front, and am on record as criticising Sky regarding that.

But the fact remains , that Chorus were going down a one way street ending in disaster for them unless they change their attitude.
Their lack of business acumen is astonishing.
Your points regarding the need for competion are valid enough, but so are mine regarding the fact that chorus incompetance was and is doing Sky a favour not a disfavour which negates their being competion at all.

The acid test of competition in this case would be how many customers Chorus have won from Sky.

The figures speak for themselves in answer to that, the chorus customer base is in free fall , whilst sky's base is rocketing.

watty

Hmmm...
I changed from Eircom copper wire to Chorus Wireless for Phone as the Eircom Copper would only go at 19.2 (badly) It orginally was OK. I get 49K with zero errors on the Chorus with my ordinary 56k modem.

I'd never ever consider them for TV. I just have never seen a watchable analog Chorus (cable or MMDS) in Limerick, nor a stable Digital MMDS. Also With Sky I can cancel and re-subscribe with no hastle and still have free channels.

Who else can offer an alternative to the existing "wire in the ground" that doesn't work properly?

ixtlan

The saddest thing about the state of Chorus is that if it were run properly it has enormous potential, especially with the recent increases in Eircom's phone line rental charges.

I'm with Sky and wouldn't go back to chorus in the short term but I desperately want them to get their act together.

Imagine the money they could make providing phone/broadband/TV services. I'm paying Eircom what?.... 70+eur for phone rental and DSL per month? and Sky another 50 (for movies)

The DSL is dropping in price soon reportedly, but there's big profits to be made for Chorus if only they could become even moderately competent.

I think Brian is right in his thinking. If Chorus goes, what's to stop Sky from increasing prices even further? or degrading customer service to Ireland? Even a shabby Chorus is some competition.

Ix.

crawler

This is a good debate and I am glad to see that people are beginning to see the wood from the trees......

See my post here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138146

Chorus are not going anywhere - INM never let the company grow or let them invest in anything - they simply tried to bleed the asset while Mr O'Reilly & Co ploughed money into eircom. The new ownership under Liberty / Mr Malone is good I tihnk....

Draw some parallels and fill in the blanks - look at NTL and Telewest in the UK and NTL and Chorus in Ireland - Look who the behind the scenes owners are and think mergers........

Sky are on record saying that they want £400 STELRING from each and every subscriber - we need more Competition here not less - Chorus Employ over 500 staff and pay regulator fees - Sky dont do either.....

watty

Originally posted by yankinlk
rant on all you want - if they pull their powernet service im screwed. I have been with them for 3 years and love them (albeit their customer service sucks).

You probabily are.

I had the Chorus Wireless phone as the Eircom line simply basically stopped working for Internet.

Chorus Wireless Phone is gone, dead from End of March..

Have you got a letter yet telling you of demise of Powernet?


Beware the Ides of Mars!

watty

Chorus had chance to have 120 ch digital and ditch the horrid analog Cable and MMDS before Sky went Digital. They blew it.

Chorus had chance to really promote Powernet before ANY Esat or Eircom broadband was rolled out. They blew it.

Chorus had ONLY alternative outside Digital Cable areas to Eircom for phone lines. They blew it. It now dead. Service turns off end March.

A catalogue of missed opertunities. Imagine if it had been Richard Branston's or Rupert Murdochs company.


I won't ever be paying Sky €400 pa.

But most will be paying €500 p.a. and think it wonderful.

It's like the Microsoft or Dell versus everyone else. There is really no be Redmond conspiracy or cleverness. It is just that Sun, Nixdorf, Wang, Wordstar, Lotus, Wordperfect, Digital Research, Netscape, Digital Equipment Co. Caldera (reborn as SCO) and Novell etc kept shooting themselves in the feet and being stupider.

Microsoft has never done anything innovative or unexpected. I've been a Computer Professional from 1979. We've ALWAYS known what they were going to do next and which thing they would buy in or copy.

Why have Chorus been so inept with their opertunities?

yankinlk

got the letter re the chorus phone - nothing about the powernet however.

Its a sad day to lose the phone - now i have no choice but to take eircom if i want a landline... the letter even says that eircom have setup a special phone number if i want to get reconnected aFTER mARCH - THANKS BUT NO THANKS, THINK ILL STICK WITH MY MOBILE.

Heard it thru rumor that the powernet will be taken over - so no loss of service thank goodness

d-j-k

Cable TV in the Republic of Ireland is drastically different to the UK or most of the rest of the EU.

In urban areas in Ireland cable has a huge market and an extremely high uptake. The networks are also much more extensive than in most of the rest of Europe with most urban areas being fully "cabled up"

The networks are also MUCH older many of them originating in the late 60s and early 1970s. Don't forget cablelink's predecessor companies were carrying BBC in 405 line format along side 625. We're talking really "old school" technology!

As for Chorus, they were formed by aquiring and merging various smaller cable companies into one larger brand. These companies, much like Cablelink's predecessors had various old-tech platforms that had been operating sucessfully for many years.

The Cork cable system for example is in pretty much the same state as NTL Dublin and is quite comparable to some of the remaining old analogue systems in operation in the USA, it even uses the same Jerrold Cable boxes.

Unlike most of the rest of the EU Ireland also has a very low population density. Our major urban centres, Dublin, Cork etc have some of the lowest density housing you'll find anywhere. This is not an ideal situation for cable infrastructure as it puts costs through the roof.

The Irish cable/mmds operators also enjoyed a virtual monopoly in most of Ireland as they were the only platforms carrying UK Terrestrial television. This lead to a very complacent attitude and they didn't bother developing new products until it was far too late.

I think NTL knew exactly what they were buying when they purchased Cablelink. They weren't really purchasing the existing infrastructure they were purchasing a licence, customer base and good will. However, they quickly ran out of money and are currently in dire financial straits. Ireland's seen as a fairly low priority to the NTL corporation so NTL Ireland never managed to live up to its potential.

Chorus was a joint venture between US cable operator (and major shareholder in Telewest) Liberty Media and Independent Media (parent company of the Irish Indo). I don't think Independent Media understood what they were getting themselves into with Chorus. It needed massive investment which it never seemed to get. I don't think Liberty particularly saw chours as a high priority either so it never really recieved very much attention.

Worldwide neither NTL nor Liberty are doing particularly well. They're not investing in anything and are trying to extract as much money as possible from exsisting infrastructure.

Chorus and Cablelink (NTL) had fantastic potential to do great things but never had the resources to do it.

I feel both of these companies would have been far more sucessful if they had been independent. They may even have more hope if floated on the ISEQ!

Chorus may yet blossom under direct management from Liberty or perhaps if it changes hands completely and is backed by a company with some money! Chorus digital could be a nice platform if some money was pumped into it!

NTL Ireland would prob. be far better off not part of NTL too. Fingers crossed NTL Plc decide to off-load it sometime!

Lemo

I'm a beleagured Chorus customer in the Swords/Malahide franchise. I take their analogue service with an extra package that includes UK Horizons. Since the weekend, UK Horizons has been replaced with the Sky Demo channel showing me all the benefits of Sky and Sky+. I dread ringing Chorus because, no matter what the problem, they'll insist on sending someone out.

Maybe the meltdown has started...