Eircom to defend line rental increase in Dail this Wednesday

vinnyfitz

This is the agenda of the relevant committee if anyone wants to go in on Wednesday 28th:

The Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will meet at 10.00 a.m. in CR1, Leinster House.
Agenda:

Presentations by

(i) Consumers Association of Ireland

(ii) Eircom

The Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will meet at 2.00 p.m. in CR3, Leinster House.

Agenda:

Presentations by

(i) ComReg and

(ii) Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on the recently sanctioned charges in line-rental by Eircom.

Tip: To observe the proceedings just contact one of the members or the committee secretariat

Members of the Joint Committee:

Deputies

Martin Brady (Fianna Fáil)
Thomas P. Broughan (Labour)
Simon Coveney (Fine Gael)
Dermot Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fáil)
Paul Kehoe (Fine Gael)
Peter Kelly (Fianna Fáil)
Thomas McEllistrim (Fianna Fáil)
Arthur Morgan (Sinn Féin)
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fáil)
Noel O'Flynn (Fianna Fáil) (Chairman)
Eamon Ryan (Green Party)

Senators

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael) (Vice Chairman)
Brendan Kenneally (Fianna Fáil)
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fáil)
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)

Clerk to the Committee: Ronan Lenihan

e-mail: ronan.lenihan@oireachtas.ie

Phone: + 353 (0) 1 618 3899

Fax: + 353 (0) 1 618 4123

Dangger

Thanks vinnyfitz.

Myself and Christian are currently in London at ABC's two day conference (www.abcampaign.co.uk), then we're off to Maynooth on Thursday for the NIRSA broadband conference.

Is any one thinking of popping along to the hearing?

Sleipnir

"We increased prices as we're losing market share and wanted to make more money"

"Ah, well, that's alright then. Meeting ajourned"

dahamsta

Will IrelandOffline get in touch with the CAI to express their concerns, since they don't appear to have been invited?

By the way, everyone here's a consumer, so here's how to get in touch with them:

cai@consumerassociation.ie
44 Chelmsford Road Dublin 6
Phone: +353 1 497 8600
Fax: +353 1 497 8601
Subscriptions: +353 1 497 8811

The Consumers' Association of Ireland Ltd. (CAI) was set up in 1966 to protect and educate consumers. It is the aim of CAI to represent consumers making sure that their needs as consumers of goods and services are given higher priority. CAI is an independent, non-profit and non-government organisation.

I'd suggest faxing or calling them, email is too easy to ignore.

adam

thegills

then we're off to Maynooth on Thursday for the NIRSA broadband conference

Can I get some info on this? Can a joesoap attend?

thegills

Xian

Originally posted by thegills
Can I get some info on this? Can a joesoap attend?

According to the invitation:

"Although no fee applies for attendance, for logistical purposes registration is required and places may be limited. We would ask that you confirm your acceptance of this invitation by email to 'nirsa@may.ie'."

Here's the Agenda

Mr_Man

Both the SBP and yesterday's IT signalled that Dermot Ahern has asked to appear before the committee in relation to the recent line rental increase. The papers both speculated that he would take some action to mitigate the increase, especially since it was also costing the government a lot more.

Given the announcement that Eircom and the Government have reached agreement in relation to this, does anyone think that Dermot will bottle it and let Eircom away with screwing the Irish consumer - again ?

M.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Mr_Man
The papers both speculated that he would take some action to mitigate the increase, especially since it was also costing the government a lot more.

Given the announcement that Eircom and the Government have reached agreement in relation to this,

I heard mention of this, but I missed the details of the "agreement" - does anyone have any details?

vinnyfitz

Reported in the IT today that Eircon have done a deal with Dept Social Welfare (who pick up the line rental bill for 300,000 pensioners and the like.)

Amazingly Eircon have decided not to put up the price much (47cent + VAT) to DSW (and its clients). Smart move in advance of the Oireachtas hearing. Of course the reality here is that DSW has been able to use its purchasing clout to beat a discount out of Eircom while the rest of us can go whistle.

DSW clients also used to get a €1 call credit which is now gone but they can take advantage of the vulnerable user scheme from now on.

Maybe somebody with an IT subscription could post full article?

Ripwave

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
DSW clients also used to get a €1 call credit which is now gone but they can take advantage of the vulnerable user scheme from now on.

In other words, everyone else pays an extra €1.39 plus VAT, whereas the Dept of Social Welfare pays an extra €.47, but the €1 that went to call charges is now set against Line rental instead.

I can see that they really brought out the big guns when negotiating that "deal" with oreillycom.

NOT!!!

Mr_Man

Obviously it was the same team of negotiators who struck the deal on the contract for the LUAS etc.

It is easy to strike a crap deal when it is not your money your playing with, the concept of value for money is not one understood, apparently, by those crack heads.

M.

vinnyfitz

Does anyone know how easy is it to apply for the Vulnerable User scheme?

Will pensioners who make only a few calls etc fall into that category automatically? Or do they have to know about the scheme, obtain a form, fill it in and send it back?
Can you be a vulnerable user one month and not the next? Or do you have to have low usage for the entire billing period?
If you use call waiting or anything like that are you disqualified from being a vulnerable user?

dahamsta

Originally posted by dahamsta
Will IrelandOffline get in touch with the CAI to express their concerns, since they don't appear to have been invited?

No? How about all those lines provisioned over wireless links?

Moriarty

Adam clearly forgot to take his pills this evening. Poor lad.

Pssst... your post seems to make about as much sense as.. er.. something nonsensical.

dahamsta

It was a subtle dig Moriarty. Muck will be along to explain in a minute.

Moriarty

Ah, i get it now. The quote threw me. Heh.

spongebob

Originally posted by dahamsta
No? How about all those lines provisioned over wireless links?

Chorus WLL in Cork Adam . Very cheap if u can get it ISTR its about €15 a month with €8 left for free calls from the Social allowance. Tell your granny now.

M

dahamsta

Originally posted by Muck
Chorus WLL in Cork Adam .

Appropriate smiley. I'd give me left nad to get rid of Chorus, never mind take more off the incompetent shower of robbers.

I'd still like an answer to my question by the way, subtle (but friendly) dig aside.

adam

spongebob

/me never saw dig at all ?

The CAI is a tame state sponsored quango while much of the Committee attending IoffL membership is being jollied by Cisco near Heathrow as I write.

M

dahamsta

Christ, ye're all thick. From the thread starter, there appears to be only four presentations to this JC: CAI, Eircom, Comreg and Dept of Comms.

• Eircom is obviously going to say "we need it", and because ComReg has never satisfactorily investigated Eircom's cost bases, there's no way of refuting this.
• John Doherty has already publically marked himself down as an apologist for Eircom, so nothing of interest there.
• Gov.ie has done a deal with Eircom on line rental, so it's unlikely the Department will rock the boat too much.

Which leaves us with the CAI, a tame state sponsored quango indeed, but one that would no doubt talk to IrelandOffline and maybe even ask a few questions provided to them. Hence my question, just above the one Xian chose to answer: Will IrelandOffline get in touch with the CAI to express their concerns, since they don't appear to have been invited? Is it too late now?

The friendly dig was that this is about line rental, and IrelandOffline is all about radio these days. Past comments of the committee give the impression that they don't give a toss about DSL or dialup users any more. No amount of defensive posturing will hide the lack of action on traditional connectivity issues.

adam

wexfordman

Whats all this about a chorus WLL in cork ? Where can I get more details ? Is it the city only ?

Wexfordman

dahamsta

Yes. WLL stands for Wireless Leased Line, and you'll pay leased line prices. Just in case you thought this was an IBB-style wireless service.

Speaking of IBB, still no sign of 'em in Cork to the best of my knowledge.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
Yes. WLL stands for Wireless Leased Line, and you'll pay leased line prices. Just in case you thought this was an IBB-style wireless service.

It normally stands for wireless local loop.

dahamsta

Originally posted by SkepticOne
It normally stands for wireless local loop.

Whatever. My point was that Chorus use their wireless bases in Cork to supply leased lines, and not broadband as the public has come to understand it.

adam

vinnyfitz

back on topic

I'm told ALTO were in to the committee as well this morning, mainly in the personality of Smart Telecom, highlighting how Eircon conceal most of their profits by paying down their debts.

I gather ComReg, Eircom and Dermo are all in this afternoon.

Interesting to see whether the Minister undertakes to instruct ComReg to revise the basket structure.

Alto's statment on thier website now :

Freeze line rental until new service launched

ALTO tells Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine & Natural Resources

Wednesday, 28 January 2003 Stringent controls on eircom’s line rental should be introduced until a competitive service is available to consumers, ALTO, the Association representing alternative operators in the communications market told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources today.

The Committee, which is chaired by Noel O’Flynn TD, asked ALTO, operator Smart Telecom, the Consumer Association, ComReg, eircom and Minister Ahern to meet it to discuss the recent line rental price increase announced by eircom.

The Chairman of ALTO, Mr. Iarla Flynn told the committee that ComReg had relaxed the controls on line rental in early 2003, on the basis that eircom would introduce a wholesale line rental service to other operators so that competition would be introduced in the market. The new service would allow consumers get both their phone calls and line rental on a ‘single bill’ from an alternative provider.

“We told ComReg not to relax the Price Cap until single billing had been introduced and was seen to be working. It ignored our requests to the detriment of the Irish consumer. Since the relaxation of the Price Cap, eircom has increased line rental charges 3 times but has failed to introduce the promised wholesale offering. ComReg does not appear able to enforce its own decisions - no action has been taken against eircom” , said Mr. Flynn.

“Every month that single billing is delayed is worth €40 million in line rental revenue to eircom. This project is already 12 months late and all the indications are that ComReg’s new deadline of March will also be missed.

“eircom’s monopoly on line rental is a serious inhibitor of real choice and competition in the Irish telecoms market. Marketshare of new entrants stands at just 10%, well below the EU best of 30%. eircom has simply hiked up the price of its line rental to make up for business lost to lower cost competitors, and to fund its own call charge reductions. What the consumer saves in lower call charges they simply pay back to eircom in the form of increased line rental. This is surely not what was intended by liberalising Ireland’s telecommunications sector”, said Flynn.

“Our members want a commercially viable single billing service introduced immediately. This will give consumers real choice. A freeze on eircom’s line rental must be introduced until competition is established. If ComReg cannot direct eircom to achieve this then Minister Ahern must intervene,” Mr. Flynn concluded.

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
Will IrelandOffline get in touch with the CAI to express their concerns, since they don't appear to have been invited?

A couple of points, Adam.

* As, based on your decision, we no longer represent you, until or unless you change your mind on this decision we are not at your beck and call.
* You may not, but others may have noticed that Dave and myself are currently at a two-day conference and therefore have limited time to respond to questions. Seeing as this is coming out of our own pockets, you'll understand our desire to get our money's worth.
* I wonder at your interest in the line rental issue, considering the fact that, through the largesse of your new best buddy Phil, you won't have to pay it for the next six months.
* Carmel Foley was contacted yesterday morning, where we drew her attention to our press release on the issue.
* Lastly, unlike in the past (which you're obviously hankering after), Ireland Offline is not the only voice in the chorus of outrage in this debate. I would have thought that you'd appreciate that the presence of Ahern at the hearing means that it couldn't have been escalated higher, no matter what strings we pulled (unless of course you want to dash off another email, that is - ye never know:)).

dahamsta

So after taking all that time to write your personalised rant, you can't answer the question? Carmel Foley is the Director of Consumer Affairs, which to the best of my knowledge won't be attending this JC; and to my eye she isn't on the council of the CAI, which is. Talk about having a chip on your shoulder.

By the way, I was asking about line rental because it's an important issue. You seem to have this paranoid delusion that I'm trying to topple IO or something, which I assure you is not the case. With respect, you're not even on my radar. There are bigger fish to fry.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
Whatever. My point was that Chorus use their wireless bases in Cork to supply leased lines, and not broadband as the public has come to understand it.

Just correcting you on that minor point so as to avoid spreading confusion. It does not detract from your main point.

dahamsta

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Just correcting you on that minor point so as to avoid spreading confusion. It does not detract from your main point.

Fair point, thanks.

dahamsta

I hope I won't be upsetting anyone by posting this now, what with me not being a "member" an' all. :rolleyes:

Eircom criticised on charges, single billing
28/01/2004 - 3:25:55 pm

Eircom has come in for criticism at an Oireachtas Committee hearing today.

The chairman of the Consumers Association, Dermot Jewell, said eircom's land rental charges were far above the European average price.

Jewell told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources that the average European line rental cost was about €16 whereas eircom is charging €22.49 a month.

Jewell added that line rental was the only element of the eircom services package that had never gone down and consumers were now finding it impossible to budget for it.

[...]

spongebob

Jewell made the same point that any of us would have made.

1. We will be paying more than 50% more than the EU average for what is in many (pairgained) cases a grossly substandard product.

2. Our line rental has been above the EU average for years and has been the highest since 1999.

3. It is not a 'private sector' thing. All the privatised state telco monopolies in the EU charge less than Eircom. Eircom were at the VERY top of the table while still owned by the state. Thanks for that Mary O'Rourke.

4. Time for a windfall tax on the distribution of the Eircom profits to their employees.

The staff in Eircom have colluded with this ripoff of their fellow citizens for years. They were given (gratis) 15% of a state asset in return for changes in work practises and not in order that they ROB PENSIONERS and POOR PEOPLE who are their own neighbours. Even worse if the fact we are all paying for it through the Social Welfare system.

Witch Burnings anyone

M