I am wondering

Kell

Folks,

this really applies to those who have a company car or those who know someone with a company car. As you may or may not be aware, as and from the beginning of this month the government have started charging PRSI on benefit in kind, which for me takes the biccy.

I for one am interested in having a protest march against such a thing and I am wondering if many others are feeling the same way inclined as theres not much point in me marching down O'Connell street alone with me banner. Its a perfect time to do it too given the Presidency of the european union and all these political bods from across europe converging on Ireland at the moment. It would be yet another political embarrassment and therefore perhaps achieve maximum impact if scheduled properly.

Any input would be most welcome.

K-

Ripwave

Originally posted by Kell
Its a perfect time to do it too given the Presidency of the european union and all these political bods from across europe converging on Ireland at the moment. It would be yet another political embarrassment and therefore perhaps achieve maximum impact if scheduled properly.

Do they charge PRSI on BIK in other EU countries? If they do, then marching down O'Connell St to protest that you want to be treated differently from other Europeans probably wouldn't have the desired effetc, would it?

Kell

Good point, however, speaking to a German friend she balked at the idea of being charged said taxes on company cars. Must check it out.

K-

Scottish

As far as I am aware, only the UK has a similar attitude to company cars as Ireland within the EU.

For example in Germany, it actually makes more sense from a tax perspective to have a company car - you end up better off, as does the company. I don't know, but I think this is to help the German car industry.

kida

Personally, I think they should increase it as less people might drive to work and the roads wouldn't be congested.

Also the roads would be a safer place as Company Car drivers are notorious for not caring what they hit as the company will pay for it.

Samson

Originally posted by kida
Personally, I think they should increase it as less people might drive to work and the roads wouldn't be congested.

Also the roads would be a safer place as Company Car drivers are notorious for not caring what they hit as the company will pay for it.

:rolleyes:
I just don't know where to start.

Johnmb

I don't think there'll be too much sympathy for company cars, however I am surprised that there hasn't been a campaign against including VHI and BUPA payments as BIK. Surely the government should be trying to encourage people to have these, and including them as BIK causing PRSI (both employer and employee) takes away a lot of the motivation. Also, do they still only give the credit a year in arrears, or have they at least made that a real time credit?

John R

Originally posted by Johnmb
I don't think there'll be too much sympathy for company cars, however I am surprised that there hasn't been a campaign against including VHI and BUPA payments as BIK. Surely the government should be trying to encourage people to have these, and including them as BIK causing PRSI (both employer and employee) takes away a lot of the motivation. Also, do they still only give the credit a year in arrears, or have they at least made that a real time credit?

I agree, people having private health insurance are much less likely to cost the state large medical expenses, a small tax break is more than fair.

Company cars are a different thing altogether, people are already benefiting from having one, why should they get a tax break aswell?
We already have one of the most congested cities in Europe, if you want your PRSI break get an annual bus/rail ticket.

Kell

Originally posted by John R
Company cars are a different thing altogether, people are already benefiting from having one, why should they get a tax break aswell?

Err, can you explain the benefit please? I need a car to fulfil my job as do van drivers etc. Are you suggesting that van drivers that also have their vehicle at weekends and out of work hours should get bus and rail tickets?

As it stands, I already pay BIK. Now I am being asked to add PRSI on top of it. What about the rest of you who drive your cars to work conjesting the roads in a similar fashion yet dont pay an additional tax i.e. BIK nor pay PRSI on top of it?

I pay my own private health care as PRSI gets me fúck all in this country, so not only do I pay for what PRSI should do in the form of health care, I am also being asked to pay PRSI on top of a "Benefit". As it is I pay for the personal mileage petrol.

How would you computer developers that have company supplied laptops feel about being asked to pay PRSI on the tool that you need to do your work ie your laptop. You'd be pretty píssed.

Cop on people and start coming up with decent points rather than jealousy fuelled critisism.

K-

RainyDay

What is your business milage per annum, Kell?

If you do more than 30k per annum (or a lower threshold which I can't quite recall for urban-based drivers), you don't pay any BIK. Effectively, this is Revenue's judgement on whether you need your car or whether it is a perk of your job.

Based on your statement that you are paying BIK, it looks like your car is (at least partially) a perk. Why do you feel that your employer should be able to reward you with a perk on which they don't have to pay PRSI when other employers/employees who are simply paid in cash get hit with full PRSI?

Same principle applies to laptops - if personal use of the laptop is 'incidental' then no PRSI applies. If personal use is significant, the PRSI applies.

Kell

My business mileage works out at about 28K per annum. Between 25-30k you pay a reduced rate BIK but no exemption. The alternative though is using your own car for company use and being paid mileage only, which most companies actually rip you off on and all your car is doing is losing value by the mile.

The point is, I pay full PRSI anyway like any other Joe Soap yet I get loaded again with PRSI on top of BIK which is the point I object to.

What I am seein thus far is a general attitude of shut up and accept it, but why the fúck should I? As a client pointed out to me recently "the Irish have lost their rebel spirit" and judging by the responses thus far, I have to say I second that.

K-

RainyDay

Dont mix up apathy with disagreement. I wouldn't join your protest march. This is not because I am apathetic on this issue or because I have lost my rebel spirit. It is because I disagree with you on this issue.

You haven't presented a single logical arguement as to why companies whic choose to reward their employees with cars instead of cash should continue to be allowed have a preferential PRSI treatment. Your statement 'I pay full PRSI anyway' is incorrect. You pay full PRSI on your basic salary. You don't pay PRSI on the value/benefit of your company car.

But anyway, instead of having a protest march, wouldn't you be better with a company car cavalcade? I can just picture the lines of Avensises, Mondeos and Passats parading down O'Connell St with the obligatory suit jacket hanging out of the coat hanger over the back seat.

bonkey

Originally posted by Kell
The point is, I pay full PRSI anyway like any other Joe Soap yet I get loaded again with PRSI on top of BIK which is the point I object to.

Do you though?

If I, as any other Joe Soap, go out and buy a car tomorrow, and run it out of my own pocket, I will be running it on monies which I have paid PRSI on.

You are only being asked to do likewise.

Indeed, because you get hit for a reduced BIK rate, you are being asked to do less then any other Joe Soap who buys a private car.

Now, if you could show that you never used the car for private use, I would be the first to back you up and say that you shouldn't have to pay anything....but if you get the perk of someone else buying you a car which you get to use for your own personal enjoyment outside work hours, then I don't see the problem in asking you to pay the same contribution on teh cost of the car as you would have had you acquired it in a different manner (i.e. bought it yourself).

If you argue - as you are doing - that you shouldn't pay PRSI on BIK, then the obvious trick is for companies to give as much of an employees salary to them in the form of BIK :

Instead of an extra 5K a year, they give you a car. If they gave you the 5K, PRSI and PAYE is eleigible. If they give you the car...you are arguing that asking for the equivalent PRSI is unfair. And your only response so far on anyone who has pointed this out has been that you don't know where to start.

Where to start is by explaining why BIK should not be eligible for PRSI. It is a benefit received in lieu of cash. The entire argument behind BIK is identical to that of PRSI on BIK.

Why not get your company to give you a monthly food allownce as a perk? Then - by your logic - you shouldn't have to pay PRSI on yoru weekly grocery purchases. And you need food to do your job...you'd die without it. Same logic for a clothing allowance. etc. etc. etc. and so on and so forth. Indeed, I would guess that about 80% of your salary could be "re-assigned" to things that you can arguably say are essential for your job....so get them as allowances, pay the BIK instead of PAYE, and then get away without the PRSI....

Yes, its stretching the logic a bit.....but its the exact same logic as what you're saying about the car you get to use in your personal time.

jc

Kell

Originally posted by bonkey
Where to start is by explaining why BIK should not be eligible for PRSI. It is a benefit received in lieu of cash.

I pay approx €2k per annum BIK out of my salary, which, for arguments sake could be taken as say the insurance a private motorist pays on their private car. Some circumstances vary, but as I pointed out, I also pay 15% of the fuel bills to allow for personal mileage.

Now, given the fact that I am already paying for my own mileage and the insurance (per se) of said vehicle why should I be slapped with taxation on top of the amount I am already paying towards it out of my salary? What it amounts to in my eyes is a taxation on top of a levy that I am already paying on top of the €2k that I pay in BIK.

Suppose that settles it then. No support for the cavalcade.

K-

bonkey

Originally posted by Kell
I pay approx €2k per annum BIK out of my salary, which, for arguments sake could be taken as say the insurance a private motorist pays on their private car. Some circumstances vary, but as I pointed out, I also pay 15% of the fuel bills to allow for personal mileage.

Now, given the fact that I am already paying for my own mileage and the insurance (per se) of said vehicle why should I be slapped with taxation on top of the amount I am already paying towards it out of my salary?

Kell, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here...

If I, as a private motorist, wish to pay my insurance, I do so out of monies which I have already paid PRSI on.

You are paying your 2K BIK, which - as you said - we will say is the equivalent of my insurance.

You are saying that it is unfair to ask you to pay PRSI on this 2K...which is something that every private motorist has to do.

Take your 2K as the insurance (+ servicing etc. that you don't have to pay I assume) equivalent that I - as a private motorist - pay. Take your 15% mileage to be the same as what I - as a private motorist - pay for my petrol.

So our costs our the same. Our benefits (i.e. we have the use of a car, and we use it equally) are the same. I pay PRSI on the monies that I spend on insurance etc, and you're complaining that its unfair to ask you to do the same.

Like I said...maybe I'm missing something, but to me this all reads as outrage about losing an advantage you had over the regular private motorist....not about being unfailrly punished more than the common motorist.

I mean...you're still ahead in that you don't have to actually pay for the cost of buying the car, so you're still substantially better off than the average Joe who has to buy his own car (out of monies he/she has already paid PRSI on, no less).

Suppose that settles it then. No support for the cavalcade.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but until you can convince me that you are now disadvantaged, as opposed to it being the case that you are losing an advantage you've had up to now....nope...no support from me.

jc

kida

Its a typical attitude of a Company Car driver who have had it so good up until now.
Everyone knows a company car is normally given instead of extra salary, in a lot of places you are given the choice of a car or extra salary.

Kell, why don't you bring the car back to the company every night and not use it for personal use? Thought you wouldn't, so why should you not pay for the benefit as much as the normal worker?