Would you be a suicide bomber?

monument

After reading an article (posted below) in today’s edition of the Guardian about a UK Liberal Democrat MP saying that she would consider being a suicide bomber if she lived in the Palestinian territories, I was just wondering…

If you lived in the Palestinian territories and your people’s homes were been bulldozed on a regular bases, if you thought it could possible help stop attacks on your people or even high light them to the world, would you consider being a suicide bomber?

Personally I don’t think I’d even consider suicide bombing, or for that matter killing innocent people.

Ryaner

I'd prob do it once I was sure no inocent people were hurt. I think tho that going to the soilders is kinda the wrong approach as their only doing their job so hmmm.

monument

Lib Dem MP: Why I would consider being a suicide bomber

Nicholas Watt
Political correspondent

The Guardian
Friday January 23, 2004

Charles Kennedy was last night considering whether to sack a frontbencher who said that she would think of becoming a suicide bomber if she lived in the Palestinian territories.

Jenny Tonge was summoned to explain her comments to the Liberal Democrat chief whip after telling a Westminster rally that the daily "killings and the bulldozings and all the other horrible things" in the occupied territor made her understand why people became suicide bombers.

Dr Tonge, the spokeswoman on children, told a meeting of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign on Wednesday: "This particular brand of terrorism, the suicide bomber, is truly born out of desperation.

"Many many people criticise, many many people say it is just another form of terrorism, but I can understand and I am a fairly emotional person and I am a mother and a grandmother. I think if I had to live in that situation, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself. And that is a terrible thing to say."

Amid a chorus of condemnation, Mr Kennedy distanced himself from Dr Tonge's remarks. A party spokesman said: "Jenny Tonge was expressing her personal views. The Liberal Democrats do not condone terrorism in any circumstances whether by suicide bombers or anybody else."

Dr Tonge was summoned to a meeting "as soon as possible" with the chief whip, Andrew Stunnell. The party leadership was minded to sack her as a sign of its disapproval but a clear expression of regret by Dr Tonge may save her.

A spokeswoman for the Israeli embassy said such remarks would inflame the conflict by encouraging militants to become suicide bombers.

"We were shocked to hear these remarks which were extremely disgraceful. We would not expect any human being — and surely not a British MP— to express an understanding of such atrocities. Her words show something about her moral standards."

James Purnell, chairman of the Labour Friends of Israel, said: "Having sat down with people who have lost children, mothers and fathers to suicide bombers and to military action in the West Bank I am really appalled by what Jenny Tonge has said. There is real suffering on the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side. British parliamentarians should be helping to find a way out of the conflict."

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From the digital edition of the Guardian (currently free registration for testing) http://digital.guardian.co.uk/guardian/2004/01/23/pages/brd1.shtml

3pm update: Tonge sacked over bombing comments
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/libdems/story/0,9061,1129744,00.html

KlodaX

monument ... you seem like a person set in their views ... like so many are ...

if this where a mirror world ... I think think you would be a suicide bomber.

Exit

Politics isn't worth dying for.

KlodaX

I agree with Exit ... nor is Religion ...

it is unfortunite that so many think otherwise.

mr_angry

I can't recall a suicide bombing that ever did anyone any good. That says it all really.

Cork

Originally posted by mr_angry
I can't recall a suicide bombing that ever did anyone any good. That says it all really.

suicide bombing are wreckless and cause nothing but hurt & pain.

They don't adavnce peace & only deepen devision.

swiss

As soon as I saw the title of this thread I thought to myself "What sort of title is that? This has got to be a troll". After reading the article, I couldn't see myself becoming a suicide bomber were I in the middle east. It seems to be counter productive, only leading to greater palestinian oppression and it also polarises world opinion against you, causing you to lose some of the moral highground you may posess as a result of the illegal actions being taken against you by Israel.

As for the remarks themselves, while I fully admit that Ms Tonge's comments were inflammatory and would cause a lot of anguish to the relatives of victims of suicide bombers, I can understand the sheer level of desperation that would drive someone from a staunchly religious background to end their lives in such a manner.

"We were shocked to hear these remarks which were extremely disgraceful. We would not expect any human being — and surely not a British MP— to express an understanding of such atrocities.

The spokeswoman in question clearly doesn't understand that years of brutal oppression, as well as a gradual annexing of your land to that of a militant foreign power would drive someone to desperation. She clearly can't envisage that for such a person religious fundamentalism would offer the only hope of a better life - and that destroying oneself in the name of fighting that enemy would consequently secure that "better life" in the form of an afterlife.

The way this woman has been hounded out of office for voicing an opinion is eerily reminiscent of a witch hunt.

From the sacking link

...including a demand from the shadow foreign secretary, Michael Ancram, that Mr Kennedy condemn his colleague.

Shall we have her flogged, too?

monument

Originally posted by KlodaX
monument ... you seem like a person set in their views ... like so many are ...

if this where a mirror world ... I think think you would be a suicide bomber.

As I said... Personally I don’t think I’d even consider suicide bombing, or for that matter killing innocent people.

I don’t think I’d even consider violence, if I was in such a position and that if it’d help, I’d leave and highlight what was happing in my country.

BTW, I agree with every thing swiss has said above.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Exit
Politics isn't worth dying for.

Many would disagree. The more interesting question, and the question being asked here, is whether it's worth dying AND killing innocent people for. Looking at it rationally, the answer is no, of course not. Suicide bombings aren't helping the Palestinian cause in the slightest.

But Swiss has put his finger on it by highlighting the religious aspect. Islam's not the only religion that glorifies or has glorified those who gave their lives for a holy cause, often with a bit of indiscriminate murder thrown in for good measure. I would say that while we shouldn't condone it when an oppressed, highly religious population produces suicide bombers or other murderous martyrs, we shouldn't be surprised.

I don't know much about Jenny Tonge, but I think what she did was pretty brave. She tried to put herselves in the shoes of some of the most reviled people in the world and decide if she would act differently, and she couldn't decide. And she knew that this was a terrible thing to say because she knew that they do terrible things. IMHO, this is the only way you can justify a moral judgement on someone else's actions - in their situation, would you act differently?

I'm very disappointed in the Lib Dems. In sacking her for even bringing up the topic, they have given in to the prevailing political hysteria in Britain which tries to drown out understanding in a hail of condemnation. In a sensible culture, it should be obvious that to seek to understand is not to seek to condone. But on C4 news tonight, a Lib Dem MP defending the sacking said that it was wrong to try and understand such actions. Okay, he was under pressure and he might not have meant it, but still, that attitude is just a dead end.

Sarky

Suicide bombers lack foresight. Their cause (admittedly one of causing hurt to others, but it's still something they obviously believe in) would be better served if they survived to bomb somewhere else another day.

Tommy Vercetti

It's impossible to say really, you'd have to live under those conditions I suppose.

But sure I'd give it a try anyway and see how it went.

Sparks

No I wouldn't. But then I'm a devout atheist who believes that oblivion is all that follows death. So I'd probably get a sniper rifle and kill as many of them with the minimum risk to myself as possible.
Point being, if you kill someone's family, destroy their home, take away their livlihood and kill them indiscriminately with impunity, people are going to want to stop you - and Ghandi's approach just wouldn't work under Sharon's government, for the same reason it wouldn't have under Stalin. So they'll try to hurt you the best way they can.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

simu

In such a situation, I might be a bomber but *never* a suicide bomber. I'd try to gain influence in other countries and increase awareness of the plight of my people plus educate my own people about thier rights, political organisation etc. It's not as dramatic but TBH I think suicide bombing has lost its shock value anyway and is more likely to turn Israeli citizens who may have had sympathy for the Palestinians against them.

mike65

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
But sure I'd give it a try anyway and see how it went.

Indeed!

Suicide bombers are'nt born they're made but increasingly they're made by those who should be protecting thier own. As Mercury_Tilt says Palestinian
children are thinking like potential bombers from very young and few seem to be willing to offer any alternative. Of course some would say there is no alternative....

Its easy to pontificate one way or the other from the safety of Ireland.

Oh I voted no...

Mike.

Originally posted by shotamoose
Islam's not the only religion that glorifies or has glorified those who gave their lives for a holy cause

Only specefic intrepretations of islam though.
The holy cause that you refer to most likely in the strictest sense of a "true" believer or GOD for that matter might not constitute a "holy" cause at all.

I mean, Catholics who use condoms are all going to hell you know if we were all to follow the line of Pope John Paul.
Islam is a good religion for those that truly believe in it and follow its teachings.
I'm not sure islamic extremist terrorists{read:suicide bombers} should have a monopoly on its intrepretation though or that a majority of it's followers world wide agree with them.

Krouc

Politics isn't worth dying for.

Freedom is.

sovtek

Would I become a suicide bomber in that situation. I couldn't possibly know...as I can't imagine that situation.
What I do understand is what Tonge said and I find it appauling that the Lib Dems could be so cowardly as to bow to pressure from the Israeli Embassy to get rid of her.
She expressed a very humane understanding of the Palestinian plight and is now being condenmed by *shock horror* the country that is causing the plight.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Man
Only specefic intrepretations of islam though.
The holy cause that you refer to most likely in the strictest sense of a "true" believer or GOD for that matter might not constitute a "holy" cause at all.

I mean, Catholics who use condoms are all going to hell you know if we were all to follow the line of Pope John Paul.
Islam is a good religion for those that truly believe in it and follow its teachings.
I'm not sure islamic extremist terrorists{read:suicide bombers} should have a monopoly on its intrepretation though or that a majority of it's followers world wide agree with them.

Yeah, I didn't mean ALL Muslim's glorify violence etc. Just that the religion has been used to jusfity this kind of violence, as has just about every other religion at one point or another.

BuffyBot

I think we have to seperate our distaste for the act from our understanding of the motivation behind it.

It's all very well saying you don't think suicide bombings don't do any good (which is most likely), but we can understand why these people are doing it. This is the point Jenny Tonge was trying to make I think.

mr_angry

Originally posted by Krouc
Freedom is.

But the suicide bombings aren't gaining the Palastinians any freedoms. In fact, its probably done the opposite.

sovtek

Originally posted by mr_angry
But the suicide bombings aren't gaining the Palastinians any freedoms. In fact, its probably done the opposite.

Nothing else has either...and helicopter gunships, incursions, genocide were all going on decades before anyone strapped explosives to themselves.
The only thing I see working is containment, and dis-arming for the Israeli regime and if that's not working in 12 years..regime change and war crimes trails.

LFCFan

the world has gone mad. We only have one life and I just want to get on with it the best I can and not worry about religion or politics or patriotism or war etc etc. Life's too short and I wouldn't want to get to 70 and realise I'd spent all my life fighting for something that would have made fcuk all difference to me in the long run. If we spend our lives fighting so that our children can have a better life it's more likely that they will be in the same situation.

Victor

Would I think about it - probably yes. Would I do it - probably no.

Éomer of Rohan

I'd not be a suicide bomber but certainly I'd shoot the bas***ds who had their foot on my proverbial neck.

Atreides

Originally posted by Ryaner
I'd prob do it once I was sure no inocent people were hurt. I think tho that going to the soilders is kinda the wrong approach as their only doing their job so hmmm.

Their the ones doing the raping and mudering, if thats there Job then they deserve to die, painfull. What if i said, "yea know going after terrorist is wrong, they are only doign a job".

Éomer of Rohan

It's interesting you should say that.

What I have learned from World Politics theory is that soldiers have the inviolable legitimacy of the state behind them and terrorists don't and therein lies the difference - by the UN definition of sovereignty, soldiers are effectively allowed to do as their legal and internationally recognised government tells them.

On the other hand, the interpretation that terrorists who rape and pillage etc are different from soldiers supports the idea that under no circumstances may one nation intervene in the sovereign affairs of another.

Atreides

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
It's interesting you should say that.

What I have learned from World Politics theory is that soldiers have the inviolable legitimacy of the state behind them and terrorists don't and therein lies the difference - by the UN definition of sovereignty, soldiers are effectively allowed to do as their legal and internationally recognised government tells them.

A the good old " we where only following orders" line, didn't work for the Nazi's why should it work here. What makes you think the the palestinian goverment doesn't have control over certain terrorist elements, infact I'd go as far as to say that they have a certain degree of control over all these groups.

Btw what relevance did the last comment have?

Éomer of Rohan

It's a fair bit more complicated than the 'we were only following orders' line - but at base level, I suppose it equates. This is not my own viewpoint of course, just the general principle on which International Relations is supposed to operate.

The last comment was a sarcastic dig at those who would be outraged that someone could excuse soldiers and yet might support a humanitarian intervention. In the rules behind world politics, it's all one multi-faceted coin.

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
This is not my own viewpoint of course, just the general principle on which International Relations is supposed to operate.

"supposed to" being the operative words there, eh Dave.

A more honest response would appear to be that "I was only following orders" is fine for the victors. The losers have done wrong simply by losing...

jc

Atreides

You see I've nothing wrong with soldiers, just isreali soldiers are murdering bastards with no reguard for no jewish life

Éomer of Rohan

Very true jc, and very reminiscent of Old Thucy. The Melian Dialogue and the "Strong doing as they will, the weak as they must."

Victor

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
What I have learned from World Politics theory is that soldiers have the inviolable legitimacy of the state behind them and terrorists don't and therein lies the difference - by the UN definition of sovereignty, soldiers are effectively allowed to do as their legal and internationally recognised government tells them.

A very dangerous statement to make. When a friend became a lieutenant in the RDF, he swore "to obey all legal orders", while an American friend had to swore "to obey all orders". If the American breaches the Geneva Convention, he can be held personally liable - as an officer he cannot claim "I was only following orders" (officers are meant to know better than enlisted men, but that doesn't give them carte blanche either).

Éomer of Rohan

I know it is a dangerous statement but it really underlines, as you point out, the hypocrisy inherent in the interpretation of international affairs.