CIE privatisation, Yay, or Nay?

flogen

So are you for or against the privitisation of CIE?
Yay or Nay with reasons why.

from what Ive gathered, the basic arguments are as follows:
government say its a good idea because healthy competition will give customers more choice and help to drive down prices, raise quality etc.

bus unions say it will be bad for the customer as foreign companies wont care about you, and will only operate routes that are profitable, thus cutting off alot of people in more rural areas. They also say it will drive up prices in the long run and there wont be true competition as only 1 company will be allowed to operate on a specific route.

Personally Im currently on the side of the unions, but Im not fully informed on it all, so........ enlighten me please.

Flogen

ixoy

LMAO - Unions say the other companies won't care about you? FFS, it's clear CIE don't give a damn about you either. Their appalling lack of notice about the DART works is proof of that, along with numerous other examples.

On the subject then. I imagine some of the routes are not profitable and - in a privatised world - would be disbanded. Thing is - I don't live on them. A private company wouldn't be able to hold the country to ransom in the way CIE are. They probably also wouldn't tolerate the likes of unions holding a stranglehold on them - wahh wahh we're forced to work now and then, give us more pay wahh wahh wahh.
I'd like to see it given the chance on a few routes in Dublin (but not all of CIE yet). I don't think the full privatisation of CIE is the way to go until we've seen a smaller sample of what it'd be like. I personally rubbish CIE's claim they have our interests at heart so let's give the competiton a small chance.

sceptre

If there won't be more than one company operating on any given route it isn't competition (no, I'm serious, it fails the basic definition of what "competition" is). Take the competition part away from both sides of the argument and what do we have left?

(and yes, that's a question - I haven't been on a train or bus in four years)

SkepticOne

AFAIK, companies will bid for routes and companies will be chosen on the basis of highest payment or lowest requested subsidy depending on whether the companies deem the route profitable or not.

So there will be competition of a sort though only one 'customer' - the regulating entity. In theory, the most efficient company should win the most routes, thus minimising the overall subsidy from the government.

I would not expect things to change too much from the point of view of the bus passenger. Things could get worse if the companies try to cut corners in order to maximise profits. On the other hand, they may be more eager to get your fare so might be more willing to wait longer at bus stops in order to collect it. They might even use the centre door as it was designed.

I think the overall service will be as good as the regulating body. Maybe they'll get Etain Doyle to run it.

Xterminator

I'm in favour of privitisation in principle.

I am sick of Dublin Bus, and the non exisiting customer service it provides.

Buses come late, sometimes dont turn up at all, and when the next bus comes, the driver just mumbles its nothing to do with him!!!

Do they really think thats the way to run a business?

I do have my worries about how the new 'tendered' bus services are run, as i have expierenced both bad an good service from private bus services to the likes of ballycoolin and citywest.

A strong regulator is needed, aswell as some enforcement of bus timetables etc.

But IMO, they just cant get any worse.

X

shotamoose

Just because the present publicly run service is awful doesn't mean that the solution is to privatise it.

There won't be competition in any meaningful sense of the word, which wipes out a considerable part of the argument in favour. Another part is that private sector companies are simply more efficient. But actually this is only down to competition. In an uncompetitive, poorly regulated market they tend to be efficient only at making themselves hatfuls of money.

So it eventually comes down to the quality of regulation, as SkepticOne says. Thing is, regulating a privatised public service is actually more difficult than managing a public one, and since here in Ireland we haven't managed the second yet what makes us think we can do the first?

In London the bus network is privatised but incredibly heavily regulated, and runs pretty well. But there was more initial competition from providers to have access to the market because of its size - I don't think you'll get that in Dublin or on rural routes, and I don't think we'll be as good at regulation. London buses are also one of the very few success stories of transport privatisation in the UK - bus networks in most other cities are poor, and the privatisation of British Rail has notoriously been a complete catastrophe.

Transport in Ireland needs major reform, but not this major reform.

BuffyBot

So are you for or against the privitisation of CIE?
Yay or Nay with reasons why.

I think the word "privatisation" is a bit of a misleading word here. As far as I understand it, it will be allowing private companies to operate routes, awarded and regulated by a government bodies. Privatisation would mean a complete free for all, which isn't the case.

bus unions say it will be bad for the customer as foreign companies wont care about you, and will only operate routes that are profitable, thus cutting off alot of people in more rural areas. They also say it will drive up prices in the long run and there wont be true competition as only 1 company will be allowed to operate on a specific route.

I can't see any difference between CIE (not known for caring about their customers) and the likes of the big British transport groups like First Group (who own Aircoach) or Metroline (who own AerDart and Citylink). As for profitable routes - most routes are government subsidised to one extent or another so again not much difference between CIE and another company. First Group etc will gladly run a route to anywhere that is needed with a subsidy that makes it worth it.

Rail privatisation is a different thing - however, I don't think that is up for discussion by the government at the moment.

Typedef

Originally posted by Xterminator

I am sick of Dublin Bus, and the non exisiting customer service it provides.

Buses come late, sometimes dont turn up at all, and when the next bus comes, the driver just mumbles its nothing to do with him!!!

I disagree.

I think Dublin Bus, is one of the few examples (perhaps the only example) of a government public transport service that gets the job done, ostensibly on time and regularly.

Compare and constrast to the inter-county train services.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Typedef
I disagree.
I think Dublin Bus, is one of the few examples (perhaps the only example) of a government public transport service that gets the job done, ostensibly on time and regularly.
Compare and constrast to the inter-county train services.

I'd agree with that,
I used to get the dart for a few years to college and work, and I'd never any problems with it, always on time (forgiving the 'DART Minute'), usually clean and quicker than the bus.
Dublin Bus is fine by me, 46A that I get these days is probably one of the busier and more frequent routes, but bus drivers are always reasonably courteous and the fare charged is fine by me.

Stark

I've never had a major problem with Dublin Bus services. On a lot of routes buses are every 7 minutes, so missing a bus or bus showing up is not a big deal.

Compare that to Cork, busiest route the No. 8- servicing both of Cork's colleges. Buses are scheduled every 15 minutes, but on average every second bus doesn't show up, leaving this at 30 minutes between buses. Now also consider that most students finish college at 6:00, however there is no bus scheduled between 6:30 and 7:00. The bus before that will generally not show up, leaving you guaranteed to be stuck waiting between 6:00 and 7:00, unless you leave your lecture early to be there for 5:45. After 7:00, the service is generally very slow at returning to normal as well. I've often been stuck there till about 7:30 or 8:00

The first thing I thought when I got to Dublin and experienced the bus service here - "Paradise!!". You can do a whole lot worse than Dublin Bus.

sovtek

From my perspective "privatisation" is an excuse to give someone's brother-in-law a job.

ssh

I say nay.

Most supporters of the idea claim that with competition comes better service. I don't buy this. The majority of Dublin Bus' problems stem from the poor road layout in this city. In areas where the busses are not affected by traffic (like the 46a), I find the service to be of an extremely high standard.

I also don't understand exactly how the multiple operators will compete. If two private operators, A and B are running on the same route and I have a bus ticket for operator A, am I going to have to watch operator B's bus go by because my ticket isn't valid for them?

If each route is being given to a single operator, then the notion of competition can be thrown out of the window. Does the Dart compete with the London Underground?

It makes sense to leave many things to a competitive private sector where consumers will genuinely benefit, but I have a feeling the deregulation of certain bus routes and subsequent privatisation of CIE is going to make the whole Eircom thing look a roaring success.

Not that Brennan would understand that, let alone the majority who voted for him. :-(

simu

Nay!

Bus Eireann isn't great but I'm sure many of the less used routes are unprofitable and it would be infeasible for one private company, not to mention two competing private companies to run busses on them.

Who says state-run companies have to be inefficient? Would it not be possible to give incentives to drivers to be on time and also, to monitor routes continually for changes in journey time due to traffic etc and modify them accordingly?

Stark

They need to keep the public company to service the unprofitable routes. However a private bus service would clean up servicing busy routes that receive **** Bus Eireann service (like the above mentioned no.8 cork route).

Even notice how much business taxis do sweeping past bus stops?

ixoy

Depends on where you wanna go. If you want to go to Portmarnock, the bus routes are certainly not every 7 minutes. They're every half hour, if you're lucky. Anyone who points out that there's a DART station in Portmarnock has clearly never used it....

However, for the busier routes Dublin Bus does as good as it can. If it's late, it's because the city is clogged full of twats who drive in a car with only themselves inside it.

Typedef

Single car drivers should be shot basically.

/up against the wall.

Xterminator

An issue being missed here is that through dublin buses inbred inefficency they are failing to run the services properly.

We the tax paying public pay them a subsidy. This is fair enough on routes that cannot make a profit, but still have a social value.

But Dublin Bus facts show that they dont make a 'profit' on any route!!!!!
How can they justify not being in the black on some routes such as the no.10, the 16 and the 11 ? These bus routes are always busy, and usually near capactity of the buses running the routes.

It may be a combination of entrenched union positions, bad management, and overheads allowed to run too high, aswell as the oft trotted out traffic situation excuse that means the income from these routes does not even meet the cost of running them!

If we could stop subsidising the profitable routes, there would be more money available to subsides the non profitable ones, and perhaps save the taxpayer a few bob too.

This is what privatisation will achive in one swoop.

X

simu

If we could stop subsidising the profitable routes, there would be more money available to subsides the non profitable ones, and perhaps save the taxpayer a few bob too. This is what privatisation will achive in one swoop

So you'd have to divide transport services into profitable and non-profitable and privatise the profitable ones? (A private company won't want to subsidise anything - they're just interested in profit for shareholders). Sounds a bit messy...

Xterminator

Originally posted by simu
So you'd have to divide transport services into profitable and non-profitable and privatise the profitable ones? (A private company won't want to subsidise anything - they're just interested in profit for shareholders). Sounds a bit messy...

If you look at what is being done, this minister will announce routes that are on offer, and companies can tender for the right to service that route.

So, it may or may not be messy, but thats what the minister is doing.

PS The private company dont subsides anything, the amount of public subsidy is decided by the tender process, based on the route. IE The company tendering says we can provide x quaility of service, for y amount of subisdy.
Best offer wins.

X

sovtek

Originally posted by simu
Bus Eireann isn't great but I'm sure many of the less used routes are unprofitable and it would be infeasible for one private company, not to mention two competing private companies to run busses on them.

My experiences on Bus Eireann were far more enjoyable than on Citylink. The latter pack you in like livestock.

Oh yeah....Nay!

Sparks

*looks at rail privitisation in the UK*

Nay.

simu

quote: Originally posted by simu
Bus Eireann isn't great but I'm sure many of the less used routes are unprofitable and it would be infeasible for one private company, not to mention two competing private companies to run busses on them.

My experiences on Bus Eireann were far more enjoyable than on Citylink. The latter pack you in like livestock.

Wht I'm saying is that there's room for improvement which could be brought about by more innovative management. The cross-country services are pretty good but, for example, the Cork City bus service can be poor at times. Certainly, though, I do think we are better off with it being a state-owned company.

daveydub

Well Im not sure what to vote.. I look at the public transport in Germany which is controlled by the state and hey it got me where I wanted to go a lot faster and on-time, more so then whats currently on offer here!
There's loads of bus routes and plenty of buses but yet they never seem to be where and when you want them. What annoys me the most is the farce that Dublin Bus call a "timetable" I dont think they looked up the meaning in the dictionary? I was told once that because the driver of the 'MuseumLink' was on hols for 2 weeks the service was not operating till he got back!

What CIE needs is a good kick-up-the-arse, give us more buses that run on time and timetables that tell me when the bus will be at my bus stop not when the driver choses he might leave the Terminus!... Im not sure there is a need to privatise them, just make them do what they're meant to be doing a whole lot better :dunno:

DadaKopf

Originally posted by shotamoose
Thing is, regulating a privatised public service is actually more difficult than managing a public one, and since here in Ireland we haven't managed the second yet what makes us think we can do the first?

There's the other little chesnut about private companies not being very good at running public services. Privatised public services often end up costing the state more in subsidies and bail-out money.

monument

I don't use state run transport on a daily bases, but when I do it’s mostly Ballina to Dublin (bus or rail), and sometimes Ballina to Galway (bus).

I’ve very few complaints about using the above bus routes (besides the bus leaving on time, when I’m running late). Rail is often another story, but I can’t see things getting better if the network is put in private hands.

monument

Originally posted by Xterminator
I am sick of Dublin Bus, and the non exisiting customer service it provides.

Buses come late, sometimes dont turn up at all, and when the next bus comes, the driver just mumbles its nothing to do with him!!!

Reminds me of past experiences of viewing people giving out to drivers – when (as with your above case) the drivers were not at fault - you do know that drivers do not get paid for doing customer service???

DadaKopf

Our problem is that Dublin Bus drivers run Dublin Bus for themselves, not for the public. The government has to whip Dublin Bus into shape. They have to present Dublin Bus with a clear ultimatum, a clear set of incentives to become more efficient and to provide a better service.

Brennan and McCreevy want to privatise Dublin Bus to balance the books. They have no interest in providing genuine public services. Brennan goes to other cities to get inspired by their transport systems but either ignores, or is not told, the downsides of privatisation. Or doesn't care.

It all reminds me of what G. B. Shaw said about Stalinist Russia on return from his visit to the 'breadbasket' of Europe.

The government doesn't need to privatise Dublin Bus. McCreevy does.

Gearoid

Nay.
Privatisation is just the easy way out for tthe State, they haven't the imagination, Motivation or ambition to make a decent public transport system. They could improve things if they got the finger out but instead they want to pass it on to a company.

Zombrex

Nay

One word for you - England.

Anyone who wants a to see how a private rail service can destroy public transport just look next door

Sand

The whole auctioning a route to the lowest bidder isnt competition its selling a monopoly on a route.

Competition already exists to some extent along the C.I.E. routes from my town into Dublin - in the morning C.I.E runs maybe 2-3 buses through after about 7 and before 8 am, which is the crucial time to get in before 9am. The private coach service runs 4-5. Its buses are actually clean and not full of rubbish, graffiti, strange smells and knackers. On hot days a lot of the buses even have air conditioning so you can stay cool - I **** you not. Its drivers are actually polite - if they see you trying to attract their attention theyll actually pull in where they get a chance to pick you up quickly - C.I.E drivers just cackle as they drive on past.

Needless to say there is only one place my money is going despite the fact the private bus service is slightly more exspensive. C.I.E is a fecking disaster and to be honest the government doesnt need to "sell" routes or regulate - a well run private bus service thrashes C.I.E and its knackery service up and down the street, just remove the subsidisation of C.I.E so that the so-called un-profitable routes can be made profitable for the private bus services.

Oh and if youre wondering why buses sometimes dont come at all its becuase the drivers are playing cards with their mates back at the depot and cant be arsed leaving the game early. The drivers run C.I.E, the supervisors and bureacrats that are apparently supposed to "whip" C.I.E into shape cant say a word to them without there being fullscale union action.

BuffyBot

Anyone who wants a to see how a private rail service can destroy public transport just look next door

In fairness, the UK made a bit of a mess of rail privatisation, but mostly because they privatised the network itself, not franchised the actual services out.

The actual franchised services run by Virgin, National Express, Arriva etc aren't worse than what was provided by the old BR, and in some cases its much better. However, privatising the actual tracks etc doesn't work.

sovtek

Originally posted by daveydub
Well Im not sure what to vote.. I look at the public transport in Germany which is controlled by the state and hey it got me where I wanted to go a lot faster and on-time, more so then whats currently on offer here!

That could be inserted into a discussion about just any ol' public service you can think of.
It seems to me the logical thing would be to hire the person that runs the German system and get it running here.

sk_irl

Basically privatisatio does nothing for the people. it's just another way for our government to sell off one of their problems. at risk of abuse from all the rich people in this country it is my sad duty to tell you that taxes are too low. as our government does not have the balls to do nanything about the tax system they find it a lot easier to sell off public servicdes to those who have no interest in the people they serve only the profits that they make. it will eventually lead to a drop in the standard of service as privbate compnies will drop any routes they see as a financial liability.
After all if the government thinks that private company can turn the public transport system into a profitable organisation, then why dont they do it themselves and earn a some money for our many underfunded schools and hospitals.