NCT failure because of number plates

Our man in Havana

Just thought I run this by you guys. My "new" car was NCT in December and was turned down because of incorrect number plates i.e. No EU flag or county in irish.

Thing is its a 1990 car. The requirement for EU plates did not come in till 1992. So the plates it had were legal when it was registered in 1990. When did they suddendly become illeagal?

Thanks for your opinions

seamus

Well, well, it seems you were failed incorrectly...

from http://www.oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/vehicle_registration_numbers.html?search=Number+Plate

It's important to note that the rules regarding the special format of vehicle registration plates do not apply to vehicles that were registered prior to 1 January 1991 or to vehicles registered in the "ZV", "ZZ" or Trade Licence series.

So since your vehicle was registered in 1990, it is not required to have properly formatted plates. Lucky you

Eurorunner

Just had my nct and required a retest to get it through. Its just a money making racket. Mine was failed first time round on something they presumed needed to be changed (even though the previous owner had already done so) as it was an expected problem item on this particular model vehicle.

Clearly its payback time now for this swedish company (SGS) and after the govt. handing the whole thing over to them, its now that they're going to recoup their investment. It would be interesting to do a poll and see how many people failed first time round - focusing on the 'fresher' cars..say 2000+

I think that their pricing should include a retest as necessary - cos more than likely it will - which would be the best part of €80.


As for your case 007, i hope that your not going to let them away with it! I had heard somebody at work mention that they were failing people for this so they obviously couldnt fail it on anything else.

Silvera

I agree, don't let them away with it BJ Bond.

However, a word of caution - If a car was imported after 1/1/1991 it will have to display correct Euro plates - regardless of what year it is (except vintage 'ZV' reg course!).

But if your car was first registered here (i.e. new) in 1990, then your plates are ok as is.


Give em' hell !

Best of luck,
Silvera.

Our man in Havana

Its not imported. Its says on the tax book Jan 1990 as the date of registration and its first tax disc. Registered in Dublin so coudnt be imported.

There was no other reason for failure. Everything was A1 except the plates.

feckers

Our man in Havana

Update:

Brought it back and still no go. They are insisting that the rules apply to everything and would budge. They said that they are following the rules as laid down.

Where can I go from here?

seamus

Give them the section of the constitution that says laws cannot be applied retroactively.....

If you have a solicitor, I'd say have a quick chat with him. A nice letter/email to Seamus Brennan, with all of your evidence stating that such a regulation is unconstitutional will go further than you think....



{Actually, now that I think of it, before you go overkill, is there any procedure on the form for dissatisfaction or appeals that don't just involve ringing them up and asking?

DMC

There is an appeals mechanism with the NCT, not sure how much it is. You case is a good one to follow through. Espically armed with the Oasis document seamus quoted.

MarkR

That should only be an advisory, not a fail. Happened to me. Ditto with aftermarket pedals with no rubber on them.

ZENER

23. The provisions of this Schedule shall be deemed to be complied with in relation to an identification mark which incorporates the index mark ZV if the identification mark exhibited on the vehicle complies with the provisions of Part 1 of the Third Schedule to the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations, 1982 (S.I. No. 311 of 1982)."

The above is from the amendment:

Here

and appears not to mention the pre '91 cars while it does mention the "ZV" reg. Does this amendment over-ride the one you are referring to ?

Tinky

conor-mr2

Sure 318/92 does not even mention vehicles prior to 1991 not having to comply with the regulations. I wonder where the oasis.gov site got that inofrmation from. Twud be interesting to know.

Our man in Havana

Went back again armed with relevant act and oasis sheets. Spoke to the gaffer and they let it thru.

A victory for commonsense and the little guy.

sceptre

Nice one Mr Bond

As an aside, what kind of motor carries a ZV plate? Vintage? Diplomatic?

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
As an aside, what kind of motor carries a ZV plate? Vintage? Diplomatic?

Classic / vintage imports ar eallowed silver on grey plates and use the ZV series.

Diplomatic plates have "CD" (Corp Diplomatique) added to a standard plate in smaller letters. I suspect not all CD cars have CD plates.

Eurorunner

Went back again armed with relevant act and oasis sheets. Spoke to the gaffer and they let it thru.

Looks like you might have been shaken but you werent stirred mr. bond:D (sorry..cant help myself)


No really, its nice to see a bit of justice being done.

conor-mr2

Hey hey thats good to hear!

Tenshot

For the benefit of anyone else running into problems with this, another useful page:

http://www.revenue.ie/pdf/carplate.pdf

This one's dated November 2002, so can be taken as pretty current. It explicitly excludes vehicles registered prior to 1 Jan 1991.

Silvera

Well done BJB !!!

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by MarkR
That should only be an advisory, not a fail. Happened to me. Ditto with aftermarket pedals with no rubber on them.

They no longer have fail advisory you have to fix and retest.

And even with a paid retest it's still probably cheaper than getting ripped off by a garage doing stuff just in case. eg: I know someone who was advised to get replace their car by a garage because it wouldn't pass the NCT. It did indeed fail. The brake pedal rubber cost €7.19 to replace and the car passed the free retest on the same day.

unkel

Nice one James

TomF

Begob! I went out and bought new EU plates for my '85 Fiesta that was first registered in Ireland in October 1989 (I bought it 3rd hand in 1996) while getting the car ready for the NCT after I heard that EU plates were necessary to pass, and the EU plates cost me €9.50 each, I think.

Earlier this week in Galway City I saw a car driving along with the "G" in Irish script. I wonder if the heartless ones at the NCT will let this one pass? (Can those script plates get through? What about a German who wants his plate in Gothic letters?)

Silvera

All europlate lettering/numbers MUST conform to official standard fonts.

Gaelic, gothic or otherwise will fail the NCT.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Silvera
All europlate lettering/numbers MUST conform to official standard fonts.

Gaelic, gothic or otherwise will fail the NCT.

I do notice a lot of muppets with those italic letters on their plates. I was told that they do it to avoid speed cameras and gatso vans.

Seth Brundle

fancy script doesn't stop the Gardai sending a fine + points to you

Hoors Knickers

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
I do notice a lot of muppets with those italic letters on their plates. I was told that they do it to avoid speed cameras and gatso vans.

Whats a gatso van?

Kali

There was a brief mention of the NCT test and a number of instances of the pedantry that happens with it on 5-7 live (rte radio 1) yesterday.. two failures which I remember being:

- no spare wheel & tyre, emergency repair cans not acceptable apparently despite the fact that several new cars ship with these only.
- not being able to see the belt buckle on the back seat.
- not having the county name in irish on the registration plate.

And several instances of peoples cars falling apart (one guys engine actually fell out, few cases of wheels coming loose as well) after getting the all-clear (a pass) from the testing centres... ridiculous that they should oversee such points yet fail cars on the relatively minor factors above.

Apparently there'll be a bigger discussion on the NCT on the show today for those interested.

Kali

Originally posted by Hoors Knickers
Whats a gatso van?

Typically an unmarked ford transit that parks on the side of the road.. with a little square on the tinted rear windows so that the speed camera can see out, nab and record approaching speeding traffic... as seen on a dual carriageway near you.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Kali
And several instances of peoples cars falling apart (one guys engine actually fell out, few cases of wheels coming loose as well) after getting the all-clear (a pass) from the testing centres... ridiculous that they should oversee such points yet fail cars on the relatively minor factors above.

Yes there are failings in the NCT - but it's not the compny who are doing the NCT that designed it (?) If you could add in a discretionary failure, where they could fail cars for other stuff not on the test can you imagine the outcry !
Simpler to get the syllabus changed to include things like engine mounting brackets. (remove the loopholes in the "law" don't blame the testers for following the law)

BrianD3

And several instances of peoples cars falling apart (one guys engine actually fell out, few cases of wheels coming loose as well) after getting the all-clear (a pass) from the testing centres... ridiculous that they should oversee such points yet fail cars on the relatively minor factors above.

Ah, but at the time of the test the car would have been roadworthy and safe. Something like a wheel hub or engine mount could be fine during the test - then on the way out of the test centre it could at that very moment reach the end of its life and fall apart. There's no way in the world that the NCT can predict that a car will be roadworthy 1 year, six months or even one day after the test is passed.

Also, don't believe everything you hear about the NCT. Like driving tests, there's a tremendous amount of BS excuses going around about the NCT. People don't like like to accept that their car is an unroadworthy piece of crap because they were too tight to service/maintain it properly. So they make up excuses for why they failed - the tester was a pr!ck and so on.

BrianD3

MadsL

- no spare wheel & tyre, emergency repair cans not acceptable apparently despite the fact that several new cars ship with these only.

Hmmm...like mine (Smart). Surely that can't be a fail if the car originally passed a cert of conformity without a spare wheel as standard issue to get on the road in the first place.

Sound's like this govt though....

BigEejit

well bollix, my wifes car failed the nct today for not having the county name in Irish on the plate .... what prat came up with that rule I'd love to know ..

Anyway, the guy in the NCT centre seemed to think putting a sticker with the county name in Irish on the plate (in the right place) would pass! ..

And my wifes car is a 94 jap import so no loopholes for me ..

Dunno if making a sticker with a dymo or something would work, heh .. it'd probably fall off on the way there

thesteve

I failed mine two weeks ago for not having the name in irish (its a 2000 yaris and the original plates, the irish name thing only came in in september last year) and having a worn rubber pedal.....

my old man got a new avensis so i borrowed his pedal...... i then got out my ruler, pencil and permanent black marker, unscrewed the number plates, sketched out the county in pencil and when I was satisfied it looked ok, I coloured it in.....

took it back to the NCT centre, the dude in the overalls took one look at each plate and pedal, and gave me my cert, happy days, not a penny spent

funny thing was it was the mechanic who told me i failed that told me to use the permanent marker

Victor

Originally posted by thesteve
the irish name thing only came in in september last year

No, thats been the rule since about 1992.

Originally posted by thesteve
my old man got a new avensis so i borrowed his pedal

And your father is using what? :eek:

thesteve

"borrowed" = took and gave back?!

ah no, I'm talking about a regulation to pass the NCT here.....september last year, as even stated by the mechanic who failed my car

1992?, the NCT for private cars only came in on 4th Jan 2000

John R

I believe Victor is saying that Irish lettering was mandatory on plates from 1992, there were rules about these things before the NCT, just no reason to pay attention to them.

Quatre Mains

Originally posted by thesteve
i then got out my ruler, pencil and permanent black marker, unscrewed the number plates, sketched out the county in pencil and when I was satisfied it looked ok, I coloured it in.....

- classic, well done.

Anyone failed for the blue part of their reg not being illuminous/reflective? This happened me in 02. Now thats a real safety hazard. Motor factors all round the country are laughing at us, having knocked out these reg plates for years knowing they didn't conform to proper standards. Once again the Irish consumer is left wearing a big red nose...

Neil

Seth Brundle

it is not up to the motor factors to ensure your car is road legal - it is up to you.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by kbannon
it is not up to the motor factors to ensure your car is road legal - it is up to you.

But, the number plates they sell should conform to the regulations.

Sleipnir

The number plates on your car must conform to the legal standard, end of story.
If you put illegal plates on your car then you're breaking the law.

If you bought them then it's your own fault, not the sellers!

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Sleipnir
The number plates on your car must conform to the legal standard, end of story.
If you put illegal plates on your car then you're breaking the law.

If you bought them then it's your own fault, not the sellers!

Your a dumbass.

Sale of goods act 1980.

Items sold by shops must be fit for purpose. If they do not conform to legal guidelines they shouldn't be selling them.

Sleipnir

Why don't you quit with the name calling?
Just because you feel stupid for being done by whoever sold them to you don't take it out on me.

I don't thing Li-lo's should be sold because some kid get pulled out to sea and drowns almost every year.
I have enough sense to know that, just because they are being sold, it doesn't mean it's a good idea to buy them and use them "for their intended purpose"

Our man in Havana

Time to kill this thread?

MojoMaker

You could apologise to the chap first...

Victor

He could, but Sleipnir could also realise that li-los are only recommended for swimming pools and the like and that shotguns are meant to be used for shooting vermin not people.

However, if I go into a garage or car parts store and ask for a registration plate that doesn't say "IRELAND" but something in the format of 11-A-1111, that it's not to for send to the cousins in the States.

Tenshot

As a footnote to the whole number plate issue, I did my NCT yesterday at Fonthill (passed - yay!) and noticed that at the advice desk, they have a small display stand with flyers giving the exact requirements for number plates. It's essentially a reprint of the PDF mentioned earlier at http://www.revenue.ie/pdf/carplate.pdf

The flyer explicitly states cars registered before 1 Jan 1991 are exempt from the regulations, which is just as well because mine is 1990, and has no EU markings whatsoever! The subject never even came up during the test.

Victor

Of course, why can't they just stick with the international "Taxi", after all it's Latin, not English.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1037899,00.html

The Sunday Times - Ireland
March 14, 2004
Tacsai signs fail the NCT
Richard Oakley

TAXIS are failing the NCT because they have a word in Irish — the country’s first official language — on their signs. The word? Tacsai, the Gaelic for taxi.
The revelation that the signs, used by “tacsai” drivers for years, are in breach of government regulations has been slammed by an Irish-language lobby group. Conradh na Gaeilge said that not allowing taxi drivers to use Irish signs may even be illegal under legislation protecting people’s rights to use Irish. The group has demanded that the regulations be changed immediately.

“We can’t believe this is happening. It is a disgrace,” said Deirdre Ni Mhuiri of Conradh. “If a person wants to conduct their business in Irish, they have to be allowed to do so.” The Official Languages Act, passed last year by the Oireachtas, stipulates that Irish people have the right to do their business in the first official language.

Vincent Kearns of the National Taxi Drivers’ Union said he was aware of a number of taxi drivers whose cars were not passed because their signs were in Irish. He said the rule was “madness”.

“Taxi drivers who want to promote the language should be allowed to do so. It is not as if people will not know they are taxis,” said Kearns.

Sean Crowe, a Sinn Fein TD, has raised the issue with the Department of Transport. “The NCT is supposed to be about safety, but whether a sign is in Irish or not has nothing to do with safety, so this is just plain silly,” he said. The NCT, which is being criticised for following regulations too strictly, has repeatedly said that it has no option but to do so and has pointed out that it does not make the rules.

The department of transport, which does, said its attention had been drawn to the problem recently. Jim McDaid, the junior transport minister, has asked officials to address the matter.

Some taxi drivers are flouting the regulation anyway. Patrick Whelan and his wife, Helen, who run Carlow Cabs in Carlow, operate a fleet of taxis that use the Irish version of the sign. Last month an NCT garage refused to sanction two new cars owned by the Whelans as taxis because of their signs. Helen Whelan used stickers to get the cars passed, and has since reverted the signs back to their original state.

“I couldn’t believe it when they told me that two new cars had failed the test,” she said. “Plenty of taxis use Irish signs in Carlow because the language is strong here. This law is just stupid and shouldn’t be enforced.”

dcGT

Originally posted by BigEejit
my wifes car failed the nct today for not having the county name in Irish on the plate .... what prat came up with that rule I'd love to know ..

This is crazy. The NCT is for SAFE, CLEAN motoring. Do they have an agreement with Bord na Gaeilge too? I can abide having a certain colour/lettering/background on number plates. But why in God's name does this have any bearing on any safety aspect of the vehicle or impede the Gardai or anyone else from reading your number plate?

What's next?!

DC.

LegacyUser

From the Galway City Tribune last year:

‘Your number’s up’
warning to motorists
on registration plates

Hundreds of motorists around Galway with personalised number plates look set to fail the National Car Test following the introduction of stringent new changes by the Department of Transport.
And they also face fines of up to €1,265 if caught driving with the illegal licence plates.
Over the past few years, it has become commonplace for motorists to purchase personalised registration plates — which sell for between €15 and €20 — for their vehicles.
However, under legislation introduced in 1992 by the Revenue, number plates have to meet certain requirements.
That means a trend of printing number plates with personalised items such as the owner’s name instead of the county of registration, or the car manufacturer’s logo instead of the European flag, makes the plates illegal.
Some drivers also have highly-reflective plates — which are difficult for other motorists to read — in the mistaken belief that their registration number cannot be captured by Garda speed cameras.
According to the Vehicle Registration and Taxation Regulations 1992, the main requirements are:
o the assigned registration number comprised of numbers and letters in black on a white reflective background;
o the name of the county of registration in Irish;
o the flag of the European Community and the letters ‘IRL’ on the left-hand side of the plate, the flag comprising twelve gold stars in a circle, the letters in white beneath it, all on a blue reflective background.
"No other numbers, letters or marks etc. should appear on the plate. The use of registration plates in a format other than those shown above is prohibited by law and vehicle owners who use them may incur fines of up to €1,265," the regulations read.
The rules also specify that the plates must measure 520mm wide by 110mm in height for regular rectangular plates, or 340mm wide by 220mm in height for cars such as Japanese imports.
A spokesperson for the Revenue told the City Tribune: "These are VRT (Vehicle Registration Tax) regulations, but I would suspect the Gardai would have a real interest in these number plates, because some, like those printed in italics, can be difficult to read."


ends

frisket

Mine's just been failed (2008) for not having the name in Irish on the plates, despite having passed the previous two times without query at the same test centre. So it's likely just down to the anal-retentivity of the tester. He did sort-of apologise, saying it was the Guards who insisted on the name.

Q. Can you.actually buy Irish county name stickers to fix old plates?

If not I can easily fake it up. Just that buying them would be less hassle.

Alanstrainor

Dude. 14 years have passed since this thread was started.