Mobile Top-Ups in shops

Cabaal

Ok is it just me or is anyone else pissed off about going into shops and getting a O2 €20 Top-up and having to pay €20.20 or even €20.50 in some shops.

Its a joke, its like going into a shop and doing the Lotto anhd having to pay a sur-charge of 20c ontop of whatever you pay.

These machines are put in shops so customers come in and while they buy credit they might buy a sliced pan or a pint of milk etc.
Surely O2 or Vodafone can do something to these shops?

I'm just going to keep trying to top up from the ATM, its easier and faster most of the time.

eth0_

Originally posted by Cabaal

Surely O2 or Vodafone can do something to these shops?

It's the operators who are imposing the charge, not the shops!!!
Didn't you see all the noticed on newsagents windows about it? Some centra's etc don't have the charge imposed, i'm guessing because they sell the highest volume of credit.

The charge is there to cover the cost of the credit machine dialling up to complete the transaction.

Cabaal

Originally posted by eth0_
It's the operators who are imposing the charge, not the shops!!!

Never saw any such signs
oh well, it still pisses me off

Ripwave

Originally posted by Cabaal
Its a joke, its like going into a shop and doing the Lotto anhd having to pay a sur-charge of 20c ontop of whatever you pay.

What - you think the whole €1.50 for a line on the lotto goes to the National Lottery, and the shop does it for "free"?

Dream on!

From the 2002 Annual Report:

Our 3,500 agents around the country received €33.1 million, or 6.2% of sales, in commission and bonuses.

€33.1 Million!

Genghis

AFAICR the shops once got around 10-15% of the top-up value as commission - this was in the days of 'scratch card' top-up. Since the introduction of electronic top-ups their commission was dropped to 6%. The retailers, not pleased, decided to charge a surcharge, usually 10% to compnsate themselves for the lost commission. Fair enough, you might say, particularly if you have only read the Point of Sale propoganda.

When the retailing of top-up involved ordering various denominations of different network cards, storing these, securing these against theft, with the related cost and cash-flow burdens etc there was some justification for a double-digit commission. Under the new system which involves housing a small terminal full stop (no stock, no risk, no ordering, no shelved products). In fact in most cases this is not even a dedicated terminal, but the one retailers use to conduct electronic payment transactions. If they can accept 6% odd for lottery sales (which are, lets face it more complex - peak queue times, verifying winners, paying out prizes, large machine, dedicated till, etc.), then surely 6% for top-ups is not unreasonable.

The fact that the surcharges still exist is simply down to people paying them - one of the best examples of Irish consumers being nonchalent in the face of blatant extortionism.

byte

Go to your local Post Office or a shop with "Post Point" stickers as they don't charge extra.

Asok

I mailed 02 about this a while back when i saw that there was surcharges being charged on 02 topups this was their reply

Dear *******

Thank you for contacting 02 Customer Care via email. We are completely
opposed to surcharging on our top-ups, however under competition law we
cannot force a retailer not to surcharge. We can recommend to our
customers
that they purchase top-ups from retail stores that do not surcharge our
product or else through the other top-up methods available e.g. ATM,
Credit/Debit card etc.'

The following groups will not be surcharging:


* Xtra vision

* Tesco

* Statoil

* O2 Retail

* Easons Bookstores

* Carphone Warehouse

* Spectra Photo

* Post Offices

* Independent Mobile Dealers

Kind Regards

**************
02 Customer Care

Cabaal

So is this proof that O2 atleast don't charge the 20c etc, did'ent someone earlier say they do?

Calibos

Genghis. "He's kinda got a point" I thought to myself with regard to the lotto. I'm still torn on the issue though. I work in the family newsagents btw. The lotto analogy is valid from a certain point of view. The thing is though that we always got 6% from the lotto from day 1. With the phone cards as they originally were, it was a case of........(though my figures might be slightly out)

Telecom- Please sell our cards for us
Us- Wont kids spend their pocket money on their mobile phone top ups instead of on standard margin(20-21%) sweets??
Telecom- Dont be silly, kids with mobiles Pfft:rolleyes: I tell ya what I'll do. I'll give ya 12% commission on sales. I know its nearly half standard margin and its another low margin product with the lotto and cigarettes taking up customer disposable income, but hey we promise you 12%, waddaya say??
Us-Well....OK

.............a year or 2 later..............

Telecom- Hey ya know we said 12% well we are reducing the margin on the cards to 8%-
Us- hold on,you said......
Telecom-Let me finish. We have these new electronic top up machines and if you change to them we'll let you have 10%
Us- 10%??
Telecom- I know what you're thinking but just think you wont have to maintain stock on the premises, less of a security risk etc
Us- Well ok

..............a year or 2 later................

Telecom-We are reducing your commission to 5% to upgrade the network etc which will boost your top up turnover
Us- Ya what?? Increase your phone charges or pay less dividend to your shareholders to pay for the upgrading??
Telecom-We cant increase phone charges cause we are already the most expensive in Europe and we cant reduce dividends cause em...we just cant
Us- and how can you increase our top up turnover when everyone and their granny has a mobile. There are already more mobiles than people in this country
Telecom- Well em....
Us- Its a fixed denomination product, if I charge more it looks like I am ripping people off.
Telecom- Yeah, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place aren't ya. hehe TOUGH!!

When a customer sees a bar of chocolate costs 20c more than average he knows that particular shop is taking the piss. When a bar goes up a few cents everywhere he knows that its the manufacturer, distributer etc that put up the price and the retailer is just doing likewise to maintain his percentage margin. They dont expect us to take the hit everytime the manufacturer puts up the price. The problem with the top ups is that its fixed denominations.

We hoped that threatening pulling the cards or adding a surcharge to maintain the originally agreed margins would make the telecoms back down but unfortunately............

I have to laugh at garages for example proudly exclaiming that they don't charge a surcharge...pity they charge 20c more on average for all their minerals and confectionery.

When I try to explain to people they listen for a few seconds and then just go "yeah yeah whatever...here is the extra 40c" I am the biggest critic of ripoff Ireland and I can accept even that most newsagents are overcharging on everything so I can understand people not believing us but on this issue its not cut and dry.

Urban Weigl

Calibos, this is not intended as a flame, but I'm sure 2 years ago ye made a lot less on mobile top ups, since the mobile phone companies have done so much marketing everyone has a mobile now, you admit yourself.

I hate the mobile phone companies *cringes at having europes most expensive mobile phone bills*, but I think my point is still valid. It doesn't distract from the fact that mobile operators in ireland charge too much for calls.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Calibos, this is not intended as a flame, but I'm sure 2 years ago ye made a lot less on mobile top ups, since the mobile phone companies have done so much marketing everyone has a mobile now, you admit yourself.

I hate the mobile phone companies *cringes at having europes most expensive mobile phone bills*, but I think my point is still valid. It doesn't distract from the fact that mobile operators in ireland charge too much for calls.

You have a very short memory - Ireland has had one of the highest ownership of mobiles in Europe for a lot longer than 2 years.

Calibos explanation is true - the phone companies used to provide a cut for the retailers, but they cut it back repeatedly in the last few years. Retailers added the "handling fee" (and, if I remember, got a rap on the knuckles from the competition authority when they "colluded" by having a standard handling fee organized through their trade organization, but I might be wrong about that).

Genghis

Calibos,

That is an interesting perspective, and I can certainly appreciate any business persons reluctance for accepting a lower margin on items they sell. However, I still think my argument stands:

1. You are selling a slip of paper (i.e. something of token value)
2. You do not have to order in advance or hold in stock any item (in spite of there being 3 or 4 denominations and 3 networks)
3. There is no security, stock-holding or cashflow risk
4. You already accept 6% as a margin for similar 'token sales' (Lotto)
5. Many other retailers accept these margins

In addition,

1. The market has changed fundamentally since mobile credit was introduced in 1997:

a. One Network only (Eircell) - now 3 offer prepay mobiles
b. Prepay now larger market than postpay
c. Mobile penetration now more than 80%

While I can't find figures to support my argument, I would estimate that revenues from mobile top-up today compared to those at the time scratchcards began to disappear (say, 1998/99) must have grown by a factor of 4-5 times.


2. The traditional top-sellers (by turnover) for newsagents are Tobacco, Newspaper and Lotto sales - correct me if I am wrong, but don't these command single-digit margins too? If mobile top-ups have become a top-seller by turnover too (and my guess is they have), then why is a 5/6% margin so unacceptable?

3. While there might have been merit in the fear that 'top-up would replace sweet sales from children' in the early days, can you honestly claim that that fear manifested itself in the years that followed?


I am afraid I remain to be convinced of the argument for applying surcharges to mobile top-up credit.

gucci

Originally posted by byte
Go to your local Post Office or a shop with "Post Point" stickers as they don't charge extra.

Theirs a Londis in Tarmonbarry co.Roscommon who proudly display this sticker,put your credit in a nice POST OFFICE little folder thingy and still charge you 40c!!!

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by Ripwave
You have a very short memory - Ireland has had one of the highest ownership of mobiles in Europe for a lot longer than 2 years.

The last statistics I found on Google were that Spain had the highest mobile phone ownership in Europe, but those were 3 years old. Anyway, what I did actually say was that mobile phone ownership in Ireland has GONE UP during this time. I.e. it hasn't remained static over the past few years.

Syth

I just use the local ATM to top up, it's handy and i can keep track of how much i spend, but sometimes it's broken and I'm screwed.

Reads in Nassau street doesn't charge any surcharge.

Anyone know if it's possible to do it with online banking (especially with bank of ireland)?

byte

Originally posted by gucci
Theirs a Londis in Tarmonbarry co.Roscommon who proudly display this sticker,put your credit in a nice POST OFFICE little folder thingy and still charge you 40c!!!

Hmm, I had assumed that all Post Point shops were supposed to charge the same as a Post Office for this kinda stuff. I'm obviously wrong!

oneweb

AIB do "top-up by text". Freephone text number. Haven't used it yet tho.

Stark

If you've a credit card you can top up on your operator's website. They also have a text message system where you text them (I think they have to have your card details stored somewhere) and they topup your account for you.

byte

AIB also allowed you to top up via the ATM, and before Christmas, you got extra 10% credit.

Cabaal

Surely we can start a name and shame type of thing for shops charging extra for credit, pay-as-u-go phones calls are expensive enough without a surcharge being added when you actually want the credit put onto your phone.

Stark

Think there already is something like that. There's a list of shops that don't charge it anyway somewhere AFAIK.